[OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?

[Mark Carmel]

Rosa Zubizarreta, thank YOU so very much for this truly awe inspiring,
interesting and intellectually important reference to needle points!

I took special notice of the line:
... an infected person may at first show only the mildest and nonspecific
symptoms, such as a cough or sniffle, before they become deathly ill...

It is SO TRUE, that ALL colds start with a sniffle, cough, or start of a
sore throat. That is our body and mind's way of telling us it's time to
start the fight against the bug bringing on these basic symptoms. But oh
no, that's not what our medical geniuses tell us... it is all right there
in black and white for anyone who gets covid, you get the same piece of
paper from all of group thinkers from CDC, WHO, NIH, Etc on down to local
docs, who say:  ...if you get covid DO NOTHING! Except run and hide from
your pets, family and friends... And you are also advised to spray chemical
cleaners (that you are then breathing in the whole time) on everything you
touch, each time you touch it, every day while in solitary confinement.
Then, say our health gurus, when you cant breath, and only then, you should
do something...go to the hospital, call an ambulance. Others who do nothing
and wait until they cant breathe  literally call the undertaker as they
pull out a pistol and shoot themselves. Suicide skyrocketing now during
this disease. My solution is simple and better and it works... The moment
you feel a runny nose or sore throat, cough, etc., gargle with hot salt
water and rinse your nose with a saline rinse...bye bye bugs...!

I also take note of another great point in your Needle Points reference,
Rosa, and thank you most gratefully for this one also... not because it
proves my point on leadership loyalty and retaliation for failure to do so,
but because it is a profound truth that all OST facilitators should
understand before sending participants into the new lion's den known as
open and honest input, giving people the liberty to express one's opinion.
Here is that great point:

...One person who understood how this works intuitively was Alexis de
Tocqueville. In democracies, as long as there is not yet a majority
opinion, a range of views can be expressed, and it appears there is a great
“liberty of opinion,” to use his phrase. But once a majority opinion forms,
it acquires a sudden social power, and it brings with it pressure to end
dissent. A powerful new kind of censorship and coercion begins in everyday
life (at work, school, choir, church, hospitals, in all institutions) as
the majority turns on the minority, demanding it comply. Tocqueville, like
James Madison, was concerned about this “the tyranny of the majority,”
which he saw as the Achilles’ heel of democracy. It isn’t only because
divisiveness created a minority faction steeped in lingering resentment;
it’s also because minorities can sometimes be more right than majorities
(indeed, emerging ideas are, by definition, minority ideas to start with).
The majority overtaking the minority could mean stamping out thoughts and
actions that would otherwise generate progress and forward movement...

...It is a fascinating moment when this sort of crystallization happens in
a mass culture like America’s, because seemingly overnight even the
definition of legitimate speech (or thought or action) also changes.
Tocqueville observed that quite abruptly a person can no longer express
opinions or raise questions that only days before were acceptable, even
though no facts of the matter have changed. At an individual level, people
who were within the bounds can be surprised to find themselves ...tormented
by the slights and persecutions of daily obloquy... Once this occurs, he
wrote, ...your fellow-creatures will shun you like an impure being, and
those who are most persuaded of your innocence will abandon you too, lest
they should be shunned in their turn...

In the midst of a pandemic, seeing the unvaccinated as “impure” is no
surprise, because of course they could carry contagion. But as Tocqueville
pointed out, this *also* occurs when there is no contagion, and we begin to
experience those who are on the wrong side as “impure”—as in failing the
purity test—and react to them as though they are dangerous. That we do this
even when there is no pandemic suggests that there is, along with realistic
fear of infection, something else going on here—a sense that those with
whom we may disagree are impurities in the body politic, bad people who
need to be taught a lesson, even punished.
A final poignant point to me in your piece Rosa was this gem talking about
what we do! Facilitating THE participatory proceess of OST.  Here in
context of public health.

June 2021 Gallup
<https://news.gallup.com/poll/350720/covid-vaccine-reluctant-likely-stay.aspx>
poll
found that, among the vaccinated, 53% now worry most about those choosing
not to get vaccinated, “surpassing concerns about lack of social distancing
in their area (27%), availability of local hospital resources and supplies
(11%), and availability of coronavirus tests in their area (5%).” True to
the BIS’s impulses, this fear is metastasizing into disgust, even hatred,
of those who—because they believe or act differently—are now perceived as
threats: On Aug. 26, in a front-page story in the *Toronto Star*, my local
newspaper, a resident was quoted as saying: ...I have no empathy left for
the willfully unvaccinated. Let them die...

In the midst of such a death wish for fellow human beings, even the person
quoted understood that an important mental capacity has been lost: empathy,
or the ability to model other people’s minds. When we lose that en masse,
the results can be tragic, not least because getting through this must be a
group effort.

As I understand it, there are two main approaches to public health in
liberal democracies, and both have been tried historically in different
places. One begins voluntarily, out of respect for civil liberties, but
switches to coercion when some voluntary ceiling, deemed insufficient, is
reached. Ideally, this intervention is based on the principle of
least-necessary coercion. The benefit to this is that it may work to get
more people vaccinated in shorter order. But it also conveys that the
government does not trust its citizens to make good decisions on their own,
a condescension that in turn—this is human nature 101—eventually generates
resentment, even revolt, and the disengagement of significant segments of
the population. The other approach, participatory public health, sees the
need for coercion as a sign that something in the public health outreach
itself has failed; if a ceiling is reached, society’s leaders should not
simply resort to force but rather confront the flaws in their own
leadership—that they should double-down on their responsibility to generate
trust in the public. The goal of participatory public health is not to
crush, but to better engage.

In that spirit, what follows is an attempt by a physician and neuroscience
writer and someone who got vaccinated, early and voluntarily, to understand
those who have not made this choice. This essay is not about COVID-deniers
or anti-vaxxers, who oppose vaccines on ideological grounds. Nor is it
about the activists or political figures who feed off and benefit from the
corrosive discourse around vaccines. It is instead about the vaccine
hesitant—those who are concerned and anxious about COVID but *also* anxious
about these new vaccines. These are the people who are not yet vaccinated
for reasons that the majority may not understand—and which are often more
anchored in history and experience than the majority would suspect. They
are the Tocquevillian minority that the majority is threatening with job
loss and other restrictions.

One needn’t agree with the decisions or actions of the vaccine hesitant in
order to learn something from them and about them, and about society as a
whole. They pay attention to, and are vigilant about, different issues than
the vaccinated, and have strong feelings about the people and institutions
involved in our public health—particularly politicians, the drug regulatory
process, and pharmaceutical companies. For many, vaccine hesitancy is not
simply about the vaccines; it’s about the absence of faith in the wider
systems that brought us the vaccines. “Public health moves at the speed of
trust,” notes physician and author Rishi Manchanda. If we want our public
health system to function better—safer, swifter, in ways that more
effectively safeguard the lives and livelihoods of all citizens—it must be
rooted not in coercion but in confidence, and not only among the majority.

Thanks again Rosa!  Wishing you and all list serve members PEACE!  IF the
world was truly open to the best ideas to do the most good for all of
humanity, then Open Space Technology would be mandated and there would be
Statues of Harrison Owen in every town square and marketplace of Ideas in
the World.


On Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 1:55 PM Rosa Zubizarreta <rosa at diapraxis.com> wrote:

> Ok... I don't know Mark or his motives.
> I do think this is a topic worthy of serious and considered conversation.
>
> The best example I have seen so far,
> of someone who is in favor of vaccines, attempting to understand the
> viewpoint of those who are hesitant or skeptical,
> is Norman Doidge's four-part series called "Needlepoints".
>
>
> https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/science/articles/needle-points-vaccinations-chapter-one
>
> I don't know the author, but I sure wish I did...
> apparently he's written a number of NYT best-sellers on neuroplasticity.
> Very erudite person, and lovely writer.
>
> And very thoughtful -- and thought-provoking -- perspectives.
>
> all best wishes,
>
> Rosaa
>
>
>
> * <http://diapraxis.com>*
> *Rosa Zubizarreta *
> *DiaPraxis: Awakening the Spirit of Creative Collaboration
> <http://diapraxis.com>*
> *coaching in participatory leadership *
> *advanced group facilitation services & learning opportunities*
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:15 PM Koos de Heer via OSList <
> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>
>> Dear Mark,
>>
>>
>>
>> The one and only burning question I have is: why???
>>
>>
>>
>> Why do you post a quote like that, saying that it is not your words but
>> posting it nonetheless? And when someone objects, you repeat the quote
>> about society and truth, implying that you do indeed support the text you
>> posted. And then you write that you agree with John that this kind of
>> disinformation does not belong here. If you agree with that, why do you
>> post it in the first place?
>>
>>
>>
>> Is it just to play with us? To see who takes the bait and makes a fool of
>> himself? If it is, PLEASE  go play somewhere else.
>>
>>
>>
>> If this means I just made a fool of myself – so be it. It feels like
>> bullying and I am sick of it. I want this to be a safe place.
>>
>>
>>
>> Koos
>>
>>
>>
>> *Van:* OSList <oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org> *Namens *Mark
>> Carmel via OSList
>> *Verzonden:* donderdag 20 januari 2022 23:57
>> *Aan:* John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com>
>> *CC:* Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com>; World wide Open Space
>> Technology email list <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> *Onderwerp:* Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
>>
>>
>>
>> I agree with you John...
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 3:38 PM John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com> wrote:
>>
>> I’m sorry but I do not think this kind of massive disinformation and
>> political agenda belongs on this list.
>>
>> Sent from John's iPhone
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jan 20, 2022, at 2:35 PM, Mark Carmel via OSList <
>> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>> These are not my thoughts or my words.  I Do not know the author.  But
>> here is food for thought, or better put... here is a shot for a thought...
>> that I wanted to share with YOU, the World's greatest peacemakers:
>>
>> Quote from author unknown:   ...Among all the vaccines I have known in my
>> life (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, measles, rubella, chickenpox,
>> hepatitis, meningitis and tuberculosis), I want to also add flu and
>> pneumonia. I have never seen a vaccine that forced me to wear a mask and
>> maintain my social distance, even when you are fully vaccinated. I had
>> never heard of a vaccine that spreads the virus even after vaccination. I
>> had never heard of rewards, discounts, incentives to get vaccinated. I
>> never saw discrimination for those who didn't. If you haven't been
>> vaccinated no one has tried to make you feel like a bad person. I have
>> never seen a vaccine that threatens the relationship between family,
>> colleagues and friends. I have never seen a vaccine used to threaten
>> livelihoods, work or school. I have never seen a vaccine that would allow a
>> 12-year-old to override parental consent. After all the vaccines I listed
>> above, I have never seen a vaccine like this one, which discriminates,
>> divides and judges society as it is. And as the social fabric tightens…
>> It's a powerful vaccine! She does all these things except IMMUNIZATION. If
>> we still need a booster dose after we are fully vaccinated, and we still
>> need to get a negative test after we are fully vaccinated, and we still
>> need to wear a mask after we are fully vaccinated, and still be
>> hospitalized after we have been fully vaccinated, it will likely come to
>> ...It's time for us to admit that we've been completely deceived...   I
>> have decided to never refer to this conglomerate of chemicals as a
>> ...vaccine.. again if at all possible.   It is not a legitimate vaccine, it
>> is a manufactured composition of unknown substances pretending to be
>> something it IS NOT.  So, for me, I will only refer to it as an INJECTION,
>> which is being forced upon us to subject us to TOTAL AUTHORITATIVE CONTROL
>> of every aspect of our lives until every human being on this planet has
>> been made a subject of the ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT, ONE WORLD ECONOMY, ONE
>> WORLD RELIGION just as has been foretold by many Prophecies in SCRIPTURE
>> for untold years.  This so-called virus was instituted by design by those
>> whose agendum is TOTAL population CONTROL...  -  B.S.
>>
>> ...The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will hate
>> those who speak it...--George Orwell
>>
>>
>>
>> MC the MC
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OSList mailing list
>> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
>> To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>> Past archives can be viewed here:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OSList mailing list
>> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
>> To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>> Past archives can be viewed here:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.openspacetech.org/pipermail/oslist-openspacetech.org/attachments/20220121/910a2666/attachment.html>