[OSList] Zappos Being Zapped
Daniel Mezick via OSList
oslist at lists.openspacetech.org
Sat Jul 18 07:35:13 PDT 2015
Hi Rosa,
In my very limited experience, what happens is the formally-authorized
leaders (not to be confused with "informally-authorized" leaders) either
a) warm up to shifting how the handle authority, or b) they do not. Or,
c) they pause for awhile... and then shift after they have integrated
the learning from recent experience (almost) letting go.
So for example in a large bank with over 30K employees, I helped with 2
OST events inside a division of about 2500 people. We did 2 large events
of 400 seats each, in two different cities. The hosts or sponsors of
these events to this day are still constrained by the following:
1. They are not omnipotent across the organization, and can only do what
they are formally authorized to do. They cannot for example repeal the
formal hierarchy. Even in their own small division...
2. They have their own personal integration-of-learning to do, before
being comfortable with going any further with the OST/self-organized
approach.
This is why I think periodic OST events about every 6 months makes great
sense for most organizations who seek . Because truth be told, the space
is often returns to being closed, tight as clam.
And if by chance we do open some space, in typical well-established
orgs, the natural tendency seems to be... to close again.
Regards,
Daniel
On 7/18/15 10:13 AM, Rosa Zubizarreta wrote:
> Daniel, I hear you mention repeatedly, that mandating stuff doesn't work.
>
> I fully agree with you.
> "Mandating stuff is a recipe for disaster."
> I agree.
>
> What's happening at Zappo's is nuts.
> I agree.
>
> I also agree with Harrison about the power and prevalence of the
> informal organization, everywhere.
> And, about the power of Open Space Technology to offer a "speeded up,
> concentrated experience of self-organization in action."
>
> what I was curious about (and I realize I didn't express it so
> clearly...) was about what happens /after/ OST events...
> I'm curious to know, whether people in the organizations you know,
> generally remain content with having the hierarchical
> "patterns and flows of energy" remain in place (maybe as a sort of
> decoy??) while the informal organization continues in a more energized
> manner...
>
> or, if you have seen sometimes, a self-organizing move to create a
> "pattern or flow of energy" that "flash-framed", looks different than
> a triangle.
>
> (again.. NOT like what happened at Zappos. NOT "mandated from above".)
>
> I realize I have been making a (possibly unfounded) assumption that
> this is not happening very much.
> And, it may be that I am just uninformed...
>
> Another way of wording it...
> I'm curious to learn about instances where the
> already-happening-everywhere-self-organization,
> after being "speeded up and concentrated" via OST,
> leads to new structures (i.e. "freeze-framed patterns and flows of
> energy")
> that look different than the older ones.
>
> Feels like a valid question to me,
> yet not sure if this is the place to ask it...
>
> and, I am still sad that the tragically flawed circus at Zappos is
> giving participatory management a bad name.
> I do wish they had listened to you, Daniel.
>
> And/ or, to anyone else who might have helped them understand,
> that it's crazy-making and doomed to "mandate participation".
>
> with all best wishes,
>
> Rosa
>
>
> /Rosa Zubizarreta
> /
> /*www.DiaPraxis.com* <http://www.DiaPraxis.com>
>
> /
> Author of *From Conflict to Creative Collaboration*
> <http://www.conflict2creativity.com>
> *recent Dynamic Facilitation deep dives:*
> May 26-28**near*Bonn, Germany <http://tinyurl.com/DFGermany2015>;*
> June 12-16 in *Durham, NC
> <http://www.solutiongeneratorsnetwork.org/1.0/dynamic-facilitation/>*<http://www.solutiongeneratorsnetwork.org/1.0/dynamic-facilitation/>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 18, 2015 at 9:13 AM, Daniel Mezick via OSList
> <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org
> <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>> wrote:
>
> I join Harrison is what he is saying.
>
> "...if we want a speeded up, concentrated experience of self
> organization in action, we know what to do."
>
> One time on the phone talking about this, Harrison (paraphasing,)
> you said:
>
>
> "..the real operating system is self-organization. Everything is
> is [an app.]"
>
> I like that quote.
>
>
>
> Quoting the NYT article: some interesting items in it....
>
>
>
> "The end result was what he refers to as an “operating system” for
> organizations."
>
> ...stop right there:
> the holacracy people are really pushing this metaphor. "holacracy
> as operating system." Maybe not? Or maybe (scary idea)
> organizations are not machines at all. Maybe they are living
> systems? Which are not quite so easy to describe, manipulate,
> "program" ...and control?
>
>
>
>
> "... Everyone must use the Holacracy software, called Glass Frog."
>
> ...wait:
> Everyone MUST use? Really? How's that mandate actually working out?
>
>
>
>
> "... Holacracy has been met with everything from cautious embrace
> to outright revulsion at Zappos, but little unequivocal enthusiasm."
>
> ...stop right there.
> Maybe coercion is actually a bad idea?
>
>
>
>
> "....I have five hours of meetings today.”"
>
> ...stop right there:
> Are these meeting mandatory to attend? Can you opt-out of any of
> these "holacracy" meetings? Guessing no...
>
>
>
> "... Mr. Hsieh sent a 4,700-word email to the entire company with
> an ultimatum: Embrace Holacracy or accept a buyout. "
>
> ...wait: an ultimatum? Does that actually work?
> The spin is that all remaining employees are now "all-in." The
> reality is probably quite far from that:
> https://medium.com/@DanielMezick/zappos-holacracy-and-real-options-don-t-commit-early-unless-you-know-why-ba8a7741b1b
>
>
> "... For all of the talk of self-management and consensus
> building, the decision to go down this path was Mr. Hsieh’s alone."
>
> Wait:
> Is this a command, from authority, to self-organize? If so, how
> does that actually work?
>
>
>
> "...Mr. Hsieh he emphasized that learning Holacracy was like
> learning a sport — it would take years to get good at it."
>
> stop.right.there:
> Could this be code for "it could take years to */replace/*
> everyone." ????
>
> If so, is this the new normal? Replace everyone? Does that
> actually count as a successful change/innovation program?
>
> https://medium.com/@DanielMezick/adopting-holacracy-at-zappos-6664d70c0b5d
>
>
>
>
> Self-organization: Do coercive mandates actually work?
>
> If not: Is this what actually might scale? Is this what actually
> might work?
>
>
>
>
>
> Daniel
>
>
>
>
> On 7/18/15 8:05 AM, Harrison via OSList wrote:
>>
>> Rosa said... “I do think it would be kinda fun for all of that
>> self-organizing that is already happening anyway, to come up with
>> some alternative structures to the regular old pyramids we see
>> all over the place...a bit of color in the landscape, as it were...”
>>
>> Rosa --There is a big secret. “All that self-organizing” is
>> coming up with new structures every moment. “Structure” is
>> actually an inaccurate way of talking about what is happening...
>> more like patterns or flow of energy. “Flash framed” it does look
>> like a structure, but that is really an illusion. An artifact of
>> our perception. But it sort of works.
>>
>> Anyhow, it seems to me that there is some 13.7 billion years
>> worth of examples of just precisely what you are talking about.
>> It is only very recently that we (Homo sapiens) tried doing our
>> own thing. Lots of wonderful names (Process re-engineering, etc)
>> but precious little positive impact that I can see. Yes I know
>> sometimes it seems that these marvelous inventions of ours seem
>> to work...and of course lots of people make lots of money
>> maintaining the illusion. But in moments of honesty, usually over
>> a drink, everybody who has been around, even for a little bit, is
>> totally aware that nothing ever happened according to the plan,
>> design, etc... When pushed for source, the usual answer (given
>> very quietly) is “The Informal System,” which by definition
>> nobody organized. And that drives Management to despair. In fact
>> they try to kill “the informal system” at every opportunity.
>>
>> Amazing, folks are busily containing, controlling, and destroying
>> the one thing that enables organizations to function. Is that
>> nuts? Seems to me that before we design anything new, it would be
>> well to sit quietly and fully appreciate what is already there,
>> and doing quite well. Thank you. And of course if we want a
>> speeded up, concentrated experience of self organization in
>> action, we know what to do. Works every time as long as we don’t
>> try to organize it. Wonderful!
>>
>> Harrison
>>
>> Winter Address
>>
>> 7808 River Falls Drive
>>
>> Potomac, MD 20854
>>
>> 301-365-2093 <tel:301-365-2093>
>>
>> Summer Address
>>
>> 189 Beaucaire Ave.
>>
>> Camden, ME 04843
>>
>> 207-763-3261 <tel:207-763-3261>
>>
>> Websites
>>
>> www.openspaceworld.com <http://%20www.openspaceworld.com>
>>
>> www.ho-image.com <http://www.ho-image.com>
>>
>> OSLIST To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the
>> archives of OSLIST Go
>> to:http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>>
>> *From:*OSList [mailto:oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org] *On
>> Behalf Of *Rosa Zubizarreta via OSList
>>
>>
>> *Sent:* Friday, July 17, 2015 10:05 PM
>> *To:* Daniel Mezick; World wide Open Space Technology email list
>> *Subject:* Re: [OSList] Zappos Being Zapped
>>
>> Yes, Daniel, as you wrote, "mandating a process change is a
>> recipe for disaster."
>>
>> REGARDLESS of what the process is...
>> but ESPECIALLY if it's one that's supposed to "help people feel
>> more empowered".
>>
>> for me, it's sad to see what's happening at Zappo's.
>>
>> especially because i happen to think that interlocking circles is
>> a fairly decent structure,
>>
>> as far as structures go...
>>
>> I'm not so much of a fan of the decision-making aspect of
>> holocracy/sociocracy...
>>
>> but the structural part feels fairly sound to me.
>>
>> i know the orthodoxy around here is that "it's all
>> self-organizing anyway"...
>>
>> at the same time, I do think it would be kinda fun for all of
>> that self-organizing that is already happening anyway,
>>
>> to come up with some alternative structures to the regular old
>> pyramids we see all over the place...
>>
>> a bit of color in the landscape, as it were...
>>
>> i guess we're just not that evolved yet! :-)
>>
>> with all best wishes,
>>
>> Rosa
>>
>>
>> /Rosa Zubizarreta/
>>
>> /*www.DiaPraxis.com* <http://www.DiaPraxis.com>/
>>
>> Author of *From Conflict to Creative Collaboration*
>> <http://www.conflict2creativity.com>
>>
>> *recent Dynamic Facilitation deep dives:*
>> May 26-28**near*Bonn, Germany
>> <http://tinyurl.com/DFGermany2015>;* June 12-16 in *Durham, NC
>> <http://www.solutiongeneratorsnetwork.org/1.0/dynamic-facilitation/>*<http://www.solutiongeneratorsnetwork.org/1.0/dynamic-facilitation/>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 7:08 PM, Daniel Mezick via OSList
>> <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org
>> <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>> wrote:
>>
>> Sheesh. Yes, and...
>>
>> ..I did some consulting for Zappos in prior years. As part of
>> that, I know Tony and have taken some meals with him, some at his
>> home.
>>
>> In early 2014, I had lunch with Tony and some of his staff. A
>> very dear friend arranged the meeting.
>>
>> The purpose was to introduce him to Open Space and discuss how it
>> might be a good tool for helping encourage self-organization at
>> the Downtown project (DTP) and Zappos proper. During that meal, I
>> left him with a printed copy of the BRIEF GUIDE, and some
>> pictures of what OST in action looks like. Not too much stuff,
>> just enough to hopefully get him interested. A kind of invitation
>> as it were.
>>
>> At the time, he described some issues with "holacracy" at the DTP
>> and Zappos itself. I explained how OST might actually be perfect
>> given the situation an timing. I left the meeting upbeat and
>> thinking he might go all the way.
>>
>> It didn't take.
>>
>> Later in March 2014, I wrote this:
>> http://newtechusa.net/agile/the-mandate-of-holacracy-at-zappos/
>>
>>
>> The self-organizing universe creates stories you just cannot make
>> up.
>>
>> Example:
>> https://pando.com/2015/07/08/staff-tony-hsiehs-downtown-project-voted-abandon-holacracy-nine-months-ago/fcbd6b7081af428b88d24fddd3fbadfbee6910ea/
>>
>> Regards,
>> Daniel
>>
>> On 7/17/15 5:26 PM, Harrison via OSList wrote:
>>
>> From the New York Times: *http://nyti.ms/1Jn1nwh *
>> <http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=InCMR7g4BCKC2wiZPkcVUlDMaFOsPrCW&user_id=d0877bb1019932ce3160783833511913&email_type=eta&task_id=1437166724712134®i_id=0> Do
>> Love this story. Zappo is going to install holarchical, self
>> organizing management systems. How many oxymoron’s can you
>> get in one sentence? And according to the Times, the big
>> problem is that nobody can understand what is going on.
>> Marvelous! – As bright as Homo sapiens may be, we really
>> don’t have clue when it comes to the complex, interconnected
>> world on which we are momentarily passengers. But no worries.
>> It really doesn’t depend on “our understanding.” A fact that
>> “we” all experience each and every time we have the privilege
>> of “Opening Space.” We don’t understand it. We don’t “do
>> it.” Seems to happen pretty much by itself. Just
>> marvelous... Holarchical, self organizing, management system!
>> Happens every time. All by itself.
>>
>> Harrison
>>
>> Winter Address
>>
>> 7808 River Falls Drive
>>
>> Potomac, MD 20854
>>
>> 301-365-2093 <tel:301-365-2093>
>>
>> Summer Address
>>
>> 189 Beaucaire Ave.
>>
>> Camden, ME 04843
>>
>> 207-763-3261 <tel:207-763-3261>
>>
>> Websites
>>
>> www.openspaceworld.com <http://%20www.openspaceworld.com>
>>
>> www.ho-image.com <http://www.ho-image.com>
>>
>> OSLIST To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view
>> the archives of OSLIST Go
>> to:http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
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>>
>> --
>>
>> Daniel Mezick, President
>>
>> New Technology Solutions Inc.
>>
>> (203) 915 7248 <tel:%28203%29%20915%207248> (cell)
>>
>> Bio <http://newtechusa.net/dan-mezick/>. Blog
>> <http://newtechusa.net/blog/>. Twitter
>> <http://twitter.com/#%21/danmezick/>.
>>
>> Examine my new book: The Culture Game
>> <http://newtechusa.net/about/the-culture-game-book/>: Tools for
>> the Agile Manager.
>>
>> Explore Agile Team Training
>> <http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-training/> and
>> Coaching. <http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-coaching/>
>>
>> Explore the Agile Boston
>> <http://newtechusa.net/user-groups/ma/>Community.
>>
>>
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>
> --
>
> Daniel Mezick, President
>
> New Technology Solutions Inc.
>
> (203) 915 7248 <tel:%28203%29%20915%207248> (cell)
>
> Bio <http://newtechusa.net/dan-mezick/>. Blog
> <http://newtechusa.net/blog/>. Twitter
> <http://twitter.com/#%21/danmezick/>.
>
> Examine my new book:The Culture Game
> <http://newtechusa.net/about/the-culture-game-book/>: Tools for
> the Agile Manager.
>
> Explore Agile Team Training
> <http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-training/> and
> Coaching. <http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-coaching/>
>
> Explore the Agile Boston
> <http://newtechusa.net//user-groups/ma/>Community.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
--
Daniel Mezick, President
New Technology Solutions Inc.
(203) 915 7248 (cell)
Bio <http://newtechusa.net/dan-mezick/>. Blog
<http://newtechusa.net/blog/>. Twitter <http://twitter.com/#%21/danmezick/>.
Examine my new book:The Culture Game
<http://newtechusa.net/about/the-culture-game-book/>: Tools for the
Agile Manager.
Explore Agile Team Training
<http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-training/> and Coaching.
<http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-coaching/>
Explore the Agile Boston <http://newtechusa.net//user-groups/ma/>Community.
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