[OSList] Zappos Being Zapped

Rosa Zubizarreta via OSList oslist at lists.openspacetech.org
Sat Jul 18 07:13:13 PDT 2015


Daniel, I hear you mention repeatedly, that mandating stuff doesn't work.

I fully agree with you.
"Mandating stuff is a recipe for disaster."
I agree.

What's happening at Zappo's is nuts.
I agree.

I also agree with Harrison about the power and prevalence of the informal
organization, everywhere.
And, about the power of Open Space Technology to offer a "speeded up,
concentrated experience of self-organization in action."

what I was curious about (and I realize I didn't express it so clearly...)
was about what happens *after* OST events...
I'm curious to know, whether people in the organizations you know,
generally remain content with having the hierarchical
"patterns and flows of energy" remain in place (maybe as a sort of decoy??)
while the informal organization continues in a more energized manner...

or, if you have seen sometimes, a self-organizing move to create a "pattern
or flow of energy" that "flash-framed", looks different than a triangle.

(again.. NOT like what happened at Zappos. NOT "mandated from above".)

I realize I have been making a (possibly unfounded) assumption that this is
not happening very much.
And, it may be that I am just uninformed...

Another way of wording it...
I'm curious to learn about instances where the
already-happening-everywhere-self-organization,
after being "speeded up and concentrated" via OST,
leads to new structures (i.e. "freeze-framed patterns and flows of energy")
that look different than the older ones.

Feels like a valid question to me,
yet not sure if this is the place to ask it...

and, I am still sad that the tragically flawed circus at Zappos is giving
participatory management a bad name.
I do wish they had listened to you, Daniel.

And/ or, to anyone else who might have helped them understand,
that it's crazy-making and doomed to "mandate participation".

with all best wishes,

Rosa



*Rosa Zubizarreta*


*www.DiaPraxis.com <http://www.DiaPraxis.com>*
Author of *From Conflict to Creative Collaboration*
<http://www.conflict2creativity.com>
*recent Dynamic Facilitation deep dives:*
May 26-28 near* Bonn, Germany <http://tinyurl.com/DFGermany2015>;*  June
12-16 in *Durham, NC
<http://www.solutiongeneratorsnetwork.org/1.0/dynamic-facilitation/>*
<http://www.solutiongeneratorsnetwork.org/1.0/dynamic-facilitation/>


On Sat, Jul 18, 2015 at 9:13 AM, Daniel Mezick via OSList <
oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:

>  I join Harrison is what he is saying.
>
> "...if we want a speeded up, concentrated experience of self organization
> in action, we know what to do."
>
> One time on the phone talking about this, Harrison (paraphasing,)  you
> said:
>
>
> "..the real operating system is self-organization. Everything is is [an
> app.]"
>
> I like that quote.
>
>
>
> Quoting the NYT article: some interesting items in it....
>
>
>
> "The end result was what he refers to as an “operating system” for
> organizations."
>
> ...stop right there:
> the holacracy people are really pushing this metaphor. "holacracy as
> operating system." Maybe not? Or maybe (scary idea) organizations are not
> machines at all. Maybe they are living systems? Which are not quite so easy
> to describe, manipulate, "program" ...and control?
>
>
>
>
> "... Everyone must use the Holacracy software, called Glass Frog."
>
> ...wait:
> Everyone MUST use? Really? How's that mandate actually working out?
>
>
>
>
> "... Holacracy has been met with everything from cautious embrace to
> outright revulsion at Zappos, but little unequivocal enthusiasm."
>
> ...stop right there.
> Maybe coercion is actually a bad idea?
>
>
>
>
> "....I have five hours of meetings today.”"
>
> ...stop right there:
> Are these meeting mandatory to attend? Can you opt-out of any of these
> "holacracy" meetings? Guessing no...
>
>
>
> "... Mr. Hsieh sent a 4,700-word email to the entire company with an
> ultimatum: Embrace Holacracy or accept a buyout. "
>
> ...wait: an ultimatum? Does that actually work?
> The spin is that all remaining employees are now "all-in." The reality is
> probably quite far from that:
>
> https://medium.com/@DanielMezick/zappos-holacracy-and-real-options-don-t-commit-early-unless-you-know-why-ba8a7741b1b
>
>
> "... For all of the talk of self-management and consensus building, the
> decision to go down this path was Mr. Hsieh’s alone."
>
> Wait:
> Is this a command, from authority, to self-organize? If so, how does that
> actually work?
>
>
>
> "...Mr. Hsieh he emphasized that learning Holacracy was like learning a
> sport — it would take years to get good at it."
>
> stop.right.there:
> Could this be code for "it could take years to *replace* everyone."  ????
>
> If so, is this the new normal? Replace everyone? Does that actually count
> as a successful change/innovation program?
>
> https://medium.com/@DanielMezick/adopting-holacracy-at-zappos-6664d70c0b5d
>
>
>
>
> Self-organization: Do coercive mandates actually work?
>
> If not: Is this what actually might scale? Is this what actually might
> work?
>
>
>
>
>
> Daniel
>
>
>
>
> On 7/18/15 8:05 AM, Harrison via OSList wrote:
>
>  Rosa said... “I do think it would be kinda fun for all of that
> self-organizing that is already happening anyway, to come up with some
> alternative structures to the regular old pyramids we see all over the
> place...a bit of color in the landscape, as it were...”
>
>
>
> Rosa --There is a big secret. “All that self-organizing” is coming up with
> new structures every moment. “Structure” is actually an inaccurate way of
> talking about what is happening... more like patterns or flow of energy.
> “Flash framed” it does look like a structure, but that is really an
> illusion. An artifact of our perception. But it sort of works.
>
>
>
> Anyhow, it seems to me that there is some 13.7 billion years worth of
> examples of just precisely what you are talking about. It is only very
> recently that we (Homo sapiens) tried doing our own thing. Lots of
> wonderful names (Process re-engineering, etc) but precious little positive
> impact that I can see. Yes I know sometimes it seems that these marvelous
> inventions of ours seem to work...and of course lots of people make lots of
> money maintaining the illusion. But in moments of honesty, usually over a
> drink, everybody who has been around, even for a little bit, is totally
> aware that nothing ever happened according to the plan, design, etc... When
> pushed for source, the usual answer (given very quietly) is “The Informal
> System,” which by definition nobody organized. And that drives Management
> to despair. In fact they try to kill “the informal system” at every
> opportunity.
>
>
>
> Amazing, folks are busily containing, controlling, and destroying the one
> thing that enables organizations to function. Is that nuts? Seems to me
> that before we design anything new, it would be well to sit quietly and
> fully appreciate what is already there, and doing quite well. Thank you.
> And of course if we want a speeded up, concentrated experience of self
> organization in action, we know what to do. Works every time as long as we
> don’t try to organize it. Wonderful!
>
>
>
> Harrison
>
>
>
>
>
> Winter Address
>
> 7808 River Falls Drive
>
> Potomac, MD 20854
>
> 301-365-2093
>
>
>
> Summer Address
>
> 189 Beaucaire Ave.
>
> Camden, ME 04843
>
> 207-763-3261
>
>
>
> Websites
>
> www.openspaceworld.com <http://%20www.openspaceworld.com>
>
> www.ho-image.com
>
> OSLIST To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives
> of OSLIST Go to:
> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>
>
>
> *From:* OSList [mailto:oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org
> <oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org>] *On Behalf Of *Rosa Zubizarreta
> via OSList
>
> *Sent:* Friday, July 17, 2015 10:05 PM
> *To:* Daniel Mezick; World wide Open Space Technology email list
> *Subject:* Re: [OSList] Zappos Being Zapped
>
>
>
> Yes, Daniel, as you wrote, "mandating a process change is a recipe for
> disaster."
>
> REGARDLESS of what the process is...
> but ESPECIALLY if it's one that's supposed to "help people feel more
> empowered".
>
> for me, it's sad to see what's happening at Zappo's.
>
> especially because i happen to think that interlocking circles is a fairly
> decent structure,
>
> as far as structures go...
>
>
>
> I'm not so much of a fan of the decision-making aspect of
> holocracy/sociocracy...
>
> but the structural part feels fairly sound to me.
>
> i know the orthodoxy around here is that "it's all self-organizing
> anyway"...
>
> at the same time, I do think it would be kinda fun for all of that
> self-organizing that is already happening anyway,
>
> to come up with some alternative structures to the regular old pyramids we
> see all over the place...
>
> a bit of color in the landscape, as it were...
>
>
>
> i guess we're just not that evolved yet! :-)
>
> with all best wishes,
>
> Rosa
>
>
>                      *Rosa Zubizarreta*
>
> *www.DiaPraxis.com <http://www.DiaPraxis.com>*
>
> Author of *From Conflict to Creative Collaboration*
> <http://www.conflict2creativity.com>
>
> *recent Dynamic Facilitation deep dives:*
> May 26-28 near* Bonn, Germany <http://tinyurl.com/DFGermany2015>;*  June
> 12-16 in *Durham, NC
> <http://www.solutiongeneratorsnetwork.org/1.0/dynamic-facilitation/>*
> <http://www.solutiongeneratorsnetwork.org/1.0/dynamic-facilitation/>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 7:08 PM, Daniel Mezick via OSList <
> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>
> Sheesh. Yes, and...
>
> ..I did some consulting for Zappos in prior years. As part of that, I know
> Tony and have taken some meals with him, some at his home.
>
> In early 2014, I had lunch with Tony and some of his staff. A very dear
> friend arranged the meeting.
>
> The purpose was to introduce him to Open Space and discuss how it might be
> a good tool for helping encourage self-organization at the Downtown project
> (DTP) and Zappos proper. During that meal, I left him with a printed copy
> of the BRIEF GUIDE, and some pictures of what OST in action looks like. Not
> too much stuff, just enough to hopefully get him interested. A kind of
> invitation as it were.
>
> At the time, he described some issues with "holacracy" at the DTP and
> Zappos itself. I explained how OST might actually be perfect given the
> situation an timing. I left the meeting upbeat and thinking he might go all
> the way.
>
> It didn't take.
>
> Later in March 2014, I wrote this:
> http://newtechusa.net/agile/the-mandate-of-holacracy-at-zappos/
>
>
> The self-organizing universe creates stories you just cannot make up.
>
> Example:
>
> https://pando.com/2015/07/08/staff-tony-hsiehs-downtown-project-voted-abandon-holacracy-nine-months-ago/fcbd6b7081af428b88d24fddd3fbadfbee6910ea/
>
> Regards,
> Daniel
>
>
>
> On 7/17/15 5:26 PM, Harrison via OSList wrote:
>
>   From the New York Times: *http://nyti.ms/1Jn1nwh *
> <http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=InCMR7g4BCKC2wiZPkcVUlDMaFOsPrCW&user_id=d0877bb1019932ce3160783833511913&email_type=eta&task_id=1437166724712134&regi_id=0> Do
> Love this story. Zappo is going to install holarchical, self organizing
> management systems.  How many oxymoron’s can you get in one sentence? And
> according to the Times, the big problem is that nobody can understand what
> is going on. Marvelous! – As bright as Homo sapiens may be, we really don’t
> have clue when it comes to the complex, interconnected world on which we
> are momentarily passengers. But no worries. It really doesn’t depend on
> “our understanding.” A fact that “we” all experience each and every time we
> have the privilege of “Opening Space.” We don’t understand it. We don’t “do
> it.”  Seems to happen pretty much by itself. Just marvelous... Holarchical,
> self organizing, management system! Happens every time. All by itself.
>
>
>
> Harrison
>
>
>
> Winter Address
>
> 7808 River Falls Drive
>
> Potomac, MD 20854
>
> 301-365-2093
>
>
>
> Summer Address
>
> 189 Beaucaire Ave.
>
> Camden, ME 04843
>
> 207-763-3261
>
>
>
> Websites
>
> www.openspaceworld.com <http://%20www.openspaceworld.com>
>
> www.ho-image.com
>
> OSLIST To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives
> of OSLIST Go to:
> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
> --
>
> Daniel Mezick, President
>
> New Technology Solutions Inc.
>
> (203) 915 7248 <%28203%29%20915%207248> (cell)
>
> Bio <http://newtechusa.net/dan-mezick/>. Blog
> <http://newtechusa.net/blog/>. Twitter
> <http://twitter.com/#%21/danmezick/>.
>
> Examine my new book:  The Culture Game
> <http://newtechusa.net/about/the-culture-game-book/>: Tools for the Agile
> Manager.
>
> Explore Agile Team Training
> <http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-training/> and Coaching.
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>
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>
>
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>
> --
>
> Daniel Mezick, President
>
> New Technology Solutions Inc.
>
> (203) 915 7248 (cell)
>
> Bio <http://newtechusa.net/dan-mezick/>. Blog
> <http://newtechusa.net/blog/>. Twitter
> <http://twitter.com/#%21/danmezick/>.
>
> Examine my new book:  The Culture Game
> <http://newtechusa.net/about/the-culture-game-book/>: Tools for the Agile
> Manager.
>
> Explore Agile Team Training
> <http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-training/> and Coaching.
> <http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-coaching/>
>
> Explore the Agile Boston <http://newtechusa.net//user-groups/ma/>
> Community.
>
> _______________________________________________
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