[OSList] Zappos Being Zapped

Sat Jul 18 08:42:05 PDT 2015

Rosa – You are coming through loud and clear. And not only is it appropriate to pose such issues here, but “here” is probably one of the few “places” such heretical questions can be raised. So carry on!

There is one very important “a priori” for me when it comes to answering your questions about what happens next... That is: It is all self organizing, even in those situation where we actually thought we were doing the organizing. So the issue (for me) is never about “becoming self organizing”. You already are. The critical question is, How well are you (whatever organization) doing it? I think it fair to say that most people are not doing it very well. There are also lots of people who are not only “doing self organization” badly, but fighting every inch of the way. For those folks, a bad situation has become toxic. I suspect we all know of places like that. The tension is so thick you can cut it, fear  is the dominant modality, and smiling is totally against the law. I call it Soul Pollution. 

So what happens after an “open space” even in a toxic environment with massive Soul Pollution? After 30 years and God knows how many situations I can truthfully say I have never seen the Kingdom of God, Nirvana, Ideal Organization... whatever... break forth.  And I am pretty sure that if I had another 30 years (God forbid), my observation would remain unchanged. However...

I have seen situations where everybody in the organization recognized how sick it was and they simply dissolved the organization. Progress I think. I have seen sworn enemies (who spent a lot of time killing each other) finding common space, even to the point of hugging each other. I have received calls from all sorts of people, senior executives to the shop floor,  telling me that they now knew that life where they were was impossible and they had to leave, and could I help.  And more and more and more... Seems like getting over a serious malaise takes a little doing, one step at a time, so to speak. But for  sure the first step is to recognize how sick/pained/compromised/....  you are. That recognition in itself can be quite shocking and very painful. So I am never surprised with tears and anger. 

I suppose this could be depressing but my experience has been quite the opposite: A massive re-affirmation of life. 

Harrison 

Winter Address

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301-365-2093

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From: OSList [mailto:oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org] On Behalf Of Rosa Zubizarreta via OSList
Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2015 10:13 AM
To: Daniel Mezick; World wide Open Space Technology email list
Subject: Re: [OSList] Zappos Being Zapped

Daniel, I hear you mention repeatedly, that mandating stuff doesn't work.

I fully agree with you. 

"Mandating stuff is a recipe for disaster."

I agree. 

What's happening at Zappo's is nuts.

I agree.

I also agree with Harrison about the power and prevalence of the informal organization, everywhere.

And, about the power of Open Space Technology to offer a "speeded up, concentrated experience of self-organization in action."

what I was curious about (and I realize I didn't express it so clearly...) was about what happens after OST events...

I'm curious to know, whether people in the organizations you know, generally remain content with having the hierarchical

"patterns and flows of energy" remain in place (maybe as a sort of decoy??) while the informal organization continues in a more energized manner...

or, if you have seen sometimes, a self-organizing move to create a "pattern or flow of energy" that "flash-framed", looks different than a triangle. 

(again.. NOT like what happened at Zappos. NOT "mandated from above".)

I realize I have been making a (possibly unfounded) assumption that this is not happening very much. 

And, it may be that I am just uninformed...

Another way of wording it... 
I'm curious to learn about instances where the already-happening-everywhere-self-organization,

after being "speeded up and concentrated" via OST, 

leads to new structures (i.e. "freeze-framed patterns and flows of energy")

that look different than the older ones.

Feels like a valid question to me,

yet not sure if this is the place to ask it...

and, I am still sad that the tragically flawed circus at Zappos is giving participatory management a bad name. 

I do wish they had listened to you, Daniel. 

And/ or, to anyone else who might have helped them understand, 

that it's crazy-making and doomed to "mandate participation".

with all best wishes,

Rosa 

Rosa Zubizarreta

 <http://www.DiaPraxis.com> www.DiaPraxis.com

Author of  <http://www.conflict2creativity.com> From Conflict to Creative Collaboration

recent Dynamic Facilitation deep dives:  
May 26-28 near Bonn, Germany <http://tinyurl.com/DFGermany2015> ;  June 12-16 in Durham, NC <http://www.solutiongeneratorsnetwork.org/1.0/dynamic-facilitation/>  <http://www.solutiongeneratorsnetwork.org/1.0/dynamic-facilitation/>   

On Sat, Jul 18, 2015 at 9:13 AM, Daniel Mezick via OSList <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:

I join Harrison is what he is saying. 

"...if we want a speeded up, concentrated experience of self organization in action, we know what to do."

One time on the phone talking about this, Harrison (paraphasing,)  you said: 

"..the real operating system is self-organization. Everything is is [an app.]"

I like that quote.

Quoting the NYT article: some interesting items in it....

"The end result was what he refers to as an “operating system” for organizations."

...stop right there: 
the holacracy people are really pushing this metaphor. "holacracy as operating system." Maybe not? Or maybe (scary idea) organizations are not machines at all. Maybe they are living systems? Which are not quite so easy to describe, manipulate, "program" ...and control?

"... Everyone must use the Holacracy software, called Glass Frog."

...wait:
Everyone MUST use? Really? How's that mandate actually working out?

"... Holacracy has been met with everything from cautious embrace to outright revulsion at Zappos, but little unequivocal enthusiasm."

...stop right there.
Maybe coercion is actually a bad idea?

"....I have five hours of meetings today.”"

...stop right there:
Are these meeting mandatory to attend? Can you opt-out of any of these "holacracy" meetings? Guessing no...

"... Mr. Hsieh sent a 4,700-word email to the entire company with an ultimatum: Embrace Holacracy or accept a buyout. "

...wait: an ultimatum? Does that actually work?
The spin is that all remaining employees are now "all-in." The reality is probably quite far from that:
https://medium.com/@DanielMezick/zappos-holacracy-and-real-options-don-t-commit-early-unless-you-know-why-ba8a7741b1b

"... For all of the talk of self-management and consensus building, the decision to go down this path was Mr. Hsieh’s alone."

Wait:
Is this a command, from authority, to self-organize? If so, how does that actually work?

"...Mr. Hsieh he emphasized that learning Holacracy was like learning a sport — it would take years to get good at it."

stop.right.there:
Could this be code for "it could take years to replace everyone."  ???? 

If so, is this the new normal? Replace everyone? Does that actually count as a successful change/innovation program? 

https://medium.com/@DanielMezick/adopting-holacracy-at-zappos-6664d70c0b5d

Self-organization: Do coercive mandates actually work?

If not: Is this what actually might scale? Is this what actually might work?

Daniel 

On 7/18/15 8:05 AM, Harrison via OSList wrote:

Rosa said... “I do think it would be kinda fun for all of that self-organizing that is already happening anyway, to come up with some alternative structures to the regular old pyramids we see all over the place...a bit of color in the landscape, as it were...”   

Rosa --There is a big secret. “All that self-organizing” is coming up with new structures every moment. “Structure” is actually an inaccurate way of talking about what is happening... more like patterns or flow of energy. “Flash framed” it does look like a structure, but that is really an illusion. An artifact of our perception. But it sort of works. 

Anyhow, it seems to me that there is some 13.7 billion years worth of examples of just precisely what you are talking about. It is only very recently that we (Homo sapiens) tried doing our own thing. Lots of wonderful names (Process re-engineering, etc) but precious little positive impact that I can see. Yes I know sometimes it seems that these marvelous inventions of ours seem to work...and of course lots of people make lots of money maintaining the illusion. But in moments of honesty, usually over a drink, everybody who has been around, even for a little bit, is totally aware that nothing ever happened according to the plan, design, etc... When pushed for source, the usual answer (given very quietly) is “The Informal System,” which by definition nobody organized. And that drives Management to despair. In fact they try to kill “the informal system” at every opportunity. 

Amazing, folks are busily containing, controlling, and destroying the one thing that enables organizations to function. Is that nuts? Seems to me that before we design anything new, it would be well to sit quietly and fully appreciate what is already there, and doing quite well. Thank you. And of course if we want a speeded up, concentrated experience of self organization in action, we know what to do. Works every time as long as we don’t try to organize it. Wonderful!

Harrison

Winter Address

7808 River Falls Drive

Potomac, MD 20854

301-365-2093

Summer Address

189 Beaucaire Ave.

Camden, ME 04843

207-763-3261

Websites

www.openspaceworld.com <http://%20www.openspaceworld.com> 

www.ho-image.com

OSLIST To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of OSLIST Go to:http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org

From: OSList [mailto:oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org] On Behalf Of Rosa Zubizarreta via OSList

Sent: Friday, July 17, 2015 10:05 PM
To: Daniel Mezick; World wide Open Space Technology email list
Subject: Re: [OSList] Zappos Being Zapped

Yes, Daniel, as you wrote, "mandating a process change is a recipe for disaster."

REGARDLESS of what the process is... 
but ESPECIALLY if it's one that's supposed to "help people feel more empowered". 

for me, it's sad to see what's happening at Zappo's.

especially because i happen to think that interlocking circles is a fairly decent structure,

as far as structures go...

I'm not so much of a fan of the decision-making aspect of holocracy/sociocracy...

but the structural part feels fairly sound to me.

i know the orthodoxy around here is that "it's all self-organizing anyway"...

at the same time, I do think it would be kinda fun for all of that self-organizing that is already happening anyway,

to come up with some alternative structures to the regular old pyramids we see all over the place...

a bit of color in the landscape, as it were... 

i guess we're just not that evolved yet! :-) 

with all best wishes,

Rosa

Rosa Zubizarreta

 <http://www.DiaPraxis.com> www.DiaPraxis.com

Author of  <http://www.conflict2creativity.com> From Conflict to Creative Collaboration

recent Dynamic Facilitation deep dives:  
May 26-28 near Bonn, Germany <http://tinyurl.com/DFGermany2015> ;  June 12-16 in Durham, NC <http://www.solutiongeneratorsnetwork.org/1.0/dynamic-facilitation/>  <http://www.solutiongeneratorsnetwork.org/1.0/dynamic-facilitation/>   

On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 7:08 PM, Daniel Mezick via OSList <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:

Sheesh. Yes, and...

..I did some consulting for Zappos in prior years. As part of that, I know Tony and have taken some meals with him, some at his home. 

In early 2014, I had lunch with Tony and some of his staff. A very dear friend arranged the meeting.

The purpose was to introduce him to Open Space and discuss how it might be a good tool for helping encourage self-organization at the Downtown project (DTP) and Zappos proper. During that meal, I left him with a printed copy of the BRIEF GUIDE, and some pictures of what OST in action looks like. Not too much stuff, just enough to hopefully get him interested. A kind of invitation as it were.

At the time, he described some issues with "holacracy" at the DTP and Zappos itself. I explained how OST might actually be perfect given the situation an timing. I left the meeting upbeat and thinking he might go all the way. 

It didn't take. 

Later in March 2014, I wrote this:
http://newtechusa.net/agile/the-mandate-of-holacracy-at-zappos/

The self-organizing universe creates stories you just cannot make up. 

Example: 
https://pando.com/2015/07/08/staff-tony-hsiehs-downtown-project-voted-abandon-holacracy-nine-months-ago/fcbd6b7081af428b88d24fddd3fbadfbee6910ea/

Regards,
Daniel 

On 7/17/15 5:26 PM, Harrison via OSList wrote:

>From the New York Times:  <http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=InCMR7g4BCKC2wiZPkcVUlDMaFOsPrCW&user_id=d0877bb1019932ce3160783833511913&email_type=eta&task_id=1437166724712134&regi_id=0> http://nyti.ms/1Jn1nwh  Do Love this story. Zappo is going to install holarchical, self organizing management systems.  How many oxymoron’s can you get in one sentence? And according to the Times, the big problem is that nobody can understand what is going on. Marvelous! – As bright as Homo sapiens may be, we really don’t have clue when it comes to the complex, interconnected world on which we are momentarily passengers. But no worries. It really doesn’t depend on “our understanding.” A fact that “we” all experience each and every time we have the privilege of “Opening Space.” We don’t understand it. We don’t “do it.”  Seems to happen pretty much by itself. Just marvelous... Holarchical, self organizing, management system! Happens every time. All by itself.

Harrison

Winter Address

7808 River Falls Drive

Potomac, MD 20854

301-365-2093

Summer Address

189 Beaucaire Ave.

Camden, ME 04843

207-763-3261

Websites

www.openspaceworld.com <http://%20www.openspaceworld.com> 

www.ho-image.com

OSLIST To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of OSLIST Go to:http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org

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Daniel Mezick, President

New Technology Solutions Inc.

(203) 915 7248 <tel:%28203%29%20915%207248>  (cell)

Bio <http://newtechusa.net/dan-mezick/> . Blog <http://newtechusa.net/blog/> . Twitter <http://twitter.com/#%21/danmezick/> . 

Examine my new book:  The Culture Game  <http://newtechusa.net/about/the-culture-game-book/> : Tools for the Agile Manager.

Explore Agile Team Training <http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-training/>  and Coaching. <http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-coaching/> 

Explore the Agile Boston  <http://newtechusa.net/user-groups/ma/> Community. 

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