[OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom - Reply to Michael Hermann - final post to answer your questions - time for my two feet to MOVE on...
Mark Carmel
markacarmel at gmail.com
Mon Jan 24 11:36:56 PST 2022
Thank you so very kindly Sirr Paul! Great points!
MC
On Mon, Jan 24, 2022, 12:06 PM paul levy <paul at cats3000.net> wrote:
> "He raised himself up by his own bootstraps".
>
> Dear Mark,
>
> The very fact your reply is here to be read;
>
> The very fact that people wrote whatever they wrote (including threats to
> remove anyone from the list);
>
> The very fact that others chose silence or indifference, all prove how
> beautifully this space is perpetually open.
>
> You cannot cherry pick a banana.
>
> Warm wishes from the Big Boosters' Club.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, 24 Jan 2022, 18:51 Mark Carmel via OSList, <
> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>
>> Michael thank you for your response and for asking a few questions. I am
>> going to answer your questions and then hopefully exit this conversation
>> gracefully and use the law of two feet to move somewhere else where I may
>> make a difference. I would 1st like to thank you for your leadership and
>> loyalty to the open space list. I offer my sincere regrets to anyone and
>> everyone that I offended.
>>
>> Michael you asked the following questions:
>>
>> What was I hoping to learn?
>> What did I think I was contributing?
>> What does that subject matter have to do with why we are here?
>> And finally can I bring the conversation back around to open space
>> technology?
>>
>> To answer your questions I was not actually hoping to learn anything
>> from that post and exchanges that followed... But I ended up learning a
>> lot which I will come back to in a moment.
>>
>> I also had no intention or thought about contributing anything other
>> than providing food for thought or a shot for a thought.
>>
>> Reggarding what the subject matter has to do with the reason why we are
>> here, It made me realize a couple of things. 1st of all on its face my
>> original post probably had very little if nothing to do with the reason why
>> we are here. However upon upon experiencing the conversation that took
>> place I believe it has everything to do with why we are here.
>>
>> And yes I will bring the conversation back around to open space
>> technology now ...
>>
>> The conversation proves one thing. Because of the highly devisive nature
>> of all of our societies right now, people should not be naive to believe
>> that the world is an open place encouraging free thought and participation
>> of emerging ideas or opposing viewpoints. Even our circles of friends are
>> not open to opposing viewpoints. Obviously based on what happened in this
>> case, when people share a thought, even if not yours, they will be subject
>> to Ridicule, retaliation and rejection, as evidenced by by the
>> conversation.. This represents a highly interesting and useful phenomenon.
>> People want to only hear what they want to hear especially when it comes to
>> the devisive nature of issues of our day which the news media magnifies
>> thereby cementing beliefs. So bringing the conversation back around to open
>> space, as I said in one of my posts, the number 1 goal, in the invitation,
>> should be to exercise and practice leadership loyalty as OST Facilitators.
>> What do the leaders want to hear? What issues And opportunities are the
>> real leaders truly open to? Leadership loyalty says never go out of
>> bounds is with your thoughts opinion or agenda. For if you or your
>> participants fail to do so, they will be ridiculed in retaliation, and
>> rejected. The master of Democracy, Alexis Tocqueville Understood this very
>> well in his writings over 100 years ago. There is a very fine line that
>> must be walked upon. A delicate balance that that will destroy people's
>> lives if they speak up too soon and are too honest regarding their heart
>> felt beliefs. The beliefs I shared - which again were not even my beliefs
>> or thoughts - caused people to be so outraged they wanted to silence me and
>> kick me out of this club. That is normal now. That is the lesson to be
>> learned. That is the lesson that our so called leaders demonstrate everyday
>> as they run their well orchestrated smear campaigns against people who do
>> not share their same ideas and power trips. So who knows what the truth
>> is. It turns out the truth doesn't matter much anymore, does it? The only
>> thing that matters is being told what we want to hear (or telling leaders
>> what they want to hear) that satisfies the self fulfilling prophecy of
>> beliefs. Open space technology has the power to uncover hidden agendas. In
>> this way people must be very careful because something bigger is at stake
>> than just the best meeting method ever invented. their own future and the
>> future of their loved ones is at stake.
>>
>> Mr. Tocqueville said it best, regarding contrary free speech. This is
>> a wise lesson for all OST Facilitators to understand before sending open,
>> honest, and well intentioned participants into the Tiger's Den to speak
>> their truth.
>>
>> Your fellow-creatures will shun you like an impure being, and those who
>> are most persuaded of your innocence will abandon you too, lest they
>> should be shunned in their own turn. - Alexis Tocqueville
>>
>> Wishing Peace to all YOU Peacemakers and much Love to our beloved
>> Harrison H. Owen and your Vision Big Guy to build back better this World we
>> find ourselves in.
>>
>> Now, how about that weather?
>>
>> MC
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 23, 2022, 4:30 AM <oslist-request at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> wrote:
>>
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>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>> 1. Who is BS-ing Whom? Reply to Lucas Cioffi (Mark Carmel)
>>> 2. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? Reply to Lucas Cioffi (Michael Herman)
>>> 3. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? Reply to Lucas Cioffi (Amanda Bucklow)
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 20:27:49 -0700
>>> From: Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com>
>>> To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
>>> <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>>> Subject: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom? Reply to Lucas Cioffi
>>> Message-ID:
>>> <CAFDvDFg3YKiN-=cwpsXwNLqmUaRTAp9Amv0m=
>>> 6EoCXxaOrkq6A at mail.gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>
>>> Lucas, do you see yourself in this quote? Are you being a hater? Too?
>>> ... The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will hate
>>> those
>>> who speak it...--George Orwell ...
>>>
>>> To answer your question, can I commit to no name calling? You accused
>>> me
>>> of: derogatory name calling. I guess it depends on what the definition
>>> of
>>> derogatory is. Right? I ask you, If something is TRUE is it derogatory? I
>>> simply made a post - super respectfully - sharing an opposing viewpoint
>>> from someone else and ended up being hated on, (using the term of modern
>>> slang... https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hater ) and was
>>> told to hush up and get lost, called a bully, called a lot of names...
>>> like
>>> now, being called derogatory, by you Lucas. So if someone is hating on
>>> me
>>> - for sharing a thought, from others - (on this list - that is what? the
>>> most open forum in the world?) and I call them a hater, who is being
>>> derogatory, me or them? So to answer your question in this context: Hell
>>> NO!
>>>
>>> Lucas, are you the Leader of this list? Now that I said no what are you
>>> going to do, kick me out of the club? This is why I said honestly I will
>>> think twice about posting opposing views here again, to keep haters (like
>>> you) off my back.
>>>
>>> Cheers! And nice work on your software. Perhaps a new tool could be
>>> incorporated called the law of two eyes: if you don't like what you see,
>>> look the other way - rather than react in a derogatory way - Stay Away
>>> from
>>> the Tocqueville Trap today...
>>>
>>> Seriously,
>>> All the Best!
>>>
>>> MC
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jan 22, 2022, 2:58 PM <oslist-request at lists.openspacetech.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Send OSList mailing list submissions to
>>> > oslist at lists.openspacetech.org
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>>> >
>>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>> > than "Re: Contents of OSList digest..."
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Today's Topics:
>>> >
>>> > 1. Who is BS-ing Whom? (Mark Carmel)
>>> > 2. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (paul levy)
>>> > 3. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (Marc C. Trudeau)
>>> > 4. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (koos at auryn.nl)
>>> > 5. Who is BS-ing Whom? Reply to Amanda Bucklow and Michael
>>> > Pannwitz (Mark Carmel)
>>> > 6. Mark, can you commit to not calling anyone a disparaging name
>>> > again? (Lucas Cioffi)
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >
>>> > Message: 1
>>> > Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 15:42:40 -0700
>>> > From: Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com>
>>> > To: Rosa Zubizarreta <rosa at diapraxis.com>
>>> > Cc: World wide Open Space Technology email list
>>> > <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>, Koos de Heer <koos at auryn.nl>
>>> > Subject: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
>>> > Message-ID:
>>> > <CAFDvDFgynt2bD725CLcN1B=6NXnZdQA=Fj5bGk=
>>> > jCJU4+j0NgA at mail.gmail.com>
>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>> >
>>> > Rosa Zubizarreta, thank YOU so very much for this truly awe inspiring,
>>> > interesting and intellectually important reference to needle points!
>>> >
>>> > I took special notice of the line:
>>> > ... an infected person may at first show only the mildest and
>>> nonspecific
>>> > symptoms, such as a cough or sniffle, before they become deathly ill...
>>> >
>>> > It is SO TRUE, that ALL colds start with a sniffle, cough, or start of
>>> a
>>> > sore throat. That is our body and mind's way of telling us it's time to
>>> > start the fight against the bug bringing on these basic symptoms. But
>>> oh
>>> > no, that's not what our medical geniuses tell us... it is all right
>>> there
>>> > in black and white for anyone who gets covid, you get the same piece of
>>> > paper from all of group thinkers from CDC, WHO, NIH, Etc on down to
>>> local
>>> > docs, who say: ...if you get covid DO NOTHING! Except run and hide
>>> from
>>> > your pets, family and friends... And you are also advised to spray
>>> chemical
>>> > cleaners (that you are then breathing in the whole time) on everything
>>> you
>>> > touch, each time you touch it, every day while in solitary confinement.
>>> > Then, say our health gurus, when you cant breath, and only then, you
>>> should
>>> > do something...go to the hospital, call an ambulance. Others who do
>>> nothing
>>> > and wait until they cant breathe literally call the undertaker as they
>>> > pull out a pistol and shoot themselves. Suicide skyrocketing now during
>>> > this disease. My solution is simple and better and it works... The
>>> moment
>>> > you feel a runny nose or sore throat, cough, etc., gargle with hot salt
>>> > water and rinse your nose with a saline rinse...bye bye bugs...!
>>> >
>>> > I also take note of another great point in your Needle Points
>>> reference,
>>> > Rosa, and thank you most gratefully for this one also... not because it
>>> > proves my point on leadership loyalty and retaliation for failure to
>>> do so,
>>> > but because it is a profound truth that all OST facilitators should
>>> > understand before sending participants into the new lion's den known as
>>> > open and honest input, giving people the liberty to express one's
>>> opinion.
>>> > Here is that great point:
>>> >
>>> > ...One person who understood how this works intuitively was Alexis de
>>> > Tocqueville. In democracies, as long as there is not yet a majority
>>> > opinion, a range of views can be expressed, and it appears there is a
>>> great
>>> > ?liberty of opinion,? to use his phrase. But once a majority opinion
>>> forms,
>>> > it acquires a sudden social power, and it brings with it pressure to
>>> end
>>> > dissent. A powerful new kind of censorship and coercion begins in
>>> everyday
>>> > life (at work, school, choir, church, hospitals, in all institutions)
>>> as
>>> > the majority turns on the minority, demanding it comply. Tocqueville,
>>> like
>>> > James Madison, was concerned about this ?the tyranny of the majority,?
>>> > which he saw as the Achilles? heel of democracy. It isn?t only because
>>> > divisiveness created a minority faction steeped in lingering
>>> resentment;
>>> > it?s also because minorities can sometimes be more right than
>>> majorities
>>> > (indeed, emerging ideas are, by definition, minority ideas to start
>>> with).
>>> > The majority overtaking the minority could mean stamping out thoughts
>>> and
>>> > actions that would otherwise generate progress and forward movement...
>>> >
>>> > ...It is a fascinating moment when this sort of crystallization
>>> happens in
>>> > a mass culture like America?s, because seemingly overnight even the
>>> > definition of legitimate speech (or thought or action) also changes.
>>> > Tocqueville observed that quite abruptly a person can no longer express
>>> > opinions or raise questions that only days before were acceptable, even
>>> > though no facts of the matter have changed. At an individual level,
>>> people
>>> > who were within the bounds can be surprised to find themselves
>>> ...tormented
>>> > by the slights and persecutions of daily obloquy... Once this occurs,
>>> he
>>> > wrote, ...your fellow-creatures will shun you like an impure being, and
>>> > those who are most persuaded of your innocence will abandon you too,
>>> lest
>>> > they should be shunned in their turn...
>>> >
>>> > In the midst of a pandemic, seeing the unvaccinated as ?impure? is no
>>> > surprise, because of course they could carry contagion. But as
>>> Tocqueville
>>> > pointed out, this *also* occurs when there is no contagion, and we
>>> begin to
>>> > experience those who are on the wrong side as ?impure??as in failing
>>> the
>>> > purity test?and react to them as though they are dangerous. That we do
>>> this
>>> > even when there is no pandemic suggests that there is, along with
>>> realistic
>>> > fear of infection, something else going on here?a sense that those with
>>> > whom we may disagree are impurities in the body politic, bad people who
>>> > need to be taught a lesson, even punished.
>>> > A final poignant point to me in your piece Rosa was this gem talking
>>> about
>>> > what we do! Facilitating THE participatory proceess of OST. Here in
>>> > context of public health.
>>> >
>>> > June 2021 Gallup
>>> > <
>>> >
>>> https://news.gallup.com/poll/350720/covid-vaccine-reluctant-likely-stay.aspx
>>> > >
>>> > poll
>>> > found that, among the vaccinated, 53% now worry most about those
>>> choosing
>>> > not to get vaccinated, ?surpassing concerns about lack of social
>>> distancing
>>> > in their area (27%), availability of local hospital resources and
>>> supplies
>>> > (11%), and availability of coronavirus tests in their area (5%).? True
>>> to
>>> > the BIS?s impulses, this fear is metastasizing into disgust, even
>>> hatred,
>>> > of those who?because they believe or act differently?are now perceived
>>> as
>>> > threats: On Aug. 26, in a front-page story in the *Toronto Star*, my
>>> local
>>> > newspaper, a resident was quoted as saying: ...I have no empathy left
>>> for
>>> > the willfully unvaccinated. Let them die...
>>> >
>>> > In the midst of such a death wish for fellow human beings, even the
>>> person
>>> > quoted understood that an important mental capacity has been lost:
>>> empathy,
>>> > or the ability to model other people?s minds. When we lose that en
>>> masse,
>>> > the results can be tragic, not least because getting through this must
>>> be a
>>> > group effort.
>>> >
>>> > As I understand it, there are two main approaches to public health in
>>> > liberal democracies, and both have been tried historically in different
>>> > places. One begins voluntarily, out of respect for civil liberties, but
>>> > switches to coercion when some voluntary ceiling, deemed insufficient,
>>> is
>>> > reached. Ideally, this intervention is based on the principle of
>>> > least-necessary coercion. The benefit to this is that it may work to
>>> get
>>> > more people vaccinated in shorter order. But it also conveys that the
>>> > government does not trust its citizens to make good decisions on their
>>> own,
>>> > a condescension that in turn?this is human nature 101?eventually
>>> generates
>>> > resentment, even revolt, and the disengagement of significant segments
>>> of
>>> > the population. The other approach, participatory public health, sees
>>> the
>>> > need for coercion as a sign that something in the public health
>>> outreach
>>> > itself has failed; if a ceiling is reached, society?s leaders should
>>> not
>>> > simply resort to force but rather confront the flaws in their own
>>> > leadership?that they should double-down on their responsibility to
>>> generate
>>> > trust in the public. The goal of participatory public health is not to
>>> > crush, but to better engage.
>>> >
>>> > In that spirit, what follows is an attempt by a physician and
>>> neuroscience
>>> > writer and someone who got vaccinated, early and voluntarily, to
>>> understand
>>> > those who have not made this choice. This essay is not about
>>> COVID-deniers
>>> > or anti-vaxxers, who oppose vaccines on ideological grounds. Nor is it
>>> > about the activists or political figures who feed off and benefit from
>>> the
>>> > corrosive discourse around vaccines. It is instead about the vaccine
>>> > hesitant?those who are concerned and anxious about COVID but *also*
>>> anxious
>>> > about these new vaccines. These are the people who are not yet
>>> vaccinated
>>> > for reasons that the majority may not understand?and which are often
>>> more
>>> > anchored in history and experience than the majority would suspect.
>>> They
>>> > are the Tocquevillian minority that the majority is threatening with
>>> job
>>> > loss and other restrictions.
>>> >
>>> > One needn?t agree with the decisions or actions of the vaccine
>>> hesitant in
>>> > order to learn something from them and about them, and about society
>>> as a
>>> > whole. They pay attention to, and are vigilant about, different issues
>>> than
>>> > the vaccinated, and have strong feelings about the people and
>>> institutions
>>> > involved in our public health?particularly politicians, the drug
>>> regulatory
>>> > process, and pharmaceutical companies. For many, vaccine hesitancy is
>>> not
>>> > simply about the vaccines; it?s about the absence of faith in the wider
>>> > systems that brought us the vaccines. ?Public health moves at the
>>> speed of
>>> > trust,? notes physician and author Rishi Manchanda. If we want our
>>> public
>>> > health system to function better?safer, swifter, in ways that more
>>> > effectively safeguard the lives and livelihoods of all citizens?it
>>> must be
>>> > rooted not in coercion but in confidence, and not only among the
>>> majority.
>>> >
>>> > Thanks again Rosa! Wishing you and all list serve members PEACE! IF
>>> the
>>> > world was truly open to the best ideas to do the most good for all of
>>> > humanity, then Open Space Technology would be mandated and there would
>>> be
>>> > Statues of Harrison Owen in every town square and marketplace of Ideas
>>> in
>>> > the World.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 1:55 PM Rosa Zubizarreta <rosa at diapraxis.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > Ok... I don't know Mark or his motives.
>>> > > I do think this is a topic worthy of serious and considered
>>> conversation.
>>> > >
>>> > > The best example I have seen so far,
>>> > > of someone who is in favor of vaccines, attempting to understand the
>>> > > viewpoint of those who are hesitant or skeptical,
>>> > > is Norman Doidge's four-part series called "Needlepoints".
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/science/articles/needle-points-vaccinations-chapter-one
>>> > >
>>> > > I don't know the author, but I sure wish I did...
>>> > > apparently he's written a number of NYT best-sellers on
>>> neuroplasticity.
>>> > > Very erudite person, and lovely writer.
>>> > >
>>> > > And very thoughtful -- and thought-provoking -- perspectives.
>>> > >
>>> > > all best wishes,
>>> > >
>>> > > Rosaa
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > * <http://diapraxis.com>*
>>> > > *Rosa Zubizarreta *
>>> > > *DiaPraxis: Awakening the Spirit of Creative Collaboration
>>> > > <http://diapraxis.com>*
>>> > > *coaching in participatory leadership *
>>> > > *advanced group facilitation services & learning opportunities*
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:15 PM Koos de Heer via OSList <
>>> > > oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > >> Dear Mark,
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >> The one and only burning question I have is: why???
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Why do you post a quote like that, saying that it is not your words
>>> but
>>> > >> posting it nonetheless? And when someone objects, you repeat the
>>> quote
>>> > >> about society and truth, implying that you do indeed support the
>>> text
>>> > you
>>> > >> posted. And then you write that you agree with John that this kind
>>> of
>>> > >> disinformation does not belong here. If you agree with that, why do
>>> you
>>> > >> post it in the first place?
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Is it just to play with us? To see who takes the bait and makes a
>>> fool
>>> > of
>>> > >> himself? If it is, PLEASE go play somewhere else.
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >> If this means I just made a fool of myself ? so be it. It feels like
>>> > >> bullying and I am sick of it. I want this to be a safe place.
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Koos
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >> *Van:* OSList <oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org> *Namens
>>> *Mark
>>> > >> Carmel via OSList
>>> > >> *Verzonden:* donderdag 20 januari 2022 23:57
>>> > >> *Aan:* John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com>
>>> > >> *CC:* Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com>; World wide Open Space
>>> > >> Technology email list <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>>> > >> *Onderwerp:* Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >> I agree with you John...
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >> On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 3:38 PM John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> > >>
>>> > >> I?m sorry but I do not think this kind of massive disinformation and
>>> > >> political agenda belongs on this list.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Sent from John's iPhone
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >> On Jan 20, 2022, at 2:35 PM, Mark Carmel via OSList <
>>> > >> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>>> > >>
>>> > >> ?
>>> > >>
>>> > >> These are not my thoughts or my words. I Do not know the author.
>>> But
>>> > >> here is food for thought, or better put... here is a shot for a
>>> > thought...
>>> > >> that I wanted to share with YOU, the World's greatest peacemakers:
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Quote from author unknown: ...Among all the vaccines I have known
>>> in
>>> > my
>>> > >> life (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, measles, rubella, chickenpox,
>>> > >> hepatitis, meningitis and tuberculosis), I want to also add flu and
>>> > >> pneumonia. I have never seen a vaccine that forced me to wear a
>>> mask and
>>> > >> maintain my social distance, even when you are fully vaccinated. I
>>> had
>>> > >> never heard of a vaccine that spreads the virus even after
>>> vaccination.
>>> > I
>>> > >> had never heard of rewards, discounts, incentives to get
>>> vaccinated. I
>>> > >> never saw discrimination for those who didn't. If you haven't been
>>> > >> vaccinated no one has tried to make you feel like a bad person. I
>>> have
>>> > >> never seen a vaccine that threatens the relationship between family,
>>> > >> colleagues and friends. I have never seen a vaccine used to threaten
>>> > >> livelihoods, work or school. I have never seen a vaccine that would
>>> > allow a
>>> > >> 12-year-old to override parental consent. After all the vaccines I
>>> > listed
>>> > >> above, I have never seen a vaccine like this one, which
>>> discriminates,
>>> > >> divides and judges society as it is. And as the social fabric
>>> tightens?
>>> > >> It's a powerful vaccine! She does all these things except
>>> IMMUNIZATION.
>>> > If
>>> > >> we still need a booster dose after we are fully vaccinated, and we
>>> still
>>> > >> need to get a negative test after we are fully vaccinated, and we
>>> still
>>> > >> need to wear a mask after we are fully vaccinated, and still be
>>> > >> hospitalized after we have been fully vaccinated, it will likely
>>> come to
>>> > >> ...It's time for us to admit that we've been completely
>>> deceived... I
>>> > >> have decided to never refer to this conglomerate of chemicals as a
>>> > >> ...vaccine.. again if at all possible. It is not a legitimate
>>> > vaccine, it
>>> > >> is a manufactured composition of unknown substances pretending to be
>>> > >> something it IS NOT. So, for me, I will only refer to it as an
>>> > INJECTION,
>>> > >> which is being forced upon us to subject us to TOTAL AUTHORITATIVE
>>> > CONTROL
>>> > >> of every aspect of our lives until every human being on this planet
>>> has
>>> > >> been made a subject of the ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT, ONE WORLD ECONOMY,
>>> ONE
>>> > >> WORLD RELIGION just as has been foretold by many Prophecies in
>>> SCRIPTURE
>>> > >> for untold years. This so-called virus was instituted by design by
>>> > those
>>> > >> whose agendum is TOTAL population CONTROL... - B.S.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> ...The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will hate
>>> > >> those who speak it...--George Orwell
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >> MC the MC
>>> > >>
>>> > >> _______________________________________________
>>> > >> OSList mailing list
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>>> > >>
>>> > >> _______________________________________________
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>>> > >>
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>>> > >> Past archives can be viewed here:
>>> > >> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>>> > >
>>> > >
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>>> > >
>>> >
>>> > ------------------------------
>>> >
>>> > Message: 2
>>> > Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 23:33:02 +0000
>>> > From: paul levy <paul at cats3000.net>
>>> > To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
>>> > <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>>> > Cc: Rosa Zubizarreta <rosa at diapraxis.com>, Mark Carmel
>>> > <markacarmel at gmail.com>
>>> > Subject: Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
>>> > Message-ID:
>>> > <CAAnJsbA_UMg5NCdYzKiySO1r-xN8JXR794Xwj-wRej5AF=
>>> > C3mA at mail.gmail.com>
>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>> >
>>> > I still say the vaccinating at Top Shop was a rather jolly affair.
>>> >
>>> > Paul
>>> >
>>> > On Fri, 21 Jan 2022, 22:42 Mark Carmel via OSList, <
>>> > oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > Rosa Zubizarreta, thank YOU so very much for this truly awe
>>> inspiring,
>>> > > interesting and intellectually important reference to needle points!
>>> > >
>>> > > I took special notice of the line:
>>> > > ... an infected person may at first show only the mildest and
>>> nonspecific
>>> > > symptoms, such as a cough or sniffle, before they become deathly
>>> ill...
>>> > >
>>> > > It is SO TRUE, that ALL colds start with a sniffle, cough, or start
>>> of a
>>> > > sore throat. That is our body and mind's way of telling us it's time
>>> to
>>> > > start the fight against the bug bringing on these basic symptoms.
>>> But oh
>>> > > no, that's not what our medical geniuses tell us... it is all right
>>> there
>>> > > in black and white for anyone who gets covid, you get the same piece
>>> of
>>> > > paper from all of group thinkers from CDC, WHO, NIH, Etc on down to
>>> local
>>> > > docs, who say: ...if you get covid DO NOTHING! Except run and hide
>>> from
>>> > > your pets, family and friends... And you are also advised to spray
>>> > chemical
>>> > > cleaners (that you are then breathing in the whole time) on
>>> everything
>>> > you
>>> > > touch, each time you touch it, every day while in solitary
>>> confinement.
>>> > > Then, say our health gurus, when you cant breath, and only then, you
>>> > should
>>> > > do something...go to the hospital, call an ambulance. Others who do
>>> > nothing
>>> > > and wait until they cant breathe literally call the undertaker as
>>> they
>>> > > pull out a pistol and shoot themselves. Suicide skyrocketing now
>>> during
>>> > > this disease. My solution is simple and better and it works... The
>>> moment
>>> > > you feel a runny nose or sore throat, cough, etc., gargle with hot
>>> salt
>>> > > water and rinse your nose with a saline rinse...bye bye bugs...!
>>> > >
>>> > > I also take note of another great point in your Needle Points
>>> reference,
>>> > > Rosa, and thank you most gratefully for this one also... not because
>>> it
>>> > > proves my point on leadership loyalty and retaliation for failure to
>>> do
>>> > so,
>>> > > but because it is a profound truth that all OST facilitators should
>>> > > understand before sending participants into the new lion's den known
>>> as
>>> > > open and honest input, giving people the liberty to express one's
>>> > opinion.
>>> > > Here is that great point:
>>> > >
>>> > > ...One person who understood how this works intuitively was Alexis de
>>> > > Tocqueville. In democracies, as long as there is not yet a majority
>>> > > opinion, a range of views can be expressed, and it appears there is a
>>> > great
>>> > > ?liberty of opinion,? to use his phrase. But once a majority opinion
>>> > forms,
>>> > > it acquires a sudden social power, and it brings with it pressure to
>>> end
>>> > > dissent. A powerful new kind of censorship and coercion begins in
>>> > everyday
>>> > > life (at work, school, choir, church, hospitals, in all
>>> institutions) as
>>> > > the majority turns on the minority, demanding it comply. Tocqueville,
>>> > like
>>> > > James Madison, was concerned about this ?the tyranny of the
>>> majority,?
>>> > > which he saw as the Achilles? heel of democracy. It isn?t only
>>> because
>>> > > divisiveness created a minority faction steeped in lingering
>>> resentment;
>>> > > it?s also because minorities can sometimes be more right than
>>> majorities
>>> > > (indeed, emerging ideas are, by definition, minority ideas to start
>>> > with).
>>> > > The majority overtaking the minority could mean stamping out
>>> thoughts and
>>> > > actions that would otherwise generate progress and forward
>>> movement...
>>> > >
>>> > > ...It is a fascinating moment when this sort of crystallization
>>> happens
>>> > in
>>> > > a mass culture like America?s, because seemingly overnight even the
>>> > > definition of legitimate speech (or thought or action) also changes.
>>> > > Tocqueville observed that quite abruptly a person can no longer
>>> express
>>> > > opinions or raise questions that only days before were acceptable,
>>> even
>>> > > though no facts of the matter have changed. At an individual level,
>>> > people
>>> > > who were within the bounds can be surprised to find themselves
>>> > ...tormented
>>> > > by the slights and persecutions of daily obloquy... Once this
>>> occurs, he
>>> > > wrote, ...your fellow-creatures will shun you like an impure being,
>>> and
>>> > > those who are most persuaded of your innocence will abandon you too,
>>> lest
>>> > > they should be shunned in their turn...
>>> > >
>>> > > In the midst of a pandemic, seeing the unvaccinated as ?impure? is no
>>> > > surprise, because of course they could carry contagion. But as
>>> > Tocqueville
>>> > > pointed out, this *also* occurs when there is no contagion, and we
>>> begin
>>> > > to experience those who are on the wrong side as ?impure??as in
>>> failing
>>> > the
>>> > > purity test?and react to them as though they are dangerous. That we
>>> do
>>> > this
>>> > > even when there is no pandemic suggests that there is, along with
>>> > realistic
>>> > > fear of infection, something else going on here?a sense that those
>>> with
>>> > > whom we may disagree are impurities in the body politic, bad people
>>> who
>>> > > need to be taught a lesson, even punished.
>>> > > A final poignant point to me in your piece Rosa was this gem talking
>>> > about
>>> > > what we do! Facilitating THE participatory proceess of OST. Here in
>>> > > context of public health.
>>> > >
>>> > > June 2021 Gallup
>>> > > <
>>> >
>>> https://news.gallup.com/poll/350720/covid-vaccine-reluctant-likely-stay.aspx
>>> >
>>> > poll
>>> > > found that, among the vaccinated, 53% now worry most about those
>>> choosing
>>> > > not to get vaccinated, ?surpassing concerns about lack of social
>>> > distancing
>>> > > in their area (27%), availability of local hospital resources and
>>> > supplies
>>> > > (11%), and availability of coronavirus tests in their area (5%).?
>>> True to
>>> > > the BIS?s impulses, this fear is metastasizing into disgust, even
>>> hatred,
>>> > > of those who?because they believe or act differently?are now
>>> perceived as
>>> > > threats: On Aug. 26, in a front-page story in the *Toronto Star*, my
>>> > > local newspaper, a resident was quoted as saying: ...I have no
>>> empathy
>>> > left
>>> > > for the willfully unvaccinated. Let them die...
>>> > >
>>> > > In the midst of such a death wish for fellow human beings, even the
>>> > person
>>> > > quoted understood that an important mental capacity has been lost:
>>> > empathy,
>>> > > or the ability to model other people?s minds. When we lose that en
>>> masse,
>>> > > the results can be tragic, not least because getting through this
>>> must
>>> > be a
>>> > > group effort.
>>> > >
>>> > > As I understand it, there are two main approaches to public health in
>>> > > liberal democracies, and both have been tried historically in
>>> different
>>> > > places. One begins voluntarily, out of respect for civil liberties,
>>> but
>>> > > switches to coercion when some voluntary ceiling, deemed
>>> insufficient, is
>>> > > reached. Ideally, this intervention is based on the principle of
>>> > > least-necessary coercion. The benefit to this is that it may work to
>>> get
>>> > > more people vaccinated in shorter order. But it also conveys that the
>>> > > government does not trust its citizens to make good decisions on
>>> their
>>> > own,
>>> > > a condescension that in turn?this is human nature 101?eventually
>>> > generates
>>> > > resentment, even revolt, and the disengagement of significant
>>> segments of
>>> > > the population. The other approach, participatory public health,
>>> sees the
>>> > > need for coercion as a sign that something in the public health
>>> outreach
>>> > > itself has failed; if a ceiling is reached, society?s leaders should
>>> not
>>> > > simply resort to force but rather confront the flaws in their own
>>> > > leadership?that they should double-down on their responsibility to
>>> > generate
>>> > > trust in the public. The goal of participatory public health is not
>>> to
>>> > > crush, but to better engage.
>>> > >
>>> > > In that spirit, what follows is an attempt by a physician and
>>> > neuroscience
>>> > > writer and someone who got vaccinated, early and voluntarily, to
>>> > understand
>>> > > those who have not made this choice. This essay is not about
>>> > COVID-deniers
>>> > > or anti-vaxxers, who oppose vaccines on ideological grounds. Nor is
>>> it
>>> > > about the activists or political figures who feed off and benefit
>>> from
>>> > the
>>> > > corrosive discourse around vaccines. It is instead about the vaccine
>>> > > hesitant?those who are concerned and anxious about COVID but *also*
>>> > anxious
>>> > > about these new vaccines. These are the people who are not yet
>>> vaccinated
>>> > > for reasons that the majority may not understand?and which are often
>>> more
>>> > > anchored in history and experience than the majority would suspect.
>>> They
>>> > > are the Tocquevillian minority that the majority is threatening with
>>> job
>>> > > loss and other restrictions.
>>> > >
>>> > > One needn?t agree with the decisions or actions of the vaccine
>>> hesitant
>>> > in
>>> > > order to learn something from them and about them, and about society
>>> as a
>>> > > whole. They pay attention to, and are vigilant about, different
>>> issues
>>> > than
>>> > > the vaccinated, and have strong feelings about the people and
>>> > institutions
>>> > > involved in our public health?particularly politicians, the drug
>>> > regulatory
>>> > > process, and pharmaceutical companies. For many, vaccine hesitancy
>>> is not
>>> > > simply about the vaccines; it?s about the absence of faith in the
>>> wider
>>> > > systems that brought us the vaccines. ?Public health moves at the
>>> speed
>>> > of
>>> > > trust,? notes physician and author Rishi Manchanda. If we want our
>>> public
>>> > > health system to function better?safer, swifter, in ways that more
>>> > > effectively safeguard the lives and livelihoods of all citizens?it
>>> must
>>> > be
>>> > > rooted not in coercion but in confidence, and not only among the
>>> > majority.
>>> > >
>>> > > Thanks again Rosa! Wishing you and all list serve members PEACE!
>>> IF the
>>> > > world was truly open to the best ideas to do the most good for all of
>>> > > humanity, then Open Space Technology would be mandated and there
>>> would be
>>> > > Statues of Harrison Owen in every town square and marketplace of
>>> Ideas in
>>> > > the World.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > On Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 1:55 PM Rosa Zubizarreta <rosa at diapraxis.com>
>>> > wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > >> Ok... I don't know Mark or his motives.
>>> > >> I do think this is a topic worthy of serious and considered
>>> > conversation.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> The best example I have seen so far,
>>> > >> of someone who is in favor of vaccines, attempting to understand the
>>> > >> viewpoint of those who are hesitant or skeptical,
>>> > >> is Norman Doidge's four-part series called "Needlepoints".
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> >
>>> https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/science/articles/needle-points-vaccinations-chapter-one
>>> > >>
>>> > >> I don't know the author, but I sure wish I did...
>>> > >> apparently he's written a number of NYT best-sellers on
>>> neuroplasticity.
>>> > >> Very erudite person, and lovely writer.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> And very thoughtful -- and thought-provoking -- perspectives.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> all best wishes,
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Rosaa
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >> * <http://diapraxis.com>*
>>> > >> *Rosa Zubizarreta *
>>> > >> *DiaPraxis: Awakening the Spirit of Creative Collaboration
>>> > >> <http://diapraxis.com>*
>>> > >> *coaching in participatory leadership *
>>> > >> *advanced group facilitation services & learning opportunities*
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:15 PM Koos de Heer via OSList <
>>> > >> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>>> > >>
>>> > >>> Dear Mark,
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> The one and only burning question I have is: why???
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> Why do you post a quote like that, saying that it is not your
>>> words but
>>> > >>> posting it nonetheless? And when someone objects, you repeat the
>>> quote
>>> > >>> about society and truth, implying that you do indeed support the
>>> text
>>> > you
>>> > >>> posted. And then you write that you agree with John that this kind
>>> of
>>> > >>> disinformation does not belong here. If you agree with that, why
>>> do you
>>> > >>> post it in the first place?
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> Is it just to play with us? To see who takes the bait and makes a
>>> fool
>>> > >>> of himself? If it is, PLEASE go play somewhere else.
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> If this means I just made a fool of myself ? so be it. It feels
>>> like
>>> > >>> bullying and I am sick of it. I want this to be a safe place.
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> Koos
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> *Van:* OSList <oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org> *Namens
>>> *Mark
>>> > >>> Carmel via OSList
>>> > >>> *Verzonden:* donderdag 20 januari 2022 23:57
>>> > >>> *Aan:* John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com>
>>> > >>> *CC:* Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com>; World wide Open Space
>>> > >>> Technology email list <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>>> > >>> *Onderwerp:* Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> I agree with you John...
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 3:38 PM John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> I?m sorry but I do not think this kind of massive disinformation
>>> and
>>> > >>> political agenda belongs on this list.
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> Sent from John's iPhone
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> On Jan 20, 2022, at 2:35 PM, Mark Carmel via OSList <
>>> > >>> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> ?
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> These are not my thoughts or my words. I Do not know the author.
>>> But
>>> > >>> here is food for thought, or better put... here is a shot for a
>>> > thought...
>>> > >>> that I wanted to share with YOU, the World's greatest peacemakers:
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> Quote from author unknown: ...Among all the vaccines I have
>>> known in
>>> > >>> my life (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, measles, rubella,
>>> chickenpox,
>>> > >>> hepatitis, meningitis and tuberculosis), I want to also add flu and
>>> > >>> pneumonia. I have never seen a vaccine that forced me to wear a
>>> mask
>>> > and
>>> > >>> maintain my social distance, even when you are fully vaccinated. I
>>> had
>>> > >>> never heard of a vaccine that spreads the virus even after
>>> > vaccination. I
>>> > >>> had never heard of rewards, discounts, incentives to get
>>> vaccinated. I
>>> > >>> never saw discrimination for those who didn't. If you haven't been
>>> > >>> vaccinated no one has tried to make you feel like a bad person. I
>>> have
>>> > >>> never seen a vaccine that threatens the relationship between
>>> family,
>>> > >>> colleagues and friends. I have never seen a vaccine used to
>>> threaten
>>> > >>> livelihoods, work or school. I have never seen a vaccine that would
>>> > allow a
>>> > >>> 12-year-old to override parental consent. After all the vaccines I
>>> > listed
>>> > >>> above, I have never seen a vaccine like this one, which
>>> discriminates,
>>> > >>> divides and judges society as it is. And as the social fabric
>>> tightens?
>>> > >>> It's a powerful vaccine! She does all these things except
>>> > IMMUNIZATION. If
>>> > >>> we still need a booster dose after we are fully vaccinated, and we
>>> > still
>>> > >>> need to get a negative test after we are fully vaccinated, and we
>>> still
>>> > >>> need to wear a mask after we are fully vaccinated, and still be
>>> > >>> hospitalized after we have been fully vaccinated, it will likely
>>> come
>>> > to
>>> > >>> ...It's time for us to admit that we've been completely
>>> deceived... I
>>> > >>> have decided to never refer to this conglomerate of chemicals as a
>>> > >>> ...vaccine.. again if at all possible. It is not a legitimate
>>> > vaccine, it
>>> > >>> is a manufactured composition of unknown substances pretending to
>>> be
>>> > >>> something it IS NOT. So, for me, I will only refer to it as an
>>> > INJECTION,
>>> > >>> which is being forced upon us to subject us to TOTAL AUTHORITATIVE
>>> > CONTROL
>>> > >>> of every aspect of our lives until every human being on this
>>> planet has
>>> > >>> been made a subject of the ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT, ONE WORLD
>>> ECONOMY, ONE
>>> > >>> WORLD RELIGION just as has been foretold by many Prophecies in
>>> > SCRIPTURE
>>> > >>> for untold years. This so-called virus was instituted by design by
>>> > those
>>> > >>> whose agendum is TOTAL population CONTROL... - B.S.
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> ...The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will
>>> hate
>>> > >>> those who speak it...--George Orwell
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> MC the MC
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> _______________________________________________
>>> > >>> OSList mailing list
>>> > >>> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
>>> > >>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>> OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
>>> > >>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
>>> > >>>
>>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>>> > >>> Past archives can be viewed here:
>>> > >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> _______________________________________________
>>> > >>> OSList mailing list
>>> > >>> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
>>> > >>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>> OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
>>> > >>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
>>> > >>>
>>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>>> > >>> Past archives can be viewed here:
>>> > >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>>> > >>
>>> > >> _______________________________________________
>>> > > OSList mailing list
>>> > > To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
>>> > > To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
>>> > > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
>>> > > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>>> > > Past archives can be viewed here:
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>>> > >
>>> >
>>> > ------------------------------
>>> >
>>> > Message: 3
>>> > Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 15:37:25 +0000
>>> > From: "Marc C. Trudeau" <marctrudeau at alum.wpi.edu>
>>> > To: "OSList (email to post)" <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>>> > Subject: Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
>>> > Message-ID: <E1F7AA9E-56F9-494E-B7FA-D70AF7255CC5 at alum.wpi.edu>
>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>> >
>>> > I observe that this topic is incredibly triggering for all of us,
>>> > everyone, me included. (It?s not news to this group that the
>>> structures and
>>> > institutions that served us in the industrial age are not coping well
>>> with
>>> > the complexities of today.) I?m drawn to ask myself, what?s the
>>> > common/universal thread? Is it that this pandemic (and possible climate
>>> > collapse, on its heels) have every one of us feeling completely
>>> powerless
>>> > for the first time in recent memory? The last huge pandemic was ~1920.
>>> > Elders who remember the global conflagration that was WWII are nearly
>>> all
>>> > gone.
>>> >
>>> > Who are the most experienced/expert in living in powerlessness? What
>>> can
>>> > we learn from them?
>>> >
>>> > Peace and love,
>>> >
>>> > Marc
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Marc Trudeau
>>> > mobile 774-641-8302
>>> >
>>> > LikeBreathin.com<http://LikeBreathin.com>
>>> >
>>> > [cid:2EB09BBC-1735-4700-ACEC-73F6D1DDD1F7]
>>> >
>>> > Effective teamwork and team leadership feel nearly effortless, Like
>>> > Breathin??. Partner with us to experience how.
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>>> > >
>>> >
>>> > ------------------------------
>>> >
>>> > Message: 4
>>> > Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 21:18:29 +0100
>>> > From: <koos at auryn.nl>
>>> > To: "'Mark Carmel'" <markacarmel at gmail.com>, "'Rosa Zubizarreta'"
>>> > <rosa at diapraxis.com>
>>> > Cc: "'World wide Open Space Technology email list'"
>>> > <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>>> > Subject: Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
>>> > Message-ID: <02e801d80fcd$389634f0$a9c29ed0$@auryn.nl>
>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>> >
>>> > There is one point you seem to miss, Mark. The fact that the author
>>> > understands and explains a phenomenon, does not mean he supports it.
>>> The
>>> > fact that the authorities are clumsy in their ways of coercion, does
>>> not
>>> > mean that the behavior they are trying to promote is wrong. The author
>>> is
>>> > not against vaccination, on the contrary. The whole point of the piece
>>> is
>>> > about short-sighted change management and has very little to do with
>>> Covid,
>>> > which is just an example in a much bigger picture he is painting. The
>>> way
>>> > you are twisting this into an anti-vax argument is creative, but wrong.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Van: Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com>
>>> > Verzonden: vrijdag 21 januari 2022 23:43
>>> > Aan: Rosa Zubizarreta <rosa at diapraxis.com>
>>> > CC: World wide Open Space Technology email list <
>>> > oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>; Koos de Heer <koos at auryn.nl>
>>> > Onderwerp: Who is BS-ing Whom?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Rosa Zubizarreta, thank YOU so very much for this truly awe inspiring,
>>> > interesting and intellectually important reference to needle points!
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > I took special notice of the line:
>>> >
>>> > ... an infected person may at first show only the mildest and
>>> nonspecific
>>> > symptoms, such as a cough or sniffle, before they become deathly ill...
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > It is SO TRUE, that ALL colds start with a sniffle, cough, or start of
>>> a
>>> > sore throat. That is our body and mind's way of telling us it's time to
>>> > start the fight against the bug bringing on these basic symptoms. But
>>> oh
>>> > no, that's not what our medical geniuses tell us... it is all right
>>> there
>>> > in black and white for anyone who gets covid, you get the same piece of
>>> > paper from all of group thinkers from CDC, WHO, NIH, Etc on down to
>>> local
>>> > docs, who say: ...if you get covid DO NOTHING! Except run and hide
>>> from
>>> > your pets, family and friends... And you are also advised to spray
>>> chemical
>>> > cleaners (that you are then breathing in the whole time) on everything
>>> you
>>> > touch, each time you touch it, every day while in solitary confinement.
>>> > Then, say our health gurus, when you cant breath, and only then, you
>>> should
>>> > do something...go to the hospital, call an ambulance. Others who do
>>> nothing
>>> > and wait until they cant breathe literally call the undertaker as they
>>> > pull out a pistol and shoot themselves.
>>> > Suicide skyrocketing now during this disease. My solution is simple
>>> and
>>> > better and it works... The moment you feel a runny nose or sore throat,
>>> > cough, etc., gargle with hot salt water and rinse your nose with a
>>> saline
>>> > rinse...bye bye bugs...!
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > I also take note of another great point in your Needle Points
>>> reference,
>>> > Rosa, and thank you most gratefully for this one also... not because it
>>> > proves my point on leadership loyalty and retaliation for failure to
>>> do so,
>>> > but because it is a profound truth that all OST facilitators should
>>> > understand before sending participants into the new lion's den known as
>>> > open and honest input, giving people the liberty to express one's
>>> opinion.
>>> > Here is that great point:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ...One person who understood how this works intuitively was Alexis de
>>> > Tocqueville. In democracies, as long as there is not yet a majority
>>> > opinion, a range of views can be expressed, and it appears there is a
>>> great
>>> > ?liberty of opinion,? to use his phrase. But once a majority opinion
>>> forms,
>>> > it acquires a sudden social power, and it brings with it pressure to
>>> end
>>> > dissent. A powerful new kind of censorship and coercion begins in
>>> everyday
>>> > life (at work, school, choir, church, hospitals, in all institutions)
>>> as
>>> > the majority turns on the minority, demanding it comply. Tocqueville,
>>> like
>>> > James Madison, was concerned about this ?the tyranny of the majority,?
>>> > which he saw as the Achilles? heel of democracy. It isn?t only because
>>> > divisiveness created a minority faction steeped in lingering
>>> resentment;
>>> > it?s also because minorities can sometimes be more right than
>>> majorities
>>> > (indeed, emerging ideas are, by definition, minority ideas to start
>>> with).
>>> > The majority overtaking the minority could mean s
>>> > tamping out thoughts and actions that would otherwise generate
>>> progress
>>> > and forward movement...
>>> >
>>> > ...It is a fascinating moment when this sort of crystallization
>>> happens in
>>> > a mass culture like America?s, because seemingly overnight even the
>>> > definition of legitimate speech (or thought or action) also changes.
>>> > Tocqueville observed that quite abruptly a person can no longer express
>>> > opinions or raise questions that only days before were acceptable, even
>>> > though no facts of the matter have changed. At an individual level,
>>> people
>>> > who were within the bounds can be surprised to find themselves
>>> ...tormented
>>> > by the slights and persecutions of daily obloquy... Once this occurs,
>>> he
>>> > wrote, ...your fellow-creatures will shun you like an impure being, and
>>> > those who are most persuaded of your innocence will abandon you too,
>>> lest
>>> > they should be shunned in their turn...
>>> >
>>> > In the midst of a pandemic, seeing the unvaccinated as ?impure? is no
>>> > surprise, because of course they could carry contagion. But as
>>> Tocqueville
>>> > pointed out, this also occurs when there is no contagion, and we begin
>>> to
>>> > experience those who are on the wrong side as ?impure??as in failing
>>> the
>>> > purity test?and react to them as though they are dangerous. That we do
>>> this
>>> > even when there is no pandemic suggests that there is, along with
>>> realistic
>>> > fear of infection, something else going on here?a sense that those with
>>> > whom we may disagree are impurities in the body politic, bad people who
>>> > need to be taught a lesson, even punished.
>>> >
>>> > A final poignant point to me in your piece Rosa was this gem talking
>>> about
>>> > what we do! Facilitating THE participatory proceess of OST. Here in
>>> > context of public health.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > June 2021 <
>>> >
>>> https://news.gallup.com/poll/350720/covid-vaccine-reluctant-likely-stay.aspx
>>> >
>>> > Gallup poll found that, among the vaccinated, 53% now worry most about
>>> > those choosing not to get vaccinated, ?surpassing concerns about lack
>>> of
>>> > social distancing in their area (27%), availability of local hospital
>>> > resources and supplies (11%), and availability of coronavirus tests in
>>> > their area (5%).? True to the BIS?s impulses, this fear is
>>> metastasizing
>>> > into disgust, even hatred, of those who?because they believe or act
>>> > differently?are now perceived as threats: On Aug. 26, in a front-page
>>> story
>>> > in the Toronto Star, my local newspaper, a resident was quoted as
>>> saying:
>>> > ...I have no empathy left for the willfully unvaccinated. Let them
>>> die...
>>> >
>>> > In the midst of such a death wish for fellow human beings, even the
>>> person
>>> > quoted understood that an important mental capacity has been lost:
>>> empathy,
>>> > or the ability to model other people?s minds. When we lose that en
>>> masse,
>>> > the results can be tragic, not least because getting through this must
>>> be a
>>> > group effort.
>>> >
>>> > As I understand it, there are two main approaches to public health in
>>> > liberal democracies, and both have been tried historically in different
>>> > places. One begins voluntarily, out of respect for civil liberties, but
>>> > switches to coercion when some voluntary ceiling, deemed insufficient,
>>> is
>>> > reached. Ideally, this intervention is based on the principle of
>>> > least-necessary coercion. The benefit to this is that it may work to
>>> get
>>> > more people vaccinated in shorter order. But it also conveys that the
>>> > government does not trust its citizens to make good decisions on their
>>> own,
>>> > a condescension that in turn?this is human nature 101?eventually
>>> generates
>>> > resentment, even revolt, and the disengagement of significant segments
>>> of
>>> > the population. The other approach, participatory public health, sees
>>> the
>>> > need for coercion as a sign that something in the public health
>>> outreach
>>> > itself has failed; if a ceiling is reached, society?s leaders should
>>> not
>>> > simply resort to force but rather confront the flaws in t
>>> > heir own leadership?that they should double-down on their
>>> responsibility
>>> > to generate trust in the public. The goal of participatory public
>>> health is
>>> > not to crush, but to better engage.
>>> >
>>> > In that spirit, what follows is an attempt by a physician and
>>> neuroscience
>>> > writer and someone who got vaccinated, early and voluntarily, to
>>> understand
>>> > those who have not made this choice. This essay is not about
>>> COVID-deniers
>>> > or anti-vaxxers, who oppose vaccines on ideological grounds. Nor is it
>>> > about the activists or political figures who feed off and benefit from
>>> the
>>> > corrosive discourse around vaccines. It is instead about the vaccine
>>> > hesitant?those who are concerned and anxious about COVID but also
>>> anxious
>>> > about these new vaccines. These are the people who are not yet
>>> vaccinated
>>> > for reasons that the majority may not understand?and which are often
>>> more
>>> > anchored in history and experience than the majority would suspect.
>>> They
>>> > are the Tocquevillian minority that the majority is threatening with
>>> job
>>> > loss and other restrictions.
>>> >
>>> > One needn?t agree with the decisions or actions of the vaccine
>>> hesitant in
>>> > order to learn something from them and about them, and about society
>>> as a
>>> > whole. They pay attention to, and are vigilant about, different issues
>>> than
>>> > the vaccinated, and have strong feelings about the people and
>>> institutions
>>> > involved in our public health?particularly politicians, the drug
>>> regulatory
>>> > process, and pharmaceutical companies. For many, vaccine hesitancy is
>>> not
>>> > simply about the vaccines; it?s about the absence of faith in the wider
>>> > systems that brought us the vaccines. ?Public health moves at the
>>> speed of
>>> > trust,? notes physician and author Rishi Manchanda. If we want our
>>> public
>>> > health system to function better?safer, swifter, in ways that more
>>> > effectively safeguard the lives and livelihoods of all citizens?it
>>> must be
>>> > rooted not in coercion but in confidence, and not only among the
>>> majority.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Thanks again Rosa! Wishing you and all list serve members PEACE! IF
>>> the
>>> > world was truly open to the best ideas to do the most good for all of
>>> > humanity, then Open Space Technology would be mandated and there would
>>> be
>>> > Statues of Harrison Owen in every town square and marketplace of Ideas
>>> in
>>> > the World.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 1:55 PM Rosa Zubizarreta <rosa at diapraxis.com
>>> > <mailto:rosa at diapraxis.com> > wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Ok... I don't know Mark or his motives.
>>> >
>>> > I do think this is a topic worthy of serious and considered
>>> conversation.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > The best example I have seen so far,
>>> >
>>> > of someone who is in favor of vaccines, attempting to understand the
>>> > viewpoint of those who are hesitant or skeptical,
>>> >
>>> > is Norman Doidge's four-part series called "Needlepoints".
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/science/articles/needle-points-vaccinations-chapter-one
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > I don't know the author, but I sure wish I did...
>>> >
>>> > apparently he's written a number of NYT best-sellers on
>>> neuroplasticity.
>>> >
>>> > Very erudite person, and lovely writer.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > And very thoughtful -- and thought-provoking -- perspectives.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > all best wishes,
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Rosaa
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Rosa Zubizarreta
>>> >
>>> > <http://diapraxis.com> DiaPraxis: Awakening the Spirit of Creative
>>> > Collaboration
>>> > coaching in participatory leadership
>>> > advanced group facilitation services & learning opportunities
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:15 PM Koos de Heer via OSList <
>>> > oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>>> >
>>> > wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Dear Mark,
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > The one and only burning question I have is: why???
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Why do you post a quote like that, saying that it is not your words but
>>> > posting it nonetheless? And when someone objects, you repeat the quote
>>> > about society and truth, implying that you do indeed support the text
>>> you
>>> > posted. And then you write that you agree with John that this kind of
>>> > disinformation does not belong here. If you agree with that, why do you
>>> > post it in the first place?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Is it just to play with us? To see who takes the bait and makes a fool
>>> of
>>> > himself? If it is, PLEASE go play somewhere else.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > If this means I just made a fool of myself ? so be it. It feels like
>>> > bullying and I am sick of it. I want this to be a safe place.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Koos
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Van: OSList <oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:
>>> > oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org> > Namens Mark Carmel via
>>> OSList
>>> > Verzonden: donderdag 20 januari 2022 23:57
>>> > Aan: John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com <mailto:johnw536 at mac.com> >
>>> > CC: Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com <mailto:markacarmel at gmail.com>
>>> >;
>>> > World wide Open Space Technology email list <
>>> > oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>>> >
>>> > Onderwerp: Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > I agree with you John...
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 3:38 PM John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com
>>> <mailto:
>>> > johnw536 at mac.com> > wrote:
>>> >
>>> > I?m sorry but I do not think this kind of massive disinformation and
>>> > political agenda belongs on this list.
>>> >
>>> > Sent from John's iPhone
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Jan 20, 2022, at 2:35 PM, Mark Carmel via OSList <
>>> > oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>>> >
>>> > wrote:
>>> >
>>> > ?
>>> >
>>> > These are not my thoughts or my words. I Do not know the author. But
>>> > here is food for thought, or better put... here is a shot for a
>>> thought...
>>> > that I wanted to share with YOU, the World's greatest peacemakers:
>>> >
>>> > Quote from author unknown: ...Among all the vaccines I have known in
>>> my
>>> > life (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, measles, rubella, chickenpox,
>>> > hepatitis, meningitis and tuberculosis), I want to also add flu and
>>> > pneumonia. I have never seen a vaccine that forced me to wear a mask
>>> and
>>> > maintain my social distance, even when you are fully vaccinated. I had
>>> > never heard of a vaccine that spreads the virus even after
>>> vaccination. I
>>> > had never heard of rewards, discounts, incentives to get vaccinated. I
>>> > never saw discrimination for those who didn't. If you haven't been
>>> > vaccinated no one has tried to make you feel like a bad person. I have
>>> > never seen a vaccine that threatens the relationship between family,
>>> > colleagues and friends. I have never seen a vaccine used to threaten
>>> > livelihoods, work or school. I have never seen a vaccine that would
>>> allow a
>>> > 12-year-old to override parental consent. After all the vaccines I
>>> listed
>>> > above, I have never seen a vaccine like this one, which discriminates,
>>> di
>>> > vides and judges society as it is. And as the social fabric tightens?
>>> > It's a powerful vaccine! She does all these things except
>>> IMMUNIZATION. If
>>> > we still need a booster dose after we are fully vaccinated, and we
>>> still
>>> > need to get a negative test after we are fully vaccinated, and we still
>>> > need to wear a mask after we are fully vaccinated, and still be
>>> > hospitalized after we have been fully vaccinated, it will likely come
>>> to
>>> > ...It's time for us to admit that we've been completely deceived... I
>>> > have decided to never refer to this conglomerate of chemicals as a
>>> > ...vaccine.. again if at all possible. It is not a legitimate
>>> vaccine, it
>>> > is a manufactured composition of unknown substances pretending to be
>>> > something it IS NOT. So, for me, I will only refer to it as an
>>> INJECTION,
>>> > which is being forced upon us to subject us to TOTAL AUTHORITATIVE
>>> CONTROL
>>> > of every aspect of our lives until every human being on this planet has
>>> > been made a subject of the ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT, ONE WORLD ECONO
>>> > MY, ONE WORLD RELIGION just as has been foretold by many Prophecies in
>>> > SCRIPTURE for untold years. This so-called virus was instituted by
>>> design
>>> > by those whose agendum is TOTAL population CONTROL... - B.S.
>>> >
>>> > ...The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will hate
>>> those
>>> > who speak it...--George Orwell
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > MC the MC
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > OSList mailing list
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>>> > OSList at lists.openspacetech.org>
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>>> > <mailto:OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org>
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>>> > Past archives can be viewed here:
>>> > http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
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>>> >
>>> > ------------------------------
>>> >
>>> > Message: 5
>>> > Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 13:24:36 -0700
>>> > From: Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com>
>>> > To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
>>> > <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>>> > Subject: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom? Reply to Amanda Bucklow and
>>> > Michael Pannwitz
>>> > Message-ID:
>>> > <
>>> > CAFDvDFiM_VE+UYNHvNa5qPgtG0rzbmUvtdMLmm5gFeD_pxdbiQ at mail.gmail.com>
>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>> >
>>> > To Amanda Bucklow,
>>> > Thanks for your feedback. You fell right into what I will call the
>>> > TocquevilleTRAP that is outlined in the thoughtful link provided by
>>> Rosa
>>> > Zubizarreta on Needle Points (Thanks again Rosa!). Please allow me to
>>> take
>>> > on your hit piece, Amanda, point by point.
>>> >
>>> > But first I want to thank and commend Michael Pannwitz for your
>>> response!
>>> > You hit on points which i believe are profoundly wise. And thank you
>>> for
>>> > the story of Harrison getting his great book -The Practice of Peace -
>>> > published.
>>> >
>>> > Fascinating Michael! You said Harrison's publisher rejected the book.
>>> > Amanda, what if Harrison did what he was told (as you told me), to
>>> hush up
>>> > - ...change the subject... and as Koos told me, to get lost and ...
>>> PLEASE
>>> > go play somewhere else...? Well I guess we may not have the genius of
>>> Open
>>> > Space Technology if Harrison would have taken no for an answer and
>>> allowed
>>> > others to silence him and cancel his book of discoveries. Thanks
>>> Harrison
>>> > not giving up or giving in to your critics!
>>> > ________________
>>> >
>>> > Michael Pannwitz, you said:
>>> > They (Harrison's publisher) felt it didn't fit into their program...
>>> this
>>> > was
>>> > not the end of the book....What happened?
>>> >
>>> > ... In no time flat the book was printed and distributed and later also
>>> > translated by folks in 8 countries around the globe in North America,
>>> > Europe, near and far Asia (from the European point of view), Australia,
>>> > the Caribic ...
>>> >
>>> > Harrison called this phenomenon the "Global Chaordic Publication".
>>> >
>>> > It is the string "Who is BS-ing Whom?" that instantly fired up my
>>> > synapses which resurfaced this phehomenon... and my thoughts later on.
>>> >
>>> > Mulling over the current pandemic lets me wonder what incited the worst
>>> > pandemic on the globe.
>>> > Not surprising myself in any serious fashion I felt it is us
>>> ouselves...
>>> > like the creature in Pogo looking in a mirror seeing his enemy, see
>>> here
>>> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_have_met_the_enemy
>>> >
>>> > And what is it, at the core, that causes this disaster? Which virus is
>>> > that? What is the name of the disease this virus creates?
>>> > How about "control", the only real enemy of "selforganisation".
>>> > And who is best at controlling.
>>> > Yep, us.
>>> >
>>> > What was the impedement to publishing "The Practice of Peace"? What
>>> > hindered an established, mainstream and well known publisher to turn
>>> > down a book from an author that had a vision?
>>> >
>>> > ... If we start controlling OSLIST it will lose its meaning...
>>> >
>>> > Thanks again Michael for this profound wisdom, making two top tier
>>> points:
>>> > That the name of the REAL disease the Virus has caused is: CONTROL....
>>> and,
>>> > that:
>>> > ...control of the OS list will lose its meaning...
>>> > __________________
>>> >
>>> > Amanda, you said the following which i will respond to point by point:
>>> >
>>> > ...One of the most important things about respectful disagreement is
>>> > congruence and consistency. I notice the following in your response to
>>> > Koos:
>>> >
>>> > I said I did not agree with the posted comments.
>>> > I guess you feel the vaccine works as promised despite all the deaths
>>> we
>>> > continue to see... good for you.
>>> > I have had covid twice, initial round and omicron and killed it with
>>> table
>>> > salt in 4 days.
>>> >
>>> > I am happy to engage in respectful disagreement with those who are
>>> willing
>>> > to be called out on their mental models and I am calling you out,
>>> Mark, on
>>> > your manipulative arguments which will definitely feel like bullying to
>>> > those who find inconsistency and flip-flopping deeply disrespectful.
>>> >
>>> > Please change the subject because this is going nowhere in terms of
>>> > learning and appreciation. It certainly does not acknowledge the grief
>>> and
>>> > loss of those who couldn?t kill the virus with ?table salt? in 4 days.
>>> > ______________
>>> > OK, Amanda you are calling me out on my ...mental model... an
>>
>>
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