a word from a ferind

Sat May 18 10:19:17 PDT 2002

Thank you, Tova.  You are touching my heart in a way that, perhaps, only you could do - from your vantage point.

At the risk of being overly simplistic, I am seeing that the Israelites are saying "this place is holy to our God and it belongs to us" and the Palestinians are saying "this place is holy to our God and it belongs to us".  Am I seeing this correctly - in a very simple way?

I also attempted to subscribe to the "alternative" news outlined below and it was kicked back as not being a viable name for yahoo.  Any information on that?

Blessings,
Toni
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Averbuch 
  To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU 
  Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 9:11 AM
  Subject: Re: a word from a ferind

  dear friends,
  I had sent this fallowing mail, to what I thought to be Dan Chay's address, on the 13 of May. It came back to me today. Since I clearly remember hesitation on my part whether this contents belong to the list or not I collect ,now, from the mails Koos, and Joelle and Julie (and the fact that it made it all the way back...) that this may be the time and place:

  Dear Dan,

      thank you very much for your response and recognition it is well taken
  and appreciated.I have some responses I would like to share with you as a
  way of deepening the conversation:

  You write:
              <And I still wonder also if the Israeli military (members of it)
  perpetuated massacres themselves. I am currently fairly sure they
  perpetuated horror. It concerns me less whether any perpetuators of
  horror Palestinian or Israeli were by some justification "right" to do
  so or not, compared to whether perpetuating horrors on others will help
  anyone achieve their higher aims.>

  you see, I have no interest in who is "right" either.
   I assume each and every person has the right to live their life according
  to their story so the only thing that does interest me is the peace making
  story.

  you wrote:
      <It seems to me your neighbors and you and the different Palestinians
  have closely-felt experiences to help shape your understandings in a way
  that I do not.  I imagine for some that has been a mixed benefit.  It
  looks from here to me like living so close to the edge of survival has
  resulted in many of both Israeli and Palestinian people not being able
  acknowledge and understand other peoples' perspectives very well.
  For some time I have sought also to understand the horrors felt by
  Palestinians. There is, for example, a mailing list by Ali Abunimah that
  provides alternative (to US mainstream news) selections of news and
  analysis about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict that can be joined by
  sending a blank email to aliabunimah-subscribe at yahoogroups.com..>

      It may surprise you but  I think this closeness sometimes makes you num
  and sometimes more of a human because you see the suffering of the
  Palestinians every day as well, and you hear directly and you read - It is
  more real and more personal. If you happen to be a person that can not hate
  ,you ake and you grievea lot until you learn ,at times, to transform it to
  hope and belief and what this list calls "love".
      I do not see our war in the Middle east as a war between Jews and Arab
  or a war between Israelis and Palestinians. I see it,  for many years now,
  more as a war between: hope and love fighters and despaired/consumed by hate
  fighters; life fighters and death fighters on both sides.
      It is not a boarders type of war it is the core we are fighting for 
  because The Israeli-Jewish dream land of the heart and prayers will always
  be "the land of Israel" ( they will be-longing there), and the Palestinian
  dream land is the land of plantain ( they fell the be-long there). since
  this is the exsect piece of land there is only a practical question: can we
  respect and trust one another enough to live in two neighboring countries and
  give up our dreams/ This is a lot of grief to go threw even for those who
  what and an almost impossible leap of trust for all concerned.

      <It seems to me it is these kinds of perspective WITH what we learn from
  various Israeli and other perspectives that will help us understand more
  profoundly each others' pain  -- by way of beginning to better
  understand the complexity of the whole and to shift from vicious to
  virtuous cycles of interaction>
  I definitely agree. but I didn't think this is for the list type of material,
  I am afraid to shut space for others what do you think?

  with love and respect
  Tova Averbuch
  averbuch at post.tau.ac.il

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Heidi and Dan Chay <chay at alaska.com>
  To: <OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU>
  Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 6:45 PM
  Subject: Re: Word from a friend

  > Hi Tova,
  >
  > In response to Artur, you wrote:
  >
  > >>
  > As a way of bringing this letter to a close I would like to share two
  > thing from last few days in my personal, private life :
  > 1/ Yesterday, two streets away from were I live there was a suicide
  > bombing in a snooker club. 15 civilians, unarmed, unprotected, half of
  > them 55 years old and above, were murdered. 50 wounded,12 of them
  > sevirly. It could have been me, or you. Is that a "massacre or not"?
  >
  > 2/ Sometimes I envy people who live in situations in which there is
  > right and wrong in a clear cut way. I don't believe I do. My 14 year old
  > daughter, Shira, had spoken to me few days ago with deep reflection in
  > her voice ( after arguing with kids her age who hold extreme opinions)
  > :"you know, Imma (Mommy' in Hebrew), I do not understand how people can
  > be extreemly leftist or exrteemly rightist in this situation" when I
  > questioned 'why' she answered: " because the only sane position in this
  > mass, were every one is right and does wrong, in not to be sure that you
  > know, and to look for what is right". that made my heart move.
  > <<
  >
  > To me, your example of the suicide bombing is a massacre. The pain and
  > horror of that reaches all the way here to me in Alaska.
  >
  > Your daughter's words also strike me with feeling, wonder, and sense of
  > wisdom.
  >
  > And I still wonder also if the Israeli military (members of it)
  > perpetuated massacres themselves. I am currently fairly sure they
  > perpetuated horror. It concerns me less whether any perpetuators of
  > horror Palestinian or Israeli were by some justification "right" to do
  > so or not, compared to whether perpetuating horrors on others will help
  > anyone achieve their higher aims.
  >
  > It seems to me your neighbors and you and the different Palestinians
  > have closely-felt experiences to help shape your understandings in a way
  > that I do not.  I imagine for some that has been a mixed benefit.  It
  > looks from here to me like living so close to the edge of survival has
  > resulted in many of both Israeli and Palestinian people not being able
  > acknowledge and understand other peoples' perspectives very well.
  >
  > I find our US mainstream press gives a fairly homogenous picture of
  > middle east conflict -- and Bush fairly well reflects that picture, I
  > think, unfortunately.  It is, among other things, a mainstream picture
  > that draws vividly and often the horrors felt by Israelis and weakly and
  > infrequently the horrors felt by Palestinians.
  >
  > For some time I have sought also to understand the horrors felt by
  > Palestinians. There is, for example, a mailing list by Ali Abunimah that
  > provides alternative (to US mainstream news) selections of news and
  > analysis about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict that can be joined by
  > sending a blank email to aliabunimah-subscribe at yahoogroups.com.
  >
  > It seems to me it is these kinds of perspective WITH what we learn from
  > various Israeli and other perspectives that will help us understand more
  > profoundly each others' pain  -- by way of beginning to better
  > understand the complexity of the whole and to shift from vicious to
  > virtuous cycles of interaction.  I see you as a heroine in your efforts
  > to cultivate such openness.
  >
  > Love and best wishes,
  >
  > Dan Chay
  >
  > *
  > *
  > ==========================================================
  > OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
  > ------------------------------
  > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options,
  > view the archives of oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu,
  > Visit:
  >
  > http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.openspacetech.org/pipermail/oslist-openspacetech.org/attachments/20020518/037b8fbc/attachment-0017.htm>