Youth Leaders
Denise Tennen
denisetennen at comcast.net
Sun Oct 10 08:06:16 PDT 2010
Seems right on to me...
Denise
On Oct 9, 2010, at 2:28 PM, stell at clara.co.uk wrote:
> I'm loving the passion of this discussion and the thinking it
> brings up, and am moved to suggest that perhaps the most resonant
> question is around elders and eldership, and that the concern for
> youth - having worked many times with the National Youth Theatre of
> Great Britain, is more about ensuring tbd youth and children have
> appropriate elders - of whatever age - to ensure their care and
> good guidance, than whether they should participate - in anything -
> at all?
> That is, if our focus, instead of the current preoccupation on
> youth at all costs, was on ensuring appropriate eldership, wouldn't
> the concern about children and youth involvement in decision making
> be obviated?
> Hmm, possibly long-winded way of sayingtg don't think it's possible
> to speak about children without also speaking about elders.
> Stella x
>
> Sent from my HTC
>
> ----- Reply message -----
> From: "Tree Fitzpatrick" <therese.fitzpatrick at gmail.com>
> Date: Sat, Oct 9, 2010 19:53
> Subject: Youth Leaders
> To: <OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU>
>
> You are certainly entitled to your beliefs, everyone who has
> commented.
>
> Eleven year olds who are organizing anti-war demonstrations have
> not been given a childhood that might have allowed that child to
> continue his/her inner development to become even better able to
> achieve a fully realized adult person. There are biological reasons
> why the human being develops so much more slowly than, say, a
> horse. It is not just about physical . . there are inner aspects to
> being human that cannot be rushed. A central, tragic, mistake is
> the kind of thinking many are reflecting here, talk about all
> children developing at different stages . .
>
> why not let all humans drink alcohol from age fifteen?
>
> why do we have the voting age at 18 and why was it at 21 for so long?
>
> because the human being is not a full adult until age 21 and, even,
> older. .. it's not just about emotional and physical maturity. We
> are spiritual beings.
>
> It is our spiritual beings that are most stunted when we allow
> children to enter adult decision making and adult simulation at
> younger and younger ages.
>
> It is child abuse, in my opinion, to have events like the TED
> event. . . I know nobody at that event would agree with me. IMO,
> and I do get to have it, inviting children to sit on the boards of
> things like TED and the Jane Goodall institute or, my goodness,
> citizen/community policy bords, amounts to cultural and child
> abuse. Do we want fully evolved human beings to carry the human
> race into the future? or do we want working clones for corporations?
>
> I want fully evolved human beings and to get those, we need to keep
> children asleep in childhood.That means no television, no internet.
> It means reading. It means adding in their heads, not calculators.
> And it means not pressuring children to raise money for charity and
> antiwar demonstrations.
>
> Everyone can believe whatever they want. Let's see how the world
> does with children who spend their childhoods in front of
> television and now, online.
>
> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 10:08 AM, Pat Black
> <patoitextiles at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello Tree
> I have never agreed and disagreed more strongly with the same
> thought before. It took me some time to sit with your ideas as I
> unpacked my own reaction to your statements. I do not believe I
> misunderstand your beliefs about how you think childhoods should be
> protected and sheltered and I don't disagree with you in theory.
> They should be protected and sheltered.. There is no going back to
> stolen childhoods and childhood can be stolen. I do think
> childhoods can be stolen under the guise of protection and shelter.
> I do think there are developmental stages and that it's
> important for us to go through all those stages as we grow because
> we will use those stages as scaffolding as we become ourselves.
> Having said that I also believe that we all come to be with a
> different set of tools and brilliant abilities. Those unique
> qualities of self allow us to move through different developmental
> stages with different abilities and different times.. Here is
> where I take exception with what you are proposing and Waldorf for
> that matter. Each brings our own time to the equation. Some are
> ready to take on experiences interacting with adults and their
> world in very competent ways at very young ages. In fact, they
> need to have those experiences to find the self they came to be. I
> know for myself I was already organizing anti-war events by the
> time I was 11. No one expected, pushed or even encouraged me to
> this. I felt compelled by what I saw in the world and a deep need
> to change it. I am grateful that as difficult as it was for my
> parents to allow me to do these things because they kept me on the
> path to myself. My daughter was crying about flowers picked that
> didn't want to be picked by the time she was 2, raising money for
> pre-schools in Central America by the time she was 7 and
> comfortably reading essays she wrote to political demonstration
> with crowds of 50,000 people by the time she was 11. My son on the
> other hand is 22 and still not ready to navigate the world as an
> adult. He needs more time. The issue for me is not whether I
> think a young person should participate in certain venues normally
> occupied by adults. The issue is where the children are driven to
> go. What do the children think? Are they there because their own
> heart has passion and commitment or are they there because someone
> else thinks that is where they should be? Childhood should be
> protected and sheltered. I agree with that. I also think it needs
> to be driven by the child's passion and commitment not the adults
> sense of what is appropriate for a child. I am thinking about the
> recent hoopla about the 16 year old girl who wanted to sail around
> the world and all the talk about child abuse. There was a time
> when she was out of radio contact and all the world was a twitter
> about what happened to her because the loss of contact came after a
> bad storm in the Pacific where she was. After some days they found
> the boat and team rescued her. Her mast broke in the storm and
> with that her satellite communications were down. The questioners
> went on and on to her about her safety and whether she was alright
> and whether she should be out in a boat sailing by herself and her
> reply was "It was just a storm". This child can only become
> herself through the sea and if you deny her the sea you deny her
> herself.
> I am just saying it is for the child to chose the direction and the
> speed and the adults to do what they can to facility the possibility.
> Pat Black
>
> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 8:11 AM, Tree Fitzpatrick
> <therese.fitzpatrick at gmail.com> wrote:
> Michael, and other comments. .. I don't think anyone commenting
> actually understood what I tried to say so I conclude that I failed
> to communicate.
>
> Young humans are not yet fully evolved humans. What all young
> people need, including the most precocious of them, including ones
> that get asked to sit on the board of the Jane Goodall Institute,
> is to be children. It is only by being children than humans can
> become fully realized adults.
>
> The world needs fully realized adults to achieve our shared,
> highest destiny. When we push children out of childhood and into
> the adult realm, those people rarely, if ever, get space later in
> life to go back and fill in the gaps of what was missing.
>
> Michael, yes, indeed, children can bring a lovely element to any
> open space. . . but that does not mean that it is right. Children
> should not be asked to participate in adult matters. Ever.
>
> The damage contemporary society does to childhood is a very
> serious, long-term consequence to humanity. If we do not keep
> children asleep in childhood so they might do the inner work of
> their inner beings, we will have a human future full of unrealized
> 'grown ups'. It is casual, nonsensical folly to bring children --
> unformed adults -- into adult discussions. It is wrong on a
> gagillion levels.
>
> We are all so caught up in rushing towards the future. One thing we
> humans cannot 'rush' is the slow development and incubation of
> fully realized human beings: that development takes place in
> childhood. It is irrationally folly to bring children into adult
> decisions.
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 3:06 AM, Michael M Pannwitz
> <mmpanne at boscop.org> wrote:
> Dear Tree,
> from where I sit (public) decision making as presently practiced,
> for instance in Germany, is ineffective, creates larger problems,
> is lobby-infested, dogmatic, expensive, not even a good show... who
> would want to be part of that?
> What I have experienced often in "formal" open space events and in
> the "normal" open space of everyday life (like the 1,5 year old
> daughter of a neighbor visiting and taking over our household, very
> effectively involving us in her life and experiments, curious,
> decisions?-easy for her....pure joy)is that kids of all ages thrive
> in it.
> But then, thats not decision making in the sense of sitting on a
> "board" of whatsoever.
> Day-care children, grade school kids, highschool kids, teenagers...
> are the greatest gift to an open space event, so I encourage their
> taking part and it seems to always have been productive, fun,
> healthy...
>
> Have a great day
> Greetings from Berlin
> mmp
>
> Tree Fitzpatrick schrieb:
> There are many things off kilter in human culture. One thing that I
> think is
> off kilter is that adult humans now routinely encourage non-adult
> humans to
> participate in things like 'public decision making'. Where did we
> get the
> assumption that a young person has the capacity of a fully evolved
> adult
> human to make informed decisions that might have long term
> consequences on
> the child, other children, the community, the culture, etc?
> Children are not
> yet adult.
>
> We encourage children to 'awaken' to adulthood far too early.
>
> I am appalled that many now take it for granted that children (a
> non-adult
> is still a child) should sit on something like the Board of
> Directors of
> something like the Jane Goddall Institute (whatever that is, I imagine
> Ashley meant Jane Goddall).
>
> This is a major flaw, I think, in evolving culture and it has
> endlessly
> complex repercussions.
>
> Children's job is to be children, to developo their own personhood
> fully so
> that they will one day take a place in adult community. Children
> awaken to
> adult considerations much too early. TElevision has been a huge
> culprit in
> this regard and now, of course, the internet.
>
> A child's main work is being a child. It's just not right to
> cavalierly get
> youth input into decisioins that children cannot, just cannot,
> really know.
> A twelve year old, a sixteen year old, is not mature enough to make
> complex
> public decisions and it is wrong to ask them to: asking children to
> participate in grown up life as peers with the adults dishonors
> children
>
> I get my main attitudes about children from having sent my child to a
> Waldorf School and having been a student of Rudolf STeiner for over
> twenty
> years. Much of what is wrong with human culture can be traced to the
> practice of stunting youthful inner development under the guise of
> awakening
> children too early to adult concerns. This is why we now have an
> education
> system in USA that is focussed on test scores instead of the inner
> development of children. There is a story in today's NYTImes about how
> publishers are publishing less picture books and how parents
> pressure four
> years olds to listen to long stories and skip picture books so they
> will
> have better test scores later. . . this dynamic is connected to
> including
> youth in public decisinmaking.
>
> I know this is a very popular trend and I know Ashely Cooper is deeply
> invested in the world and I know she is a good caring person intent on
> making positive contributions in the world.
>
> I get to have my opinion, yes? I am worried about the millions of
> humans
> who are children today who are not cloud-gazing and spending their
> summers
> hunting rocks and birds' nests and who are told, when they are
> twelve, that
> they can contribute to public decisions. Grown up humans have a
> duty to
> children: to let them be children. Otherwise what we are creating
> is an
> army of humans who are not fully developed humans who will make
> good wage
> slaves for the elite billionaires running the tea part movement.
> Thinking
> caring loving people should not participate in pushing children
> into the
> adult arena while children.
>
> On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 6:51 PM, ashley cooper
> <mail.easilyamazed at gmail.com>wrote:
>
> Hello Open Space friends,
>
> I have fallen off of the OSlist for awhile, but I wanted to share
> with you
> a talk from a recent TEDx event that I hosted,
> TEDxNextGenerationAsheville<http://
> www.tedxnextgenerationasheville.com/>.
>
> This event was all about spotlighting the ideas of young people and
> giving
> them a public stage from which to share and be heard. It was also an
> invitation for there to be more collaboration between youth and
> adults.
> Chase Pickering spoke about the role of youth in leadership and how
> young
> people can contribute to public decision-making and serve on Board of
> Directors (which he did with the Jane Goddall Institute). If you
> are in a
> position to invite a youth to serve on your board of directors or
> advisory
> board or encourage the clients you work with, please consider Chase's
> advice!
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27IJpZVP1qs
>
> You can also watch Birke Baehr's talk about the food we eat. He is
> an 11
> year old who is passionate about food and whose talk has gone viral
> and been
> viewed over 200,000 times in less than 2 weeks.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7Id9caYw-Y
>
> Sending fondest regards from Asheville, NC, USA,
> Ashley
>
> P.s. If you would like to respond to me personally, please send it to
> easilyamazed at gmail.com . I have not been checking this account
> regularly.
> Thank you.
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>
> --
> Michael M Pannwitz, boscop eg
> Draisweg 1, 12209 Berlin, Germany
> ++49-30-772 8000
> mmpanne at boscop.org
> www.boscop.org
>
>
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> --
> Love rays,
> Tree Fitzpatrick (check out my new address)
>
>
> . . . the great and incalculable grace of love, which says, with
> Augustine, "I want you to be," without being able to give any
> particular reason for such supreme and unsurpassable affirmation.
> -- Hannah Arendt
>
> 2175 Kittredge St Apt 615
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>
> --
> Love rays,
> Tree Fitzpatrick (check out my new address)
>
>
> . . . the great and incalculable grace of love, which says, with
> Augustine, "I want you to be," without being able to give any
> particular reason for such supreme and unsurpassable affirmation.
> -- Hannah Arendt
>
> 2175 Kittredge St Apt 615
> Berkeley, CA 94704
> 510-665-4825
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