[OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?

Fri Jan 21 15:33:02 PST 2022

I still say the vaccinating at Top Shop was a rather jolly affair.

Paul

On Fri, 21 Jan 2022, 22:42 Mark Carmel via OSList, <
oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:

> Rosa Zubizarreta, thank YOU so very much for this truly awe inspiring,
> interesting and intellectually important reference to needle points!
>
> I took special notice of the line:
> ... an infected person may at first show only the mildest and nonspecific
> symptoms, such as a cough or sniffle, before they become deathly ill...
>
> It is SO TRUE, that ALL colds start with a sniffle, cough, or start of a
> sore throat. That is our body and mind's way of telling us it's time to
> start the fight against the bug bringing on these basic symptoms. But oh
> no, that's not what our medical geniuses tell us... it is all right there
> in black and white for anyone who gets covid, you get the same piece of
> paper from all of group thinkers from CDC, WHO, NIH, Etc on down to local
> docs, who say:  ...if you get covid DO NOTHING! Except run and hide from
> your pets, family and friends... And you are also advised to spray chemical
> cleaners (that you are then breathing in the whole time) on everything you
> touch, each time you touch it, every day while in solitary confinement.
> Then, say our health gurus, when you cant breath, and only then, you should
> do something...go to the hospital, call an ambulance. Others who do nothing
> and wait until they cant breathe  literally call the undertaker as they
> pull out a pistol and shoot themselves. Suicide skyrocketing now during
> this disease. My solution is simple and better and it works... The moment
> you feel a runny nose or sore throat, cough, etc., gargle with hot salt
> water and rinse your nose with a saline rinse...bye bye bugs...!
>
> I also take note of another great point in your Needle Points reference,
> Rosa, and thank you most gratefully for this one also... not because it
> proves my point on leadership loyalty and retaliation for failure to do so,
> but because it is a profound truth that all OST facilitators should
> understand before sending participants into the new lion's den known as
> open and honest input, giving people the liberty to express one's opinion.
> Here is that great point:
>
> ...One person who understood how this works intuitively was Alexis de
> Tocqueville. In democracies, as long as there is not yet a majority
> opinion, a range of views can be expressed, and it appears there is a great
> “liberty of opinion,” to use his phrase. But once a majority opinion forms,
> it acquires a sudden social power, and it brings with it pressure to end
> dissent. A powerful new kind of censorship and coercion begins in everyday
> life (at work, school, choir, church, hospitals, in all institutions) as
> the majority turns on the minority, demanding it comply. Tocqueville, like
> James Madison, was concerned about this “the tyranny of the majority,”
> which he saw as the Achilles’ heel of democracy. It isn’t only because
> divisiveness created a minority faction steeped in lingering resentment;
> it’s also because minorities can sometimes be more right than majorities
> (indeed, emerging ideas are, by definition, minority ideas to start with).
> The majority overtaking the minority could mean stamping out thoughts and
> actions that would otherwise generate progress and forward movement...
>
> ...It is a fascinating moment when this sort of crystallization happens in
> a mass culture like America’s, because seemingly overnight even the
> definition of legitimate speech (or thought or action) also changes.
> Tocqueville observed that quite abruptly a person can no longer express
> opinions or raise questions that only days before were acceptable, even
> though no facts of the matter have changed. At an individual level, people
> who were within the bounds can be surprised to find themselves ...tormented
> by the slights and persecutions of daily obloquy... Once this occurs, he
> wrote, ...your fellow-creatures will shun you like an impure being, and
> those who are most persuaded of your innocence will abandon you too, lest
> they should be shunned in their turn...
>
> In the midst of a pandemic, seeing the unvaccinated as “impure” is no
> surprise, because of course they could carry contagion. But as Tocqueville
> pointed out, this *also* occurs when there is no contagion, and we begin
> to experience those who are on the wrong side as “impure”—as in failing the
> purity test—and react to them as though they are dangerous. That we do this
> even when there is no pandemic suggests that there is, along with realistic
> fear of infection, something else going on here—a sense that those with
> whom we may disagree are impurities in the body politic, bad people who
> need to be taught a lesson, even punished.
> A final poignant point to me in your piece Rosa was this gem talking about
> what we do! Facilitating THE participatory proceess of OST.  Here in
> context of public health.
>
> June 2021 Gallup
> <https://news.gallup.com/poll/350720/covid-vaccine-reluctant-likely-stay.aspx> poll
> found that, among the vaccinated, 53% now worry most about those choosing
> not to get vaccinated, “surpassing concerns about lack of social distancing
> in their area (27%), availability of local hospital resources and supplies
> (11%), and availability of coronavirus tests in their area (5%).” True to
> the BIS’s impulses, this fear is metastasizing into disgust, even hatred,
> of those who—because they believe or act differently—are now perceived as
> threats: On Aug. 26, in a front-page story in the *Toronto Star*, my
> local newspaper, a resident was quoted as saying: ...I have no empathy left
> for the willfully unvaccinated. Let them die...
>
> In the midst of such a death wish for fellow human beings, even the person
> quoted understood that an important mental capacity has been lost: empathy,
> or the ability to model other people’s minds. When we lose that en masse,
> the results can be tragic, not least because getting through this must be a
> group effort.
>
> As I understand it, there are two main approaches to public health in
> liberal democracies, and both have been tried historically in different
> places. One begins voluntarily, out of respect for civil liberties, but
> switches to coercion when some voluntary ceiling, deemed insufficient, is
> reached. Ideally, this intervention is based on the principle of
> least-necessary coercion. The benefit to this is that it may work to get
> more people vaccinated in shorter order. But it also conveys that the
> government does not trust its citizens to make good decisions on their own,
> a condescension that in turn—this is human nature 101—eventually generates
> resentment, even revolt, and the disengagement of significant segments of
> the population. The other approach, participatory public health, sees the
> need for coercion as a sign that something in the public health outreach
> itself has failed; if a ceiling is reached, society’s leaders should not
> simply resort to force but rather confront the flaws in their own
> leadership—that they should double-down on their responsibility to generate
> trust in the public. The goal of participatory public health is not to
> crush, but to better engage.
>
> In that spirit, what follows is an attempt by a physician and neuroscience
> writer and someone who got vaccinated, early and voluntarily, to understand
> those who have not made this choice. This essay is not about COVID-deniers
> or anti-vaxxers, who oppose vaccines on ideological grounds. Nor is it
> about the activists or political figures who feed off and benefit from the
> corrosive discourse around vaccines. It is instead about the vaccine
> hesitant—those who are concerned and anxious about COVID but *also* anxious
> about these new vaccines. These are the people who are not yet vaccinated
> for reasons that the majority may not understand—and which are often more
> anchored in history and experience than the majority would suspect. They
> are the Tocquevillian minority that the majority is threatening with job
> loss and other restrictions.
>
> One needn’t agree with the decisions or actions of the vaccine hesitant in
> order to learn something from them and about them, and about society as a
> whole. They pay attention to, and are vigilant about, different issues than
> the vaccinated, and have strong feelings about the people and institutions
> involved in our public health—particularly politicians, the drug regulatory
> process, and pharmaceutical companies. For many, vaccine hesitancy is not
> simply about the vaccines; it’s about the absence of faith in the wider
> systems that brought us the vaccines. “Public health moves at the speed of
> trust,” notes physician and author Rishi Manchanda. If we want our public
> health system to function better—safer, swifter, in ways that more
> effectively safeguard the lives and livelihoods of all citizens—it must be
> rooted not in coercion but in confidence, and not only among the majority.
>
> Thanks again Rosa!  Wishing you and all list serve members PEACE!  IF the
> world was truly open to the best ideas to do the most good for all of
> humanity, then Open Space Technology would be mandated and there would be
> Statues of Harrison Owen in every town square and marketplace of Ideas in
> the World.
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 1:55 PM Rosa Zubizarreta <rosa at diapraxis.com> wrote:
>
>> Ok... I don't know Mark or his motives.
>> I do think this is a topic worthy of serious and considered conversation.
>>
>> The best example I have seen so far,
>> of someone who is in favor of vaccines, attempting to understand the
>> viewpoint of those who are hesitant or skeptical,
>> is Norman Doidge's four-part series called "Needlepoints".
>>
>>
>> https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/science/articles/needle-points-vaccinations-chapter-one
>>
>> I don't know the author, but I sure wish I did...
>> apparently he's written a number of NYT best-sellers on neuroplasticity.
>> Very erudite person, and lovely writer.
>>
>> And very thoughtful -- and thought-provoking -- perspectives.
>>
>> all best wishes,
>>
>> Rosaa
>>
>>
>>
>> * <http://diapraxis.com>*
>> *Rosa Zubizarreta *
>> *DiaPraxis: Awakening the Spirit of Creative Collaboration
>> <http://diapraxis.com>*
>> *coaching in participatory leadership *
>> *advanced group facilitation services & learning opportunities*
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 2:15 PM Koos de Heer via OSList <
>> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Mark,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The one and only burning question I have is: why???
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Why do you post a quote like that, saying that it is not your words but
>>> posting it nonetheless? And when someone objects, you repeat the quote
>>> about society and truth, implying that you do indeed support the text you
>>> posted. And then you write that you agree with John that this kind of
>>> disinformation does not belong here. If you agree with that, why do you
>>> post it in the first place?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Is it just to play with us? To see who takes the bait and makes a fool
>>> of himself? If it is, PLEASE  go play somewhere else.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If this means I just made a fool of myself – so be it. It feels like
>>> bullying and I am sick of it. I want this to be a safe place.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Koos
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Van:* OSList <oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org> *Namens *Mark
>>> Carmel via OSList
>>> *Verzonden:* donderdag 20 januari 2022 23:57
>>> *Aan:* John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com>
>>> *CC:* Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com>; World wide Open Space
>>> Technology email list <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>>> *Onderwerp:* Re: [OSList] Who is BS-ing Whom?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I agree with you John...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 3:38 PM John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I’m sorry but I do not think this kind of massive disinformation and
>>> political agenda belongs on this list.
>>>
>>> Sent from John's iPhone
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jan 20, 2022, at 2:35 PM, Mark Carmel via OSList <
>>> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>> These are not my thoughts or my words.  I Do not know the author.  But
>>> here is food for thought, or better put... here is a shot for a thought...
>>> that I wanted to share with YOU, the World's greatest peacemakers:
>>>
>>> Quote from author unknown:   ...Among all the vaccines I have known in
>>> my life (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, measles, rubella, chickenpox,
>>> hepatitis, meningitis and tuberculosis), I want to also add flu and
>>> pneumonia. I have never seen a vaccine that forced me to wear a mask and
>>> maintain my social distance, even when you are fully vaccinated. I had
>>> never heard of a vaccine that spreads the virus even after vaccination. I
>>> had never heard of rewards, discounts, incentives to get vaccinated. I
>>> never saw discrimination for those who didn't. If you haven't been
>>> vaccinated no one has tried to make you feel like a bad person. I have
>>> never seen a vaccine that threatens the relationship between family,
>>> colleagues and friends. I have never seen a vaccine used to threaten
>>> livelihoods, work or school. I have never seen a vaccine that would allow a
>>> 12-year-old to override parental consent. After all the vaccines I listed
>>> above, I have never seen a vaccine like this one, which discriminates,
>>> divides and judges society as it is. And as the social fabric tightens…
>>> It's a powerful vaccine! She does all these things except IMMUNIZATION. If
>>> we still need a booster dose after we are fully vaccinated, and we still
>>> need to get a negative test after we are fully vaccinated, and we still
>>> need to wear a mask after we are fully vaccinated, and still be
>>> hospitalized after we have been fully vaccinated, it will likely come to
>>> ...It's time for us to admit that we've been completely deceived...   I
>>> have decided to never refer to this conglomerate of chemicals as a
>>> ...vaccine.. again if at all possible.   It is not a legitimate vaccine, it
>>> is a manufactured composition of unknown substances pretending to be
>>> something it IS NOT.  So, for me, I will only refer to it as an INJECTION,
>>> which is being forced upon us to subject us to TOTAL AUTHORITATIVE CONTROL
>>> of every aspect of our lives until every human being on this planet has
>>> been made a subject of the ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT, ONE WORLD ECONOMY, ONE
>>> WORLD RELIGION just as has been foretold by many Prophecies in SCRIPTURE
>>> for untold years.  This so-called virus was instituted by design by those
>>> whose agendum is TOTAL population CONTROL...  -  B.S.
>>>
>>> ...The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will hate
>>> those who speak it...--George Orwell
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> MC the MC
>>>
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>>
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