[OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom - Reply to Michael Hermann - final post to answer your questions - time for my two feet to MOVE on...
paul levy
paul at cats3000.net
Mon Jan 24 11:06:26 PST 2022
"He raised himself up by his own bootstraps".
Dear Mark,
The very fact your reply is here to be read;
The very fact that people wrote whatever they wrote (including threats to
remove anyone from the list);
The very fact that others chose silence or indifference, all prove how
beautifully this space is perpetually open.
You cannot cherry pick a banana.
Warm wishes from the Big Boosters' Club.
On Mon, 24 Jan 2022, 18:51 Mark Carmel via OSList, <
oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
> Michael thank you for your response and for asking a few questions. I am
> going to answer your questions and then hopefully exit this conversation
> gracefully and use the law of two feet to move somewhere else where I may
> make a difference. I would 1st like to thank you for your leadership and
> loyalty to the open space list. I offer my sincere regrets to anyone and
> everyone that I offended.
>
> Michael you asked the following questions:
>
> What was I hoping to learn?
> What did I think I was contributing?
> What does that subject matter have to do with why we are here?
> And finally can I bring the conversation back around to open space
> technology?
>
> To answer your questions I was not actually hoping to learn anything from
> that post and exchanges that followed... But I ended up learning a lot
> which I will come back to in a moment.
>
> I also had no intention or thought about contributing anything other than
> providing food for thought or a shot for a thought.
>
> Reggarding what the subject matter has to do with the reason why we are
> here, It made me realize a couple of things. 1st of all on its face my
> original post probably had very little if nothing to do with the reason why
> we are here. However upon upon experiencing the conversation that took
> place I believe it has everything to do with why we are here.
>
> And yes I will bring the conversation back around to open space technology
> now ...
>
> The conversation proves one thing. Because of the highly devisive nature
> of all of our societies right now, people should not be naive to believe
> that the world is an open place encouraging free thought and participation
> of emerging ideas or opposing viewpoints. Even our circles of friends are
> not open to opposing viewpoints. Obviously based on what happened in this
> case, when people share a thought, even if not yours, they will be subject
> to Ridicule, retaliation and rejection, as evidenced by by the
> conversation.. This represents a highly interesting and useful phenomenon.
> People want to only hear what they want to hear especially when it comes to
> the devisive nature of issues of our day which the news media magnifies
> thereby cementing beliefs. So bringing the conversation back around to open
> space, as I said in one of my posts, the number 1 goal, in the invitation,
> should be to exercise and practice leadership loyalty as OST Facilitators.
> What do the leaders want to hear? What issues And opportunities are the
> real leaders truly open to? Leadership loyalty says never go out of
> bounds is with your thoughts opinion or agenda. For if you or your
> participants fail to do so, they will be ridiculed in retaliation, and
> rejected. The master of Democracy, Alexis Tocqueville Understood this very
> well in his writings over 100 years ago. There is a very fine line that
> must be walked upon. A delicate balance that that will destroy people's
> lives if they speak up too soon and are too honest regarding their heart
> felt beliefs. The beliefs I shared - which again were not even my beliefs
> or thoughts - caused people to be so outraged they wanted to silence me and
> kick me out of this club. That is normal now. That is the lesson to be
> learned. That is the lesson that our so called leaders demonstrate everyday
> as they run their well orchestrated smear campaigns against people who do
> not share their same ideas and power trips. So who knows what the truth
> is. It turns out the truth doesn't matter much anymore, does it? The only
> thing that matters is being told what we want to hear (or telling leaders
> what they want to hear) that satisfies the self fulfilling prophecy of
> beliefs. Open space technology has the power to uncover hidden agendas. In
> this way people must be very careful because something bigger is at stake
> than just the best meeting method ever invented. their own future and the
> future of their loved ones is at stake.
>
> Mr. Tocqueville said it best, regarding contrary free speech. This is a
> wise lesson for all OST Facilitators to understand before sending open,
> honest, and well intentioned participants into the Tiger's Den to speak
> their truth.
>
> Your fellow-creatures will shun you like an impure being, and those who
> are most persuaded of your innocence will abandon you too, lest they
> should be shunned in their own turn. - Alexis Tocqueville
>
> Wishing Peace to all YOU Peacemakers and much Love to our beloved Harrison
> H. Owen and your Vision Big Guy to build back better this World we find
> ourselves in.
>
> Now, how about that weather?
>
> MC
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 23, 2022, 4:30 AM <oslist-request at lists.openspacetech.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Send OSList mailing list submissions to
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>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Who is BS-ing Whom? Reply to Lucas Cioffi (Mark Carmel)
>> 2. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? Reply to Lucas Cioffi (Michael Herman)
>> 3. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? Reply to Lucas Cioffi (Amanda Bucklow)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 20:27:49 -0700
>> From: Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com>
>> To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
>> <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> Subject: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom? Reply to Lucas Cioffi
>> Message-ID:
>> <CAFDvDFg3YKiN-=cwpsXwNLqmUaRTAp9Amv0m=
>> 6EoCXxaOrkq6A at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Lucas, do you see yourself in this quote? Are you being a hater? Too?
>> ... The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will hate
>> those
>> who speak it...--George Orwell ...
>>
>> To answer your question, can I commit to no name calling? You accused me
>> of: derogatory name calling. I guess it depends on what the definition
>> of
>> derogatory is. Right? I ask you, If something is TRUE is it derogatory? I
>> simply made a post - super respectfully - sharing an opposing viewpoint
>> from someone else and ended up being hated on, (using the term of modern
>> slang... https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hater ) and was
>> told to hush up and get lost, called a bully, called a lot of names...
>> like
>> now, being called derogatory, by you Lucas. So if someone is hating on me
>> - for sharing a thought, from others - (on this list - that is what? the
>> most open forum in the world?) and I call them a hater, who is being
>> derogatory, me or them? So to answer your question in this context: Hell
>> NO!
>>
>> Lucas, are you the Leader of this list? Now that I said no what are you
>> going to do, kick me out of the club? This is why I said honestly I will
>> think twice about posting opposing views here again, to keep haters (like
>> you) off my back.
>>
>> Cheers! And nice work on your software. Perhaps a new tool could be
>> incorporated called the law of two eyes: if you don't like what you see,
>> look the other way - rather than react in a derogatory way - Stay Away
>> from
>> the Tocqueville Trap today...
>>
>> Seriously,
>> All the Best!
>>
>> MC
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 22, 2022, 2:58 PM <oslist-request at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Send OSList mailing list submissions to
>> > oslist at lists.openspacetech.org
>> >
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>> >
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>> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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>> > oslist-owner at lists.openspacetech.org
>> >
>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> > than "Re: Contents of OSList digest..."
>> >
>> >
>> > Today's Topics:
>> >
>> > 1. Who is BS-ing Whom? (Mark Carmel)
>> > 2. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (paul levy)
>> > 3. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (Marc C. Trudeau)
>> > 4. Re: Who is BS-ing Whom? (koos at auryn.nl)
>> > 5. Who is BS-ing Whom? Reply to Amanda Bucklow and Michael
>> > Pannwitz (Mark Carmel)
>> > 6. Mark, can you commit to not calling anyone a disparaging name
>> > again? (Lucas Cioffi)
>> >
>> >
>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 1
>> > Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 15:42:40 -0700
>> > From: Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com>
>> > To: Rosa Zubizarreta <rosa at diapraxis.com>
>> > Cc: World wide Open Space Technology email list
>> > <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>, Koos de Heer <koos at auryn.nl>
>> > Subject: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
>> > Message-ID:
>> > <CAFDvDFgynt2bD725CLcN1B=6NXnZdQA=Fj5bGk=
>> > jCJU4+j0NgA at mail.gmail.com>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> >
>> > Rosa Zubizarreta, thank YOU so very much for this truly awe inspiring,
>> > interesting and intellectually important reference to needle points!
>> >
>> > I took special notice of the line:
>> > ... an infected person may at first show only the mildest and
>> nonspecific
>> > symptoms, such as a cough or sniffle, before they become deathly ill...
>> >
>> > It is SO TRUE, that ALL colds start with a sniffle, cough, or start of a
>> > sore throat. That is our body and mind's way of telling us it's time to
>> > start the fight against the bug bringing on these basic symptoms. But oh
>> > no, that's not what our medical geniuses tell us... it is all right
>> there
>> > in black and white for anyone who gets covid, you get the same piece of
>> > paper from all of group thinkers from CDC, WHO, NIH, Etc on down to
>> local
>> > docs, who say: ...if you get covid DO NOTHING! Except run and hide from
>> > your pets, family and friends... And you are also advised to spray
>> chemical
>> > cleaners (that you are then breathing in the whole time) on everything
>> you
>> > touch, each time you touch it, every day while in solitary confinement.
>> > Then, say our health gurus, when you cant breath, and only then, you
>> should
>> > do something...go to the hospital, call an ambulance. Others who do
>> nothing
>> > and wait until they cant breathe literally call the undertaker as they
>> > pull out a pistol and shoot themselves. Suicide skyrocketing now during
>> > this disease. My solution is simple and better and it works... The
>> moment
>> > you feel a runny nose or sore throat, cough, etc., gargle with hot salt
>> > water and rinse your nose with a saline rinse...bye bye bugs...!
>> >
>> > I also take note of another great point in your Needle Points reference,
>> > Rosa, and thank you most gratefully for this one also... not because it
>> > proves my point on leadership loyalty and retaliation for failure to do
>> so,
>> > but because it is a profound truth that all OST facilitators should
>> > understand before sending participants into the new lion's den known as
>> > open and honest input, giving people the liberty to express one's
>> opinion.
>> > Here is that great point:
>> >
>> > ...One person who understood how this works intuitively was Alexis de
>> > Tocqueville. In democracies, as long as there is not yet a majority
>> > opinion, a range of views can be expressed, and it appears there is a
>> great
>> > ?liberty of opinion,? to use his phrase. But once a majority opinion
>> forms,
>> > it acquires a sudden social power, and it brings with it pressure to end
>> > dissent. A powerful new kind of censorship and coercion begins in
>> everyday
>> > life (at work, school, choir, church, hospitals, in all institutions) as
>> > the majority turns on the minority, demanding it comply. Tocqueville,
>> like
>> > James Madison, was concerned about this ?the tyranny of the majority,?
>> > which he saw as the Achilles? heel of democracy. It isn?t only because
>> > divisiveness created a minority faction steeped in lingering resentment;
>> > it?s also because minorities can sometimes be more right than majorities
>> > (indeed, emerging ideas are, by definition, minority ideas to start
>> with).
>> > The majority overtaking the minority could mean stamping out thoughts
>> and
>> > actions that would otherwise generate progress and forward movement...
>> >
>> > ...It is a fascinating moment when this sort of crystallization happens
>> in
>> > a mass culture like America?s, because seemingly overnight even the
>> > definition of legitimate speech (or thought or action) also changes.
>> > Tocqueville observed that quite abruptly a person can no longer express
>> > opinions or raise questions that only days before were acceptable, even
>> > though no facts of the matter have changed. At an individual level,
>> people
>> > who were within the bounds can be surprised to find themselves
>> ...tormented
>> > by the slights and persecutions of daily obloquy... Once this occurs, he
>> > wrote, ...your fellow-creatures will shun you like an impure being, and
>> > those who are most persuaded of your innocence will abandon you too,
>> lest
>> > they should be shunned in their turn...
>> >
>> > In the midst of a pandemic, seeing the unvaccinated as ?impure? is no
>> > surprise, because of course they could carry contagion. But as
>> Tocqueville
>> > pointed out, this *also* occurs when there is no contagion, and we
>> begin to
>> > experience those who are on the wrong side as ?impure??as in failing the
>> > purity test?and react to them as though they are dangerous. That we do
>> this
>> > even when there is no pandemic suggests that there is, along with
>> realistic
>> > fear of infection, something else going on here?a sense that those with
>> > whom we may disagree are impurities in the body politic, bad people who
>> > need to be taught a lesson, even punished.
>> > A final poignant point to me in your piece Rosa was this gem talking
>> about
>> > what we do! Facilitating THE participatory proceess of OST. Here in
>> > context of public health.
>> >
>> > June 2021 Gallup
>> > <
>> >
>> https://news.gallup.com/poll/350720/covid-vaccine-reluctant-likely-stay.aspx
>> > >
>> > poll
>> > found that, among the vaccinated, 53% now worry most about those
>> choosing
>> > not to get vaccinated, ?surpassing concerns about lack of social
>> distancing
>> > in their area (27%), availability of local hospital resources and
>> supplies
>> > (11%), and availability of coronavirus tests in their area (5%).? True
>> to
>> > the BIS?s impulses, this fear is metastasizing into disgust, even
>> hatred,
>> > of those who?because they believe or act differently?are now perceived
>> as
>> > threats: On Aug. 26, in a front-page story in the *Toronto Star*, my
>> local
>> > newspaper, a resident was quoted as saying: ...I have no empathy left
>> for
>> > the willfully unvaccinated. Let them die...
>> >
>> > In the midst of such a death wish for fellow human beings, even the
>> person
>> > quoted understood that an important mental capacity has been lost:
>> empathy,
>> > or the ability to model other people?s minds. When we lose that en
>> masse,
>> > the results can be tragic, not least because getting through this must
>> be a
>> > group effort.
>> >
>> > As I understand it, there are two main approaches to public health in
>> > liberal democracies, and both have been tried historically in different
>> > places. One begins voluntarily, out of respect for civil liberties, but
>> > switches to coercion when some voluntary ceiling, deemed insufficient,
>> is
>> > reached. Ideally, this intervention is based on the principle of
>> > least-necessary coercion. The benefit to this is that it may work to get
>> > more people vaccinated in shorter order. But it also conveys that the
>> > government does not trust its citizens to make good decisions on their
>> own,
>> > a condescension that in turn?this is human nature 101?eventually
>> generates
>> > resentment, even revolt, and the disengagement of significant segments
>> of
>> > the population. The other approach, participatory public health, sees
>> the
>> > need for coercion as a sign that something in the public health outreach
>> > itself has failed; if a ceiling is reached, society?s leaders should not
>> > simply resort to force but rather confront the flaws in their own
>> > leadership?that they should double-down on their responsibility to
>> generate
>> > trust in the public. The goal of participatory public health is not to
>> > crush, but to better engage.
>> >
>> > In that spirit, what follows is an attempt by a physician and
>> neuroscience
>> > writer and someone who got vaccinated, early and voluntarily, to
>> understand
>> > those who have not made this choice. This essay is not about
>> COVID-deniers
>> > or anti-vaxxers, who oppose vaccines on ideological grounds. Nor is it
>> > about the activists or political figures who feed off and benefit from
>> the
>> > corrosive discourse around vaccines. It is instead about the vaccine
>> > hesitant?those who are concerned and anxious about COVID but *also*
>> anxious
>> > about these new vaccines. These are the people who are not yet
>> vaccinated
>> > for reasons that the majority may not understand?and which are often
>> more
>> > anchored in history and experience than the majority would suspect. They
>> > are the Tocquevillian minority that the majority is threatening with job
>> > loss and other restrictions.
>> >
>> > One needn?t agree with the decisions or actions of the vaccine hesitant
>> in
>> > order to learn something from them and about them, and about society as
>> a
>> > whole. They pay attention to, and are vigilant about, different issues
>> than
>> > the vaccinated, and have strong feelings about the people and
>> institutions
>> > involved in our public health?particularly politicians, the drug
>> regulatory
>> > process, and pharmaceutical companies. For many, vaccine hesitancy is
>> not
>> > simply about the vaccines; it?s about the absence of faith in the wider
>> > systems that brought us the vaccines. ?Public health moves at the speed
>> of
>> > trust,? notes physician and author Rishi Manchanda. If we want our
>> public
>> > health system to function better?safer, swifter, in ways that more
>> > effectively safeguard the lives and livelihoods of all citizens?it must
>> be
>> > rooted not in coercion but in confidence, and not only among the
>> majority.
>> >
>> > Thanks again Rosa! Wishing you and all list serve members PEACE! IF
>> the
>> > world was truly open to the best ideas to do the most good for all of
>> > humanity, then Open Space Technology would be mandated and there would
>> be
>> > Statues of Harrison Owen in every town square and marketplace of Ideas
>> in
>> > the World.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 1:55 PM Rosa Zubizarreta <rosa at diapraxis.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > > Ok... I don't know Mark or his motives.
>> > > I do think this is a topic worthy of serious and considered
>> conversation.
>> > >
>> > > The best example I have seen so far,
>> > > of someone who is in favor of vaccines, attempting to understand the
>> > > viewpoint of those who are hesitant or skeptical,
>> > > is Norman Doidge's four-part series called "Needlepoints".
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/science/articles/needle-points-vaccinations-chapter-one
>> > >
>> > > I don't know the author, but I sure wish I did...
>> > > apparently he's written a number of NYT best-sellers on
>> neuroplasticity.
>> > > Very erudite person, and lovely writer.
>> > >
>> > > And very thoughtful -- and thought-provoking -- perspectives.
>> > >
>> > > all best wishes,
>> > >
>> > > Rosaa
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > * <http://diapraxis.com>*
>> > > *Rosa Zubizarreta *
>> > > *DiaPraxis: Awakening the Spirit of Creative Collaboration
>> > > <http://diapraxis.com>*
>> > > *coaching in participatory leadership *
>> > > *advanced group facilitation services & learning opportunities*
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:15 PM Koos de Heer via OSList <
>> > > oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> Dear Mark,
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> The one and only burning question I have is: why???
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> Why do you post a quote like that, saying that it is not your words
>> but
>> > >> posting it nonetheless? And when someone objects, you repeat the
>> quote
>> > >> about society and truth, implying that you do indeed support the text
>> > you
>> > >> posted. And then you write that you agree with John that this kind of
>> > >> disinformation does not belong here. If you agree with that, why do
>> you
>> > >> post it in the first place?
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> Is it just to play with us? To see who takes the bait and makes a
>> fool
>> > of
>> > >> himself? If it is, PLEASE go play somewhere else.
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> If this means I just made a fool of myself ? so be it. It feels like
>> > >> bullying and I am sick of it. I want this to be a safe place.
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> Koos
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> *Van:* OSList <oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org> *Namens *Mark
>> > >> Carmel via OSList
>> > >> *Verzonden:* donderdag 20 januari 2022 23:57
>> > >> *Aan:* John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com>
>> > >> *CC:* Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com>; World wide Open Space
>> > >> Technology email list <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> > >> *Onderwerp:* Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> I agree with you John...
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 3:38 PM John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com>
>> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> I?m sorry but I do not think this kind of massive disinformation and
>> > >> political agenda belongs on this list.
>> > >>
>> > >> Sent from John's iPhone
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> On Jan 20, 2022, at 2:35 PM, Mark Carmel via OSList <
>> > >> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> ?
>> > >>
>> > >> These are not my thoughts or my words. I Do not know the author.
>> But
>> > >> here is food for thought, or better put... here is a shot for a
>> > thought...
>> > >> that I wanted to share with YOU, the World's greatest peacemakers:
>> > >>
>> > >> Quote from author unknown: ...Among all the vaccines I have known
>> in
>> > my
>> > >> life (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, measles, rubella, chickenpox,
>> > >> hepatitis, meningitis and tuberculosis), I want to also add flu and
>> > >> pneumonia. I have never seen a vaccine that forced me to wear a mask
>> and
>> > >> maintain my social distance, even when you are fully vaccinated. I
>> had
>> > >> never heard of a vaccine that spreads the virus even after
>> vaccination.
>> > I
>> > >> had never heard of rewards, discounts, incentives to get vaccinated.
>> I
>> > >> never saw discrimination for those who didn't. If you haven't been
>> > >> vaccinated no one has tried to make you feel like a bad person. I
>> have
>> > >> never seen a vaccine that threatens the relationship between family,
>> > >> colleagues and friends. I have never seen a vaccine used to threaten
>> > >> livelihoods, work or school. I have never seen a vaccine that would
>> > allow a
>> > >> 12-year-old to override parental consent. After all the vaccines I
>> > listed
>> > >> above, I have never seen a vaccine like this one, which
>> discriminates,
>> > >> divides and judges society as it is. And as the social fabric
>> tightens?
>> > >> It's a powerful vaccine! She does all these things except
>> IMMUNIZATION.
>> > If
>> > >> we still need a booster dose after we are fully vaccinated, and we
>> still
>> > >> need to get a negative test after we are fully vaccinated, and we
>> still
>> > >> need to wear a mask after we are fully vaccinated, and still be
>> > >> hospitalized after we have been fully vaccinated, it will likely
>> come to
>> > >> ...It's time for us to admit that we've been completely deceived...
>> I
>> > >> have decided to never refer to this conglomerate of chemicals as a
>> > >> ...vaccine.. again if at all possible. It is not a legitimate
>> > vaccine, it
>> > >> is a manufactured composition of unknown substances pretending to be
>> > >> something it IS NOT. So, for me, I will only refer to it as an
>> > INJECTION,
>> > >> which is being forced upon us to subject us to TOTAL AUTHORITATIVE
>> > CONTROL
>> > >> of every aspect of our lives until every human being on this planet
>> has
>> > >> been made a subject of the ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT, ONE WORLD ECONOMY,
>> ONE
>> > >> WORLD RELIGION just as has been foretold by many Prophecies in
>> SCRIPTURE
>> > >> for untold years. This so-called virus was instituted by design by
>> > those
>> > >> whose agendum is TOTAL population CONTROL... - B.S.
>> > >>
>> > >> ...The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will hate
>> > >> those who speak it...--George Orwell
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> MC the MC
>> > >>
>> > >> _______________________________________________
>> > >> OSList mailing list
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>> > >> To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
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>> > >>
>> > >> _______________________________________________
>> > >> OSList mailing list
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>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 2
>> > Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2022 23:33:02 +0000
>> > From: paul levy <paul at cats3000.net>
>> > To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
>> > <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> > Cc: Rosa Zubizarreta <rosa at diapraxis.com>, Mark Carmel
>> > <markacarmel at gmail.com>
>> > Subject: Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
>> > Message-ID:
>> > <CAAnJsbA_UMg5NCdYzKiySO1r-xN8JXR794Xwj-wRej5AF=
>> > C3mA at mail.gmail.com>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> >
>> > I still say the vaccinating at Top Shop was a rather jolly affair.
>> >
>> > Paul
>> >
>> > On Fri, 21 Jan 2022, 22:42 Mark Carmel via OSList, <
>> > oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > > Rosa Zubizarreta, thank YOU so very much for this truly awe inspiring,
>> > > interesting and intellectually important reference to needle points!
>> > >
>> > > I took special notice of the line:
>> > > ... an infected person may at first show only the mildest and
>> nonspecific
>> > > symptoms, such as a cough or sniffle, before they become deathly
>> ill...
>> > >
>> > > It is SO TRUE, that ALL colds start with a sniffle, cough, or start
>> of a
>> > > sore throat. That is our body and mind's way of telling us it's time
>> to
>> > > start the fight against the bug bringing on these basic symptoms. But
>> oh
>> > > no, that's not what our medical geniuses tell us... it is all right
>> there
>> > > in black and white for anyone who gets covid, you get the same piece
>> of
>> > > paper from all of group thinkers from CDC, WHO, NIH, Etc on down to
>> local
>> > > docs, who say: ...if you get covid DO NOTHING! Except run and hide
>> from
>> > > your pets, family and friends... And you are also advised to spray
>> > chemical
>> > > cleaners (that you are then breathing in the whole time) on everything
>> > you
>> > > touch, each time you touch it, every day while in solitary
>> confinement.
>> > > Then, say our health gurus, when you cant breath, and only then, you
>> > should
>> > > do something...go to the hospital, call an ambulance. Others who do
>> > nothing
>> > > and wait until they cant breathe literally call the undertaker as
>> they
>> > > pull out a pistol and shoot themselves. Suicide skyrocketing now
>> during
>> > > this disease. My solution is simple and better and it works... The
>> moment
>> > > you feel a runny nose or sore throat, cough, etc., gargle with hot
>> salt
>> > > water and rinse your nose with a saline rinse...bye bye bugs...!
>> > >
>> > > I also take note of another great point in your Needle Points
>> reference,
>> > > Rosa, and thank you most gratefully for this one also... not because
>> it
>> > > proves my point on leadership loyalty and retaliation for failure to
>> do
>> > so,
>> > > but because it is a profound truth that all OST facilitators should
>> > > understand before sending participants into the new lion's den known
>> as
>> > > open and honest input, giving people the liberty to express one's
>> > opinion.
>> > > Here is that great point:
>> > >
>> > > ...One person who understood how this works intuitively was Alexis de
>> > > Tocqueville. In democracies, as long as there is not yet a majority
>> > > opinion, a range of views can be expressed, and it appears there is a
>> > great
>> > > ?liberty of opinion,? to use his phrase. But once a majority opinion
>> > forms,
>> > > it acquires a sudden social power, and it brings with it pressure to
>> end
>> > > dissent. A powerful new kind of censorship and coercion begins in
>> > everyday
>> > > life (at work, school, choir, church, hospitals, in all institutions)
>> as
>> > > the majority turns on the minority, demanding it comply. Tocqueville,
>> > like
>> > > James Madison, was concerned about this ?the tyranny of the majority,?
>> > > which he saw as the Achilles? heel of democracy. It isn?t only because
>> > > divisiveness created a minority faction steeped in lingering
>> resentment;
>> > > it?s also because minorities can sometimes be more right than
>> majorities
>> > > (indeed, emerging ideas are, by definition, minority ideas to start
>> > with).
>> > > The majority overtaking the minority could mean stamping out thoughts
>> and
>> > > actions that would otherwise generate progress and forward movement...
>> > >
>> > > ...It is a fascinating moment when this sort of crystallization
>> happens
>> > in
>> > > a mass culture like America?s, because seemingly overnight even the
>> > > definition of legitimate speech (or thought or action) also changes.
>> > > Tocqueville observed that quite abruptly a person can no longer
>> express
>> > > opinions or raise questions that only days before were acceptable,
>> even
>> > > though no facts of the matter have changed. At an individual level,
>> > people
>> > > who were within the bounds can be surprised to find themselves
>> > ...tormented
>> > > by the slights and persecutions of daily obloquy... Once this occurs,
>> he
>> > > wrote, ...your fellow-creatures will shun you like an impure being,
>> and
>> > > those who are most persuaded of your innocence will abandon you too,
>> lest
>> > > they should be shunned in their turn...
>> > >
>> > > In the midst of a pandemic, seeing the unvaccinated as ?impure? is no
>> > > surprise, because of course they could carry contagion. But as
>> > Tocqueville
>> > > pointed out, this *also* occurs when there is no contagion, and we
>> begin
>> > > to experience those who are on the wrong side as ?impure??as in
>> failing
>> > the
>> > > purity test?and react to them as though they are dangerous. That we do
>> > this
>> > > even when there is no pandemic suggests that there is, along with
>> > realistic
>> > > fear of infection, something else going on here?a sense that those
>> with
>> > > whom we may disagree are impurities in the body politic, bad people
>> who
>> > > need to be taught a lesson, even punished.
>> > > A final poignant point to me in your piece Rosa was this gem talking
>> > about
>> > > what we do! Facilitating THE participatory proceess of OST. Here in
>> > > context of public health.
>> > >
>> > > June 2021 Gallup
>> > > <
>> >
>> https://news.gallup.com/poll/350720/covid-vaccine-reluctant-likely-stay.aspx
>> >
>> > poll
>> > > found that, among the vaccinated, 53% now worry most about those
>> choosing
>> > > not to get vaccinated, ?surpassing concerns about lack of social
>> > distancing
>> > > in their area (27%), availability of local hospital resources and
>> > supplies
>> > > (11%), and availability of coronavirus tests in their area (5%).?
>> True to
>> > > the BIS?s impulses, this fear is metastasizing into disgust, even
>> hatred,
>> > > of those who?because they believe or act differently?are now
>> perceived as
>> > > threats: On Aug. 26, in a front-page story in the *Toronto Star*, my
>> > > local newspaper, a resident was quoted as saying: ...I have no empathy
>> > left
>> > > for the willfully unvaccinated. Let them die...
>> > >
>> > > In the midst of such a death wish for fellow human beings, even the
>> > person
>> > > quoted understood that an important mental capacity has been lost:
>> > empathy,
>> > > or the ability to model other people?s minds. When we lose that en
>> masse,
>> > > the results can be tragic, not least because getting through this must
>> > be a
>> > > group effort.
>> > >
>> > > As I understand it, there are two main approaches to public health in
>> > > liberal democracies, and both have been tried historically in
>> different
>> > > places. One begins voluntarily, out of respect for civil liberties,
>> but
>> > > switches to coercion when some voluntary ceiling, deemed
>> insufficient, is
>> > > reached. Ideally, this intervention is based on the principle of
>> > > least-necessary coercion. The benefit to this is that it may work to
>> get
>> > > more people vaccinated in shorter order. But it also conveys that the
>> > > government does not trust its citizens to make good decisions on their
>> > own,
>> > > a condescension that in turn?this is human nature 101?eventually
>> > generates
>> > > resentment, even revolt, and the disengagement of significant
>> segments of
>> > > the population. The other approach, participatory public health, sees
>> the
>> > > need for coercion as a sign that something in the public health
>> outreach
>> > > itself has failed; if a ceiling is reached, society?s leaders should
>> not
>> > > simply resort to force but rather confront the flaws in their own
>> > > leadership?that they should double-down on their responsibility to
>> > generate
>> > > trust in the public. The goal of participatory public health is not to
>> > > crush, but to better engage.
>> > >
>> > > In that spirit, what follows is an attempt by a physician and
>> > neuroscience
>> > > writer and someone who got vaccinated, early and voluntarily, to
>> > understand
>> > > those who have not made this choice. This essay is not about
>> > COVID-deniers
>> > > or anti-vaxxers, who oppose vaccines on ideological grounds. Nor is it
>> > > about the activists or political figures who feed off and benefit from
>> > the
>> > > corrosive discourse around vaccines. It is instead about the vaccine
>> > > hesitant?those who are concerned and anxious about COVID but *also*
>> > anxious
>> > > about these new vaccines. These are the people who are not yet
>> vaccinated
>> > > for reasons that the majority may not understand?and which are often
>> more
>> > > anchored in history and experience than the majority would suspect.
>> They
>> > > are the Tocquevillian minority that the majority is threatening with
>> job
>> > > loss and other restrictions.
>> > >
>> > > One needn?t agree with the decisions or actions of the vaccine
>> hesitant
>> > in
>> > > order to learn something from them and about them, and about society
>> as a
>> > > whole. They pay attention to, and are vigilant about, different issues
>> > than
>> > > the vaccinated, and have strong feelings about the people and
>> > institutions
>> > > involved in our public health?particularly politicians, the drug
>> > regulatory
>> > > process, and pharmaceutical companies. For many, vaccine hesitancy is
>> not
>> > > simply about the vaccines; it?s about the absence of faith in the
>> wider
>> > > systems that brought us the vaccines. ?Public health moves at the
>> speed
>> > of
>> > > trust,? notes physician and author Rishi Manchanda. If we want our
>> public
>> > > health system to function better?safer, swifter, in ways that more
>> > > effectively safeguard the lives and livelihoods of all citizens?it
>> must
>> > be
>> > > rooted not in coercion but in confidence, and not only among the
>> > majority.
>> > >
>> > > Thanks again Rosa! Wishing you and all list serve members PEACE! IF
>> the
>> > > world was truly open to the best ideas to do the most good for all of
>> > > humanity, then Open Space Technology would be mandated and there
>> would be
>> > > Statues of Harrison Owen in every town square and marketplace of
>> Ideas in
>> > > the World.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 1:55 PM Rosa Zubizarreta <rosa at diapraxis.com>
>> > wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> Ok... I don't know Mark or his motives.
>> > >> I do think this is a topic worthy of serious and considered
>> > conversation.
>> > >>
>> > >> The best example I have seen so far,
>> > >> of someone who is in favor of vaccines, attempting to understand the
>> > >> viewpoint of those who are hesitant or skeptical,
>> > >> is Norman Doidge's four-part series called "Needlepoints".
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> >
>> https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/science/articles/needle-points-vaccinations-chapter-one
>> > >>
>> > >> I don't know the author, but I sure wish I did...
>> > >> apparently he's written a number of NYT best-sellers on
>> neuroplasticity.
>> > >> Very erudite person, and lovely writer.
>> > >>
>> > >> And very thoughtful -- and thought-provoking -- perspectives.
>> > >>
>> > >> all best wishes,
>> > >>
>> > >> Rosaa
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> * <http://diapraxis.com>*
>> > >> *Rosa Zubizarreta *
>> > >> *DiaPraxis: Awakening the Spirit of Creative Collaboration
>> > >> <http://diapraxis.com>*
>> > >> *coaching in participatory leadership *
>> > >> *advanced group facilitation services & learning opportunities*
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:15 PM Koos de Heer via OSList <
>> > >> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >>> Dear Mark,
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> The one and only burning question I have is: why???
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Why do you post a quote like that, saying that it is not your words
>> but
>> > >>> posting it nonetheless? And when someone objects, you repeat the
>> quote
>> > >>> about society and truth, implying that you do indeed support the
>> text
>> > you
>> > >>> posted. And then you write that you agree with John that this kind
>> of
>> > >>> disinformation does not belong here. If you agree with that, why do
>> you
>> > >>> post it in the first place?
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Is it just to play with us? To see who takes the bait and makes a
>> fool
>> > >>> of himself? If it is, PLEASE go play somewhere else.
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> If this means I just made a fool of myself ? so be it. It feels like
>> > >>> bullying and I am sick of it. I want this to be a safe place.
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Koos
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> *Van:* OSList <oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org> *Namens
>> *Mark
>> > >>> Carmel via OSList
>> > >>> *Verzonden:* donderdag 20 januari 2022 23:57
>> > >>> *Aan:* John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com>
>> > >>> *CC:* Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com>; World wide Open Space
>> > >>> Technology email list <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> > >>> *Onderwerp:* Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> I agree with you John...
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 3:38 PM John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com>
>> wrote:
>> > >>>
>> > >>> I?m sorry but I do not think this kind of massive disinformation and
>> > >>> political agenda belongs on this list.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Sent from John's iPhone
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> On Jan 20, 2022, at 2:35 PM, Mark Carmel via OSList <
>> > >>> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>> > >>>
>> > >>> ?
>> > >>>
>> > >>> These are not my thoughts or my words. I Do not know the author.
>> But
>> > >>> here is food for thought, or better put... here is a shot for a
>> > thought...
>> > >>> that I wanted to share with YOU, the World's greatest peacemakers:
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Quote from author unknown: ...Among all the vaccines I have known
>> in
>> > >>> my life (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, measles, rubella,
>> chickenpox,
>> > >>> hepatitis, meningitis and tuberculosis), I want to also add flu and
>> > >>> pneumonia. I have never seen a vaccine that forced me to wear a mask
>> > and
>> > >>> maintain my social distance, even when you are fully vaccinated. I
>> had
>> > >>> never heard of a vaccine that spreads the virus even after
>> > vaccination. I
>> > >>> had never heard of rewards, discounts, incentives to get
>> vaccinated. I
>> > >>> never saw discrimination for those who didn't. If you haven't been
>> > >>> vaccinated no one has tried to make you feel like a bad person. I
>> have
>> > >>> never seen a vaccine that threatens the relationship between family,
>> > >>> colleagues and friends. I have never seen a vaccine used to threaten
>> > >>> livelihoods, work or school. I have never seen a vaccine that would
>> > allow a
>> > >>> 12-year-old to override parental consent. After all the vaccines I
>> > listed
>> > >>> above, I have never seen a vaccine like this one, which
>> discriminates,
>> > >>> divides and judges society as it is. And as the social fabric
>> tightens?
>> > >>> It's a powerful vaccine! She does all these things except
>> > IMMUNIZATION. If
>> > >>> we still need a booster dose after we are fully vaccinated, and we
>> > still
>> > >>> need to get a negative test after we are fully vaccinated, and we
>> still
>> > >>> need to wear a mask after we are fully vaccinated, and still be
>> > >>> hospitalized after we have been fully vaccinated, it will likely
>> come
>> > to
>> > >>> ...It's time for us to admit that we've been completely
>> deceived... I
>> > >>> have decided to never refer to this conglomerate of chemicals as a
>> > >>> ...vaccine.. again if at all possible. It is not a legitimate
>> > vaccine, it
>> > >>> is a manufactured composition of unknown substances pretending to be
>> > >>> something it IS NOT. So, for me, I will only refer to it as an
>> > INJECTION,
>> > >>> which is being forced upon us to subject us to TOTAL AUTHORITATIVE
>> > CONTROL
>> > >>> of every aspect of our lives until every human being on this planet
>> has
>> > >>> been made a subject of the ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT, ONE WORLD ECONOMY,
>> ONE
>> > >>> WORLD RELIGION just as has been foretold by many Prophecies in
>> > SCRIPTURE
>> > >>> for untold years. This so-called virus was instituted by design by
>> > those
>> > >>> whose agendum is TOTAL population CONTROL... - B.S.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> ...The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will hate
>> > >>> those who speak it...--George Orwell
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> MC the MC
>> > >>>
>> > >>> _______________________________________________
>> > >>> OSList mailing list
>> > >>> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > >>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>> OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > >>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
>> > >>>
>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>> > >>> Past archives can be viewed here:
>> > >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>> > >>>
>> > >>> _______________________________________________
>> > >>> OSList mailing list
>> > >>> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > >>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>> OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > >>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
>> > >>>
>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>> > >>> Past archives can be viewed here:
>> > >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>> > >>
>> > >> _______________________________________________
>> > > OSList mailing list
>> > > To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > > To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
>> > > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>> > > Past archives can be viewed here:
>> > > http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
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>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 3
>> > Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 15:37:25 +0000
>> > From: "Marc C. Trudeau" <marctrudeau at alum.wpi.edu>
>> > To: "OSList (email to post)" <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> > Subject: Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
>> > Message-ID: <E1F7AA9E-56F9-494E-B7FA-D70AF7255CC5 at alum.wpi.edu>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> >
>> > I observe that this topic is incredibly triggering for all of us,
>> > everyone, me included. (It?s not news to this group that the structures
>> and
>> > institutions that served us in the industrial age are not coping well
>> with
>> > the complexities of today.) I?m drawn to ask myself, what?s the
>> > common/universal thread? Is it that this pandemic (and possible climate
>> > collapse, on its heels) have every one of us feeling completely
>> powerless
>> > for the first time in recent memory? The last huge pandemic was ~1920.
>> > Elders who remember the global conflagration that was WWII are nearly
>> all
>> > gone.
>> >
>> > Who are the most experienced/expert in living in powerlessness? What can
>> > we learn from them?
>> >
>> > Peace and love,
>> >
>> > Marc
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Marc Trudeau
>> > mobile 774-641-8302
>> >
>> > LikeBreathin.com<http://LikeBreathin.com>
>> >
>> > [cid:2EB09BBC-1735-4700-ACEC-73F6D1DDD1F7]
>> >
>> > Effective teamwork and team leadership feel nearly effortless, Like
>> > Breathin??. Partner with us to experience how.
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>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 4
>> > Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 21:18:29 +0100
>> > From: <koos at auryn.nl>
>> > To: "'Mark Carmel'" <markacarmel at gmail.com>, "'Rosa Zubizarreta'"
>> > <rosa at diapraxis.com>
>> > Cc: "'World wide Open Space Technology email list'"
>> > <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> > Subject: Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
>> > Message-ID: <02e801d80fcd$389634f0$a9c29ed0$@auryn.nl>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> >
>> > There is one point you seem to miss, Mark. The fact that the author
>> > understands and explains a phenomenon, does not mean he supports it. The
>> > fact that the authorities are clumsy in their ways of coercion, does not
>> > mean that the behavior they are trying to promote is wrong. The author
>> is
>> > not against vaccination, on the contrary. The whole point of the piece
>> is
>> > about short-sighted change management and has very little to do with
>> Covid,
>> > which is just an example in a much bigger picture he is painting. The
>> way
>> > you are twisting this into an anti-vax argument is creative, but wrong.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Van: Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com>
>> > Verzonden: vrijdag 21 januari 2022 23:43
>> > Aan: Rosa Zubizarreta <rosa at diapraxis.com>
>> > CC: World wide Open Space Technology email list <
>> > oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>; Koos de Heer <koos at auryn.nl>
>> > Onderwerp: Who is BS-ing Whom?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Rosa Zubizarreta, thank YOU so very much for this truly awe inspiring,
>> > interesting and intellectually important reference to needle points!
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I took special notice of the line:
>> >
>> > ... an infected person may at first show only the mildest and
>> nonspecific
>> > symptoms, such as a cough or sniffle, before they become deathly ill...
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > It is SO TRUE, that ALL colds start with a sniffle, cough, or start of a
>> > sore throat. That is our body and mind's way of telling us it's time to
>> > start the fight against the bug bringing on these basic symptoms. But oh
>> > no, that's not what our medical geniuses tell us... it is all right
>> there
>> > in black and white for anyone who gets covid, you get the same piece of
>> > paper from all of group thinkers from CDC, WHO, NIH, Etc on down to
>> local
>> > docs, who say: ...if you get covid DO NOTHING! Except run and hide from
>> > your pets, family and friends... And you are also advised to spray
>> chemical
>> > cleaners (that you are then breathing in the whole time) on everything
>> you
>> > touch, each time you touch it, every day while in solitary confinement.
>> > Then, say our health gurus, when you cant breath, and only then, you
>> should
>> > do something...go to the hospital, call an ambulance. Others who do
>> nothing
>> > and wait until they cant breathe literally call the undertaker as they
>> > pull out a pistol and shoot themselves.
>> > Suicide skyrocketing now during this disease. My solution is simple
>> and
>> > better and it works... The moment you feel a runny nose or sore throat,
>> > cough, etc., gargle with hot salt water and rinse your nose with a
>> saline
>> > rinse...bye bye bugs...!
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I also take note of another great point in your Needle Points reference,
>> > Rosa, and thank you most gratefully for this one also... not because it
>> > proves my point on leadership loyalty and retaliation for failure to do
>> so,
>> > but because it is a profound truth that all OST facilitators should
>> > understand before sending participants into the new lion's den known as
>> > open and honest input, giving people the liberty to express one's
>> opinion.
>> > Here is that great point:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ...One person who understood how this works intuitively was Alexis de
>> > Tocqueville. In democracies, as long as there is not yet a majority
>> > opinion, a range of views can be expressed, and it appears there is a
>> great
>> > ?liberty of opinion,? to use his phrase. But once a majority opinion
>> forms,
>> > it acquires a sudden social power, and it brings with it pressure to end
>> > dissent. A powerful new kind of censorship and coercion begins in
>> everyday
>> > life (at work, school, choir, church, hospitals, in all institutions) as
>> > the majority turns on the minority, demanding it comply. Tocqueville,
>> like
>> > James Madison, was concerned about this ?the tyranny of the majority,?
>> > which he saw as the Achilles? heel of democracy. It isn?t only because
>> > divisiveness created a minority faction steeped in lingering resentment;
>> > it?s also because minorities can sometimes be more right than majorities
>> > (indeed, emerging ideas are, by definition, minority ideas to start
>> with).
>> > The majority overtaking the minority could mean s
>> > tamping out thoughts and actions that would otherwise generate progress
>> > and forward movement...
>> >
>> > ...It is a fascinating moment when this sort of crystallization happens
>> in
>> > a mass culture like America?s, because seemingly overnight even the
>> > definition of legitimate speech (or thought or action) also changes.
>> > Tocqueville observed that quite abruptly a person can no longer express
>> > opinions or raise questions that only days before were acceptable, even
>> > though no facts of the matter have changed. At an individual level,
>> people
>> > who were within the bounds can be surprised to find themselves
>> ...tormented
>> > by the slights and persecutions of daily obloquy... Once this occurs, he
>> > wrote, ...your fellow-creatures will shun you like an impure being, and
>> > those who are most persuaded of your innocence will abandon you too,
>> lest
>> > they should be shunned in their turn...
>> >
>> > In the midst of a pandemic, seeing the unvaccinated as ?impure? is no
>> > surprise, because of course they could carry contagion. But as
>> Tocqueville
>> > pointed out, this also occurs when there is no contagion, and we begin
>> to
>> > experience those who are on the wrong side as ?impure??as in failing the
>> > purity test?and react to them as though they are dangerous. That we do
>> this
>> > even when there is no pandemic suggests that there is, along with
>> realistic
>> > fear of infection, something else going on here?a sense that those with
>> > whom we may disagree are impurities in the body politic, bad people who
>> > need to be taught a lesson, even punished.
>> >
>> > A final poignant point to me in your piece Rosa was this gem talking
>> about
>> > what we do! Facilitating THE participatory proceess of OST. Here in
>> > context of public health.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > June 2021 <
>> >
>> https://news.gallup.com/poll/350720/covid-vaccine-reluctant-likely-stay.aspx
>> >
>> > Gallup poll found that, among the vaccinated, 53% now worry most about
>> > those choosing not to get vaccinated, ?surpassing concerns about lack of
>> > social distancing in their area (27%), availability of local hospital
>> > resources and supplies (11%), and availability of coronavirus tests in
>> > their area (5%).? True to the BIS?s impulses, this fear is metastasizing
>> > into disgust, even hatred, of those who?because they believe or act
>> > differently?are now perceived as threats: On Aug. 26, in a front-page
>> story
>> > in the Toronto Star, my local newspaper, a resident was quoted as
>> saying:
>> > ...I have no empathy left for the willfully unvaccinated. Let them
>> die...
>> >
>> > In the midst of such a death wish for fellow human beings, even the
>> person
>> > quoted understood that an important mental capacity has been lost:
>> empathy,
>> > or the ability to model other people?s minds. When we lose that en
>> masse,
>> > the results can be tragic, not least because getting through this must
>> be a
>> > group effort.
>> >
>> > As I understand it, there are two main approaches to public health in
>> > liberal democracies, and both have been tried historically in different
>> > places. One begins voluntarily, out of respect for civil liberties, but
>> > switches to coercion when some voluntary ceiling, deemed insufficient,
>> is
>> > reached. Ideally, this intervention is based on the principle of
>> > least-necessary coercion. The benefit to this is that it may work to get
>> > more people vaccinated in shorter order. But it also conveys that the
>> > government does not trust its citizens to make good decisions on their
>> own,
>> > a condescension that in turn?this is human nature 101?eventually
>> generates
>> > resentment, even revolt, and the disengagement of significant segments
>> of
>> > the population. The other approach, participatory public health, sees
>> the
>> > need for coercion as a sign that something in the public health outreach
>> > itself has failed; if a ceiling is reached, society?s leaders should not
>> > simply resort to force but rather confront the flaws in t
>> > heir own leadership?that they should double-down on their
>> responsibility
>> > to generate trust in the public. The goal of participatory public
>> health is
>> > not to crush, but to better engage.
>> >
>> > In that spirit, what follows is an attempt by a physician and
>> neuroscience
>> > writer and someone who got vaccinated, early and voluntarily, to
>> understand
>> > those who have not made this choice. This essay is not about
>> COVID-deniers
>> > or anti-vaxxers, who oppose vaccines on ideological grounds. Nor is it
>> > about the activists or political figures who feed off and benefit from
>> the
>> > corrosive discourse around vaccines. It is instead about the vaccine
>> > hesitant?those who are concerned and anxious about COVID but also
>> anxious
>> > about these new vaccines. These are the people who are not yet
>> vaccinated
>> > for reasons that the majority may not understand?and which are often
>> more
>> > anchored in history and experience than the majority would suspect. They
>> > are the Tocquevillian minority that the majority is threatening with job
>> > loss and other restrictions.
>> >
>> > One needn?t agree with the decisions or actions of the vaccine hesitant
>> in
>> > order to learn something from them and about them, and about society as
>> a
>> > whole. They pay attention to, and are vigilant about, different issues
>> than
>> > the vaccinated, and have strong feelings about the people and
>> institutions
>> > involved in our public health?particularly politicians, the drug
>> regulatory
>> > process, and pharmaceutical companies. For many, vaccine hesitancy is
>> not
>> > simply about the vaccines; it?s about the absence of faith in the wider
>> > systems that brought us the vaccines. ?Public health moves at the speed
>> of
>> > trust,? notes physician and author Rishi Manchanda. If we want our
>> public
>> > health system to function better?safer, swifter, in ways that more
>> > effectively safeguard the lives and livelihoods of all citizens?it must
>> be
>> > rooted not in coercion but in confidence, and not only among the
>> majority.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Thanks again Rosa! Wishing you and all list serve members PEACE! IF
>> the
>> > world was truly open to the best ideas to do the most good for all of
>> > humanity, then Open Space Technology would be mandated and there would
>> be
>> > Statues of Harrison Owen in every town square and marketplace of Ideas
>> in
>> > the World.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 1:55 PM Rosa Zubizarreta <rosa at diapraxis.com
>> > <mailto:rosa at diapraxis.com> > wrote:
>> >
>> > Ok... I don't know Mark or his motives.
>> >
>> > I do think this is a topic worthy of serious and considered
>> conversation.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > The best example I have seen so far,
>> >
>> > of someone who is in favor of vaccines, attempting to understand the
>> > viewpoint of those who are hesitant or skeptical,
>> >
>> > is Norman Doidge's four-part series called "Needlepoints".
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/science/articles/needle-points-vaccinations-chapter-one
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I don't know the author, but I sure wish I did...
>> >
>> > apparently he's written a number of NYT best-sellers on neuroplasticity.
>> >
>> > Very erudite person, and lovely writer.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > And very thoughtful -- and thought-provoking -- perspectives.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > all best wishes,
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Rosaa
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Rosa Zubizarreta
>> >
>> > <http://diapraxis.com> DiaPraxis: Awakening the Spirit of Creative
>> > Collaboration
>> > coaching in participatory leadership
>> > advanced group facilitation services & learning opportunities
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:15 PM Koos de Heer via OSList <
>> > oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> >
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > Dear Mark,
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > The one and only burning question I have is: why???
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Why do you post a quote like that, saying that it is not your words but
>> > posting it nonetheless? And when someone objects, you repeat the quote
>> > about society and truth, implying that you do indeed support the text
>> you
>> > posted. And then you write that you agree with John that this kind of
>> > disinformation does not belong here. If you agree with that, why do you
>> > post it in the first place?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Is it just to play with us? To see who takes the bait and makes a fool
>> of
>> > himself? If it is, PLEASE go play somewhere else.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > If this means I just made a fool of myself ? so be it. It feels like
>> > bullying and I am sick of it. I want this to be a safe place.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Koos
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Van: OSList <oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:
>> > oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org> > Namens Mark Carmel via OSList
>> > Verzonden: donderdag 20 januari 2022 23:57
>> > Aan: John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com <mailto:johnw536 at mac.com> >
>> > CC: Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com <mailto:markacarmel at gmail.com>
>> >;
>> > World wide Open Space Technology email list <
>> > oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> >
>> > Onderwerp: Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I agree with you John...
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 3:38 PM John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com <mailto:
>> > johnw536 at mac.com> > wrote:
>> >
>> > I?m sorry but I do not think this kind of massive disinformation and
>> > political agenda belongs on this list.
>> >
>> > Sent from John's iPhone
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Jan 20, 2022, at 2:35 PM, Mark Carmel via OSList <
>> > oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> >
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > ?
>> >
>> > These are not my thoughts or my words. I Do not know the author. But
>> > here is food for thought, or better put... here is a shot for a
>> thought...
>> > that I wanted to share with YOU, the World's greatest peacemakers:
>> >
>> > Quote from author unknown: ...Among all the vaccines I have known in
>> my
>> > life (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, measles, rubella, chickenpox,
>> > hepatitis, meningitis and tuberculosis), I want to also add flu and
>> > pneumonia. I have never seen a vaccine that forced me to wear a mask and
>> > maintain my social distance, even when you are fully vaccinated. I had
>> > never heard of a vaccine that spreads the virus even after vaccination.
>> I
>> > had never heard of rewards, discounts, incentives to get vaccinated. I
>> > never saw discrimination for those who didn't. If you haven't been
>> > vaccinated no one has tried to make you feel like a bad person. I have
>> > never seen a vaccine that threatens the relationship between family,
>> > colleagues and friends. I have never seen a vaccine used to threaten
>> > livelihoods, work or school. I have never seen a vaccine that would
>> allow a
>> > 12-year-old to override parental consent. After all the vaccines I
>> listed
>> > above, I have never seen a vaccine like this one, which discriminates,
>> di
>> > vides and judges society as it is. And as the social fabric tightens?
>> > It's a powerful vaccine! She does all these things except IMMUNIZATION.
>> If
>> > we still need a booster dose after we are fully vaccinated, and we still
>> > need to get a negative test after we are fully vaccinated, and we still
>> > need to wear a mask after we are fully vaccinated, and still be
>> > hospitalized after we have been fully vaccinated, it will likely come to
>> > ...It's time for us to admit that we've been completely deceived... I
>> > have decided to never refer to this conglomerate of chemicals as a
>> > ...vaccine.. again if at all possible. It is not a legitimate
>> vaccine, it
>> > is a manufactured composition of unknown substances pretending to be
>> > something it IS NOT. So, for me, I will only refer to it as an
>> INJECTION,
>> > which is being forced upon us to subject us to TOTAL AUTHORITATIVE
>> CONTROL
>> > of every aspect of our lives until every human being on this planet has
>> > been made a subject of the ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT, ONE WORLD ECONO
>> > MY, ONE WORLD RELIGION just as has been foretold by many Prophecies in
>> > SCRIPTURE for untold years. This so-called virus was instituted by
>> design
>> > by those whose agendum is TOTAL population CONTROL... - B.S.
>> >
>> > ...The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will hate
>> those
>> > who speak it...--George Orwell
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > MC the MC
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > OSList mailing list
>> > To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:
>> > OSList at lists.openspacetech.org>
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>> > <mailto:OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
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>> > Past archives can be viewed here:
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>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > OSList mailing list
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>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 5
>> > Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2022 13:24:36 -0700
>> > From: Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com>
>> > To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
>> > <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> > Subject: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom? Reply to Amanda Bucklow and
>> > Michael Pannwitz
>> > Message-ID:
>> > <
>> > CAFDvDFiM_VE+UYNHvNa5qPgtG0rzbmUvtdMLmm5gFeD_pxdbiQ at mail.gmail.com>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> >
>> > To Amanda Bucklow,
>> > Thanks for your feedback. You fell right into what I will call the
>> > TocquevilleTRAP that is outlined in the thoughtful link provided by Rosa
>> > Zubizarreta on Needle Points (Thanks again Rosa!). Please allow me to
>> take
>> > on your hit piece, Amanda, point by point.
>> >
>> > But first I want to thank and commend Michael Pannwitz for your
>> response!
>> > You hit on points which i believe are profoundly wise. And thank you
>> for
>> > the story of Harrison getting his great book -The Practice of Peace -
>> > published.
>> >
>> > Fascinating Michael! You said Harrison's publisher rejected the book.
>> > Amanda, what if Harrison did what he was told (as you told me), to hush
>> up
>> > - ...change the subject... and as Koos told me, to get lost and ...
>> PLEASE
>> > go play somewhere else...? Well I guess we may not have the genius of
>> Open
>> > Space Technology if Harrison would have taken no for an answer and
>> allowed
>> > others to silence him and cancel his book of discoveries. Thanks
>> Harrison
>> > not giving up or giving in to your critics!
>> > ________________
>> >
>> > Michael Pannwitz, you said:
>> > They (Harrison's publisher) felt it didn't fit into their program...
>> this
>> > was
>> > not the end of the book....What happened?
>> >
>> > ... In no time flat the book was printed and distributed and later also
>> > translated by folks in 8 countries around the globe in North America,
>> > Europe, near and far Asia (from the European point of view), Australia,
>> > the Caribic ...
>> >
>> > Harrison called this phenomenon the "Global Chaordic Publication".
>> >
>> > It is the string "Who is BS-ing Whom?" that instantly fired up my
>> > synapses which resurfaced this phehomenon... and my thoughts later on.
>> >
>> > Mulling over the current pandemic lets me wonder what incited the worst
>> > pandemic on the globe.
>> > Not surprising myself in any serious fashion I felt it is us ouselves...
>> > like the creature in Pogo looking in a mirror seeing his enemy, see here
>> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_have_met_the_enemy
>> >
>> > And what is it, at the core, that causes this disaster? Which virus is
>> > that? What is the name of the disease this virus creates?
>> > How about "control", the only real enemy of "selforganisation".
>> > And who is best at controlling.
>> > Yep, us.
>> >
>> > What was the impedement to publishing "The Practice of Peace"? What
>> > hindered an established, mainstream and well known publisher to turn
>> > down a book from an author that had a vision?
>> >
>> > ... If we start controlling OSLIST it will lose its meaning...
>> >
>> > Thanks again Michael for this profound wisdom, making two top tier
>> points:
>> > That the name of the REAL disease the Virus has caused is: CONTROL....
>> and,
>> > that:
>> > ...control of the OS list will lose its meaning...
>> > __________________
>> >
>> > Amanda, you said the following which i will respond to point by point:
>> >
>> > ...One of the most important things about respectful disagreement is
>> > congruence and consistency. I notice the following in your response to
>> > Koos:
>> >
>> > I said I did not agree with the posted comments.
>> > I guess you feel the vaccine works as promised despite all the deaths we
>> > continue to see... good for you.
>> > I have had covid twice, initial round and omicron and killed it with
>> table
>> > salt in 4 days.
>> >
>> > I am happy to engage in respectful disagreement with those who are
>> willing
>> > to be called out on their mental models and I am calling you out, Mark,
>> on
>> > your manipulative arguments which will definitely feel like bullying to
>> > those who find inconsistency and flip-flopping deeply disrespectful.
>> >
>> > Please change the subject because this is going nowhere in terms of
>> > learning and appreciation. It certainly does not acknowledge the grief
>> and
>> > loss of those who couldn?t kill the virus with ?table salt? in 4 days.
>> > ______________
>> > OK, Amanda you are calling me out on my ...mental model... an
>
>
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