[OSList] Canada Conundrum - reply to Chris Corrigan
Mark Carmel
markacarmel at gmail.com
Sat Feb 19 14:03:14 PST 2022
Chris,
Wow, talk about taking it personal! I am anti fascist also, a Jew. So you
got it wrong pal. Who anointed you the OST Judge? I ain't judging nothing
except the fake news who drive these divisions by playing the race and nazi
card. What news do you watch to get these facts? I asked what do people
think. You unleashed hate brother. Go get some rest...
MC
On Sat, Feb 19, 2022, 2:38 PM <oslist-request at lists.openspacetech.org>
wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
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> 1. Re: OSList Digest, Vol 130, Issue 7 (Mark Carmel)
> 2. What could dialogue look like between people of Russia and
> people of the West? (Lucas Cioffi)
> 3. Re: What could dialogue look like between people of Russia
> and people of the West? (Michael Herman)
> 4. Re: Canada Conundrum - what do you think - reply to nazi
> comment (Chris Corrigan)
> 5. Re: What could dialogue look like between people of Russia
> and people of the West? (paul levy)
> 6. Re: What could dialogue look like between people of Russia
> and people of the West? (Romy Shovelton)
> 7. Re: Canada Conundrum - what do you think - reply to nazi
> comment (David Osborne)
> 8. Re: Canada Conundrum - what do you think - reply to nazi
> comment (Romy Shovelton)
> 9. Re: Canada Conundrum - what do you think - reply to nazi
> comment (John Watkins)
> 10. Re: Canada Conundrum - what do you think - reply to nazi
> comment (Amanda Bucklow)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 15:20:49 -0700
> From: Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com>
> To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
> <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
> Subject: Re: [OSList] OSList Digest, Vol 130, Issue 7
> Message-ID:
> <CAFDvDFgxhXU2=
> csztBBFuRnZGOJdhLkE7WvrmdcEMJRJvS8A6w at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Thank you for the clarification and excellent information Glenn and John.
> I sincerely appreciate it and wish you and all concerned the very BEST!
> MC
>
> On Fri, Feb 18, 2022 at 2:52 PM <oslist-request at lists.openspacetech.org>
> wrote:
>
> > Send OSList mailing list submissions to
> > oslist at lists.openspacetech.org
> >
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> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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> > You can reach the person managing the list at
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> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of OSList digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Canada Conundrum - what do you think - reply to nazi comment
> > (Mark Carmel)
> > 2. Re: Canada Conundrum - what do you think - reply to nazi
> > comment (Glenn Waters)
> > 3. Re: Canada Conundrum - what do you think - reply to nazi
> > comment (john watkins)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 09:56:20 -0700
> > From: Mark Carmel <markacarmel at gmail.com>
> > To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
> > <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
> > Subject: [OSList] Canada Conundrum - what do you think - reply to nazi
> > comment
> > Message-ID:
> > <
> > CAFDvDFg7QCLDXvEWbe4D5-mFOX2pq0NpBT2fbqj6tw5-5AQqfw at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > I have tried my best to bite my lip Regarding the dude's comment that all
> > of the truckers must be white supremest nazi types ... What a ridiculous
> > belief... that's being fed by the fake news that paints every Person
> > protesting for Freedom as a white supremest. Yeah, Total BS.... We are
> > open space technology facilitators we believe in freedom ... right? Or
> have
> > I misunderstood something? And what did Canada decide to do? They
> decided
> > to go and seize the bank accounts and the crypto wallets of the
> > protesters.. Now what sounds more like nazi tactics, protesting for
> > freedom or seizing people's bank accounts without a trial?
> > -------------- next part --------------
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> > >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 13:03:35 -0500
> > From: "Glenn Waters" <glenn at watrs.ca>
> > To: oslist at lists.openspacetech.org
> > Subject: Re: [OSList] Canada Conundrum - what do you think - reply to
> > nazi comment
> > Message-ID: <e05f4c61-39e8-44e5-8fe8-043fc5f98ba3 at www.fastmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > Enough of the nazi crap, please. I can't answer if you've misunderstood
> > something but let me share some facts about what is going on.
> >
> > In general this is a peaceful group of people. There are however a number
> > of people attending that are not peaceful. They harass, assault
> (physically
> > and verbally), and torment people who live in this area.
> >
> > A large portion of the downtown is closed because it has been taken over.
> > This is having real affect on those businesses that are already hanging
> on
> > by their fingernails to stay in business.
> >
> > For the residents living in this area the only two nearby grocery stores
> > have closed because they fear for the safety of their staff. Many other
> > stores and restaurants are closed for safety reasons.
> >
> > Nazi flags have been flown, as have other symbols that are commonly
> > associated with hate and supremacy.
> >
> > Well documented leaders of white supremacists groups are attending. This
> > does appear to be the minority, but I don't have data. Some have been
> > arrested in the last few days.
> >
> > Shifting to opinion.
> >
> > I don't think of what is happening a few kilometres from my home as a
> > protest anymore. It is an occupation that is taking away from the
> freedoms
> > of those who choose to live and work in Ottawa.
> >
> > The occupiers assets are not being seized. They are being frozen. As this
> > is an occupation I am perfectly fine that.
> >
> > The occupiers are incoherent. When asked about their demands it ranges
> > from "Freedom." to "We want to take over the government." There is little
> > substantiation behind any of the remarks. Most engagements with the
> > occupiers does not result in any understanding of what they actually
> want.
> > My understanding is that the original premise of the protests was around
> > don't force us to be vaccinated, wear masks, or have to have/show a
> vaccine
> > passport.
> >
> > I say go ahead and protest. That is your right and I believe in and
> > support those rights. Occupation is not on.
> >
> > On Fri, Feb 18, 2022, at 11:56, Mark Carmel via OSList wrote:
> > > I have tried my best to bite my lip Regarding the dude's comment that
> > all of the truckers must be white supremest nazi types ... What a
> > ridiculous belief... that's being fed by the fake news that paints every
> > Person protesting for Freedom as a white supremest. Yeah, Total BS....
> We
> > are open space technology facilitators we believe in freedom ... right?
> Or
> > have I misunderstood something? And what did Canada decide to do? They
> > decided to go and seize the bank accounts and the crypto wallets of the
> > protesters.. Now what sounds more like nazi tactics, protesting for
> > freedom or seizing people's bank accounts without a trial?
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > OSList mailing list
> > > To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
> > > To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
> > > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
> > > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
> > > Past archives can be viewed here:
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
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> > >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2022 12:07:01 -0800
> > From: john watkins <johnw536 at mac.com>
> > To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
> > <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
> > Subject: Re: [OSList] Canada Conundrum - what do you think - reply to
> > nazi comment
> > Message-ID: <FD72DA66-53C5-4F76-88EB-4C3ADE2BF100 at mac.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > Glen has the facts right.
> > The flags include the Confederate battle flag.
> > And it might be noted that 55% of the funding for this occupation is
> > coming from right wing Christian groups in the US.
> > And that the national truckers association in Canada has said it does not
> > represent Canadian truckers.
> > And the vaccination rate among Canadian truckers is between 83% and 90%.
> >
> > John Watkins
> >
> > > On Feb 18, 2022, at 10:03 AM, Glenn Waters via OSList <
> > oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > Enough of the nazi crap, please. I can't answer if you've misunderstood
> > something but let me share some facts about what is going on.
> > >
> > > In general this is a peaceful group of people. There are however a
> > number of people attending that are not peaceful. They harass, assault
> > (physically and verbally), and torment people who live in this area.
> > >
> > > A large portion of the downtown is closed because it has been taken
> > over. This is having real affect on those businesses that are already
> > hanging on by their fingernails to stay in business.
> > >
> > > For the residents living in this area the only two nearby grocery
> stores
> > have closed because they fear for the safety of their staff. Many other
> > stores and restaurants are closed for safety reasons.
> > >
> > > Nazi flags have been flown, as have other symbols that are commonly
> > associated with hate and supremacy.
> > >
> > > Well documented leaders of white supremacists groups are attending.
> This
> > does appear to be the minority, but I don't have data. Some have been
> > arrested in the last few days.
> > >
> > > Shifting to opinion.
> > >
> > > I don't think of what is happening a few kilometres from my home as a
> > protest anymore. It is an occupation that is taking away from the
> freedoms
> > of those who choose to live and work in Ottawa.
> > >
> > > The occupiers assets are not being seized. They are being frozen. As
> > this is an occupation I am perfectly fine that.
> > >
> > > The occupiers are incoherent. When asked about their demands it ranges
> > from "Freedom." to "We want to take over the government." There is little
> > substantiation behind any of the remarks. Most engagements with the
> > occupiers does not result in any understanding of what they actually
> want.
> > My understanding is that the original premise of the protests was around
> > don't force us to be vaccinated, wear masks, or have to have/show a
> vaccine
> > passport.
> > >
> > > I say go ahead and protest. That is your right and I believe in and
> > support those rights. Occupation is not on.
> > >
> > > On Fri, Feb 18, 2022, at 11:56, Mark Carmel via OSList wrote:
> > >> I have tried my best to bite my lip Regarding the dude's comment that
> > all of the truckers must be white supremest nazi types ... What a
> > ridiculous belief... that's being fed by the fake news that paints every
> > Person protesting for Freedom as a white supremest. Yeah, Total BS....
> We
> > are open space technology facilitators we believe in freedom ... right?
> Or
> > have I misunderstood something? And what did Canada decide to do? They
> > decided to go and seize the bank accounts and the crypto wallets of the
> > protesters.. Now what sounds more like nazi tactics, protesting for
> > freedom or seizing people's bank accounts without a trial?
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> OSList mailing list
> > >> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:
> > OSList at lists.openspacetech.org>
> > >> To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
> > <mailto:OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org>
> > >> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
> > >> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
> <
> > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org>
> > >> Past archives can be viewed here:
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org <
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org>
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > OSList mailing list
> > > To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:
> > OSList at lists.openspacetech.org>
> > > To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
> > <mailto:OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org>
> > > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
> > > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org <
> > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org>
> > > Past archives can be viewed here:
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org <
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org>
> >
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> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Digest Footer
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OSList mailing list
> > To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
> > To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
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> > Past archives can be viewed here:
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > End of OSList Digest, Vol 130, Issue 7
> > **************************************
> >
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 12:35:32 -0500
> From: Lucas Cioffi <lucas at qiqochat.com>
> To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
> <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
> Subject: [OSList] What could dialogue look like between people of
> Russia and people of the West?
> Message-ID:
> <
> CAEj+rxpyGm1iyYhDtzaX8F27rC7a04jALbShjh-Q0OCg4OsNHA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Dear OSLIST,
>
>
> Does anyone want to try opening up some dialogue channels between the
> people of Russia and the people of the West? It's way too late to affect
> the current situation in Ukraine, but dialogue could be helpful for the
> long term.
>
>
> I believe that if the people speak with each other directly
> and (eventually) on a large enough scale, then there is a strong chance for
> understanding to be built, less us-vs.-them thinking, and that would give
> political leaders flexibility to choose options other than war to solve big
> problems.
>
>
> It doesn't look like many are doing anything like this yet. With a quick
> Google search I could only find the Carnegie Moscow Center
> <
> https://carnegiemoscow.org/specialprojects/relaunchingusrussiadialogueonglobalchallenges/?lang=en
> >
> as
> an organization interested in a participatory US-Russia dialogue.
>
>
> Assuming there was an unlimited budget, how could a dialogue be designed?
> Is anyone interested in working on something like this?
>
>
> Lucas Cioffi
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 11:00:14 -0700
> From: Michael Herman <michael at michaelherman.com>
> To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
> <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
> Subject: Re: [OSList] What could dialogue look like between people of
> Russia and people of the West?
> Message-ID:
> <CAD8j=QGHRB7CaSOfcHCGZ=
> mMrj65CwQ6+WRKQB-XWRO04QbqOQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I know that this scale of dialogue is what Qiqo was originally built for,
> Lucas. So I'm glad to see you asking this question. I wonder if the folks
> at helena.org would appreciate it. They did a small-sample program
> "American in One Room," a weekend gathering, folks flown in from all 50
> states, as I recall, in conjunction with the NYTimes and some folks at U of
> Chicago.
>
> Michael
>
> --
>
> Michael Herman
> Michael Herman Associates
> 312-280-7838 (mobile)
>
> MichaelHerman.com
> OpenSpaceWorld.org
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 19, 2022 at 10:35 AM Lucas Cioffi via OSList <
> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>
> > Dear OSLIST,
> >
> >
> > Does anyone want to try opening up some dialogue channels between the
> > people of Russia and the people of the West? It's way too late to affect
> > the current situation in Ukraine, but dialogue could be helpful for the
> > long term.
> >
> >
> > I believe that if the people speak with each other directly
> > and (eventually) on a large enough scale, then there is a strong chance
> for
> > understanding to be built, less us-vs.-them thinking, and that would give
> > political leaders flexibility to choose options other than war to solve
> big
> > problems.
> >
> >
> > It doesn't look like many are doing anything like this yet. With a quick
> > Google search I could only find the Carnegie Moscow Center
> > <
> https://carnegiemoscow.org/specialprojects/relaunchingusrussiadialogueonglobalchallenges/?lang=en>
> as
> > an organization interested in a participatory US-Russia dialogue.
> >
> >
> > Assuming there was an unlimited budget, how could a dialogue be designed?
> > Is anyone interested in working on something like this?
> >
> >
> > Lucas Cioffi
> > _______________________________________________
> > OSList mailing list
> > To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
> > To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
> > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
> > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
> > Past archives can be viewed here:
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 10:27:05 -0800
> From: Chris Corrigan <chris at chriscorrigan.com>
> To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
> <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
> Subject: Re: [OSList] Canada Conundrum - what do you think - reply to
> nazi comment
> Message-ID:
> <CAO8x+WDcs7jkVZJXpRBYAwYU37N=
> qfsw14ahaDP1V-Boi3j3kw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Mark:
>
> I have mostly been ignoring your posts around this but I have to speak out
> now.
>
> The leaders of the protest in Ottawa who have now been arrested include
> people who are open, brazen white supremacists, anti-Semites,
> anti-indigenous. Their views are all over the Internet. There are multiple
> far right and racist groups and leaders in this protest. There are flying
> their own flags and wearing their colours. They are not hiding. They are
> not just misunderstood people. They are openly promoting fascism, racism,
> white supremacy, xenophobia and anti-Senitism. There is an unbelievable
> amount of hate being spouted all over the place by these protestors. Most
> of those who have followed them down this rabbit hole have failed to, or
> just refused to, dissociate themselves from these people or their views.
> There are very few people out there saying that these people don?t
> represent them. Most who disagree with these views have long ago left the
> protest site.
>
> Their objectives when they arrived in Ottawa were to sign an MOU with the
> Governor-General and the unelected Senate of the country to overthrow
> Parliament. They were funded by donations that came mostly from outside the
> country, mostly by Americans.
>
> These facts are not in dispute.
>
> Now I strongly believe in the right to protest. I understand people who are
> frustrated by public health restrictions but the idea that a group of
> people who broke hundreds of laws, who occupied the capital untouched for
> THREE WEEKS and set up bouncy castles and hit tubs are somehow ?living in a
> tyranny? is an insult to the vast numbers of humans who struggle against
> oppression, genocide, and repression all over the world INCLUDING those who
> are arrested and brutalized defending their own Indigenous territories here
> in Canada today.
>
> Open space is about passion bounded by responsibility. It acknowledges that
> you have the ability to create conversation and to take responsibility for
> what you care about.
>
> And so I canno longer let these messages on this list pass by without
> taking the responsibility to point out that defense of these protestors and
> especially the characterization of the racists and white supremacists in
> the group as a few bad apples is deeply offensive to the hundreds of people
> of colour, Jews, Muslims, LGBTQ and indigenous people on this list. I beg
> of you that you reflect on who you are taking to in this forum and pause
> for some self-reflection.
>
> There is simply no place in the world to ?yes but? when it comes to these
> ideas. If you passionately feel that you should be allowed to hate, or
> support and defend the right to promote hate, then that is you certainly
> have a right. But I have a responsibility to point out the company you are
> keeping and to denounce you.
>
> Mark, I firmly believe that you have not understood the essence of Open
> Space and your misunderstanding or willful ignorance of this situation
> leading conflation of what we are doing in the world as facilitators with
> the hate being spouted in Ottawa is deeply offensive.
>
> I?m pointing this out to you and asking you to stop dragging Open Space
> into this. I find your opinions inaccurate, untrustworthy, and intolerant.
> There are many ways we can discuss freedom without defending fascists. But
> if you insist on defending fascists I will speak up against you and defend
> the dignity and rights of humans to live free from hate. I am anti-fascist
> and anti-racist and I won?t let these ideas stand unchallenged.
>
> Chris.
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 18, 2022 at 10:05 AM Glenn Waters via OSList <
> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>
> > Enough of the nazi crap, please. I can't answer if you've misunderstood
> > something but let me share some facts about what is going on.
> >
> > In general this is a peaceful group of people. There are however a number
> > of people attending that are not peaceful. They harass, assault
> (physically
> > and verbally), and torment people who live in this area.
> >
> > A large portion of the downtown is closed because it has been taken over.
> > This is having real affect on those businesses that are already hanging
> on
> > by their fingernails to stay in business.
> >
> > For the residents living in this area the only two nearby grocery stores
> > have closed because they fear for the safety of their staff. Many other
> > stores and restaurants are closed for safety reasons.
> >
> > Nazi flags have been flown, as have other symbols that are commonly
> > associated with hate and supremacy.
> >
> > Well documented leaders of white supremacists groups are attending. This
> > does appear to be the minority, but I don't have data. Some have been
> > arrested in the last few days.
> >
> > Shifting to opinion.
> >
> > I don't think of what is happening a few kilometres from my home as a
> > protest anymore. It is an occupation that is taking away from the
> freedoms
> > of those who choose to live and work in Ottawa.
> >
> > The occupiers assets are not being seized. They are being frozen. As this
> > is an occupation I am perfectly fine that.
> >
> > The occupiers are incoherent. When asked about their demands it ranges
> > from "Freedom." to "We want to take over the government." There is little
> > substantiation behind any of the remarks. Most engagements with the
> > occupiers does not result in any understanding of what they actually
> want.
> > My understanding is that the original premise of the protests was around
> > don't force us to be vaccinated, wear masks, or have to have/show a
> vaccine
> > passport.
> >
> > I say go ahead and protest. That is your right and I believe in and
> > support those rights. Occupation is not on.
> >
> > On Fri, Feb 18, 2022, at 11:56, Mark Carmel via OSList wrote:
> >
> > I have tried my best to bite my lip Regarding the dude's comment that all
> > of the truckers must be white supremest nazi types ... What a ridiculous
> > belief... that's being fed by the fake news that paints every Person
> > protesting for Freedom as a white supremest. Yeah, Total BS.... We are
> > open space technology facilitators we believe in freedom ... right? Or
> have
> > I misunderstood something? And what did Canada decide to do? They
> decided
> > to go and seize the bank accounts and the crypto wallets of the
> > protesters.. Now what sounds more like nazi tactics, protesting for
> > freedom or seizing people's bank accounts without a trial?
> > _______________________________________________
> > OSList mailing list
> > To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
> > To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
> > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
> > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
> > Past archives can be viewed here:
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OSList mailing list
> > To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
> > To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
> > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
> > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
> > Past archives can be viewed here:
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>
>
>
> --
> ---
> CHRIS CORRIGAN
> Blog and resources: http://www.chriscorrigan.com
> Harvest Moon Consultants: https://www.harvestmoonconsultants.com
>
> Located on Nex?wle?lex?wm (Bowen Island), Sk?wx?wu?7mesh territory,
>
>
>
> --
> ---
> CHRIS CORRIGAN
> Blog and resources: http://www.chriscorrigan.com
> Harvest Moon Consultants: https://www.harvestmoonconsultants.com
>
> Located on Nex?wle?lex?wm (Bowen Island), Sk?wx?wu?7mesh territory,
> -------------- next part --------------
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> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 18:31:55 +0000
> From: paul levy <paul at cats3000.net>
> To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
> <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
> Subject: Re: [OSList] What could dialogue look like between people of
> Russia and people of the West?
> Message-ID:
> <CAAnJsbAntNN62RhqBVMt72o25evVobw7R=
> HMNwwxuEJT_j8mnA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Wonderful thought, Lucas.
>
> I think the leading thought of Marvin Weisbord comes in here as a possible
> invitational thought: Discovering Common Ground.
>
> Warm wishes,
>
> Paul
>
> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022, 17:35 Lucas Cioffi via OSList, <
> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>
> > Dear OSLIST,
> >
> >
> > Does anyone want to try opening up some dialogue channels between the
> > people of Russia and the people of the West? It's way too late to affect
> > the current situation in Ukraine, but dialogue could be helpful for the
> > long term.
> >
> >
> > I believe that if the people speak with each other directly
> > and (eventually) on a large enough scale, then there is a strong chance
> for
> > understanding to be built, less us-vs.-them thinking, and that would give
> > political leaders flexibility to choose options other than war to solve
> big
> > problems.
> >
> >
> > It doesn't look like many are doing anything like this yet. With a quick
> > Google search I could only find the Carnegie Moscow Center
> > <
> https://carnegiemoscow.org/specialprojects/relaunchingusrussiadialogueonglobalchallenges/?lang=en>
> as
> > an organization interested in a participatory US-Russia dialogue.
> >
> >
> > Assuming there was an unlimited budget, how could a dialogue be designed?
> > Is anyone interested in working on something like this?
> >
> >
> > Lucas Cioffi
> > _______________________________________________
> > OSList mailing list
> > To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
> > To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
> > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
> > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
> > Past archives can be viewed here:
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
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> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 18:36:48 +0000
> From: Romy Shovelton <romy.shovelton at gmail.com>
> To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
> <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
> Subject: Re: [OSList] What could dialogue look like between people of
> Russia and people of the West?
> Message-ID: <35B01A56-B6B2-4A88-84DA-C61E121CEBCD at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I love your idea Lucas?? Why not ?! I?m not sure that I?d be a reliable
> partner in the venture?. Being constantly tied up in the daily life of my
> retreat centre?. And I shall certainly applaud from the sidelines and pop
> in from time to time if this happens?.
>
> In deep appreciation
>
> ?
>
> > On 19 Feb 2022, at 18:00, Michael Herman via OSList <
> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
> >
> > I know that this scale of dialogue is what Qiqo was originally built
> for, Lucas. So I'm glad to see you asking this question. I wonder if the
> folks at helena.org <http://helena.org/> would appreciate it. They did a
> small-sample program "American in One Room," a weekend gathering, folks
> flown in from all 50 states, as I recall, in conjunction with the NYTimes
> and some folks at U of Chicago.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > --
> >
> > Michael Herman
> > Michael Herman Associates
> > 312-280-7838 (mobile)
> >
> > MichaelHerman.com <http://michaelherman.com/>
> > OpenSpaceWorld.org <http://openspaceworld.org/>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Feb 19, 2022 at 10:35 AM Lucas Cioffi via OSList <
> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>>
> wrote:
> > Dear OSLIST,
> >
> > Does anyone want to try opening up some dialogue channels between the
> people of Russia and the people of the West? It's way too late to affect
> the current situation in Ukraine, but dialogue could be helpful for the
> long term.
> >
> > I believe that if the people speak with each other directly and
> (eventually) on a large enough scale, then there is a strong chance for
> understanding to be built, less us-vs.-them thinking, and that would give
> political leaders flexibility to choose options other than war to solve big
> problems.
> >
> > It doesn't look like many are doing anything like this yet. With a
> quick Google search I could only find the Carnegie Moscow Center <
> https://carnegiemoscow.org/specialprojects/relaunchingusrussiadialogueonglobalchallenges/?lang=en>
> as an organization interested in a participatory US-Russia dialogue.
> >
> > Assuming there was an unlimited budget, how could a dialogue be
> designed? Is anyone interested in working on something like this?
> >
> > Lucas Cioffi
> > _______________________________________________
> > OSList mailing list
> > To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:
> OSList at lists.openspacetech.org>
> > To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
> <mailto:OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org>
> > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
> > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org <
> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org>
> > Past archives can be viewed here:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org <
> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
> >_______________________________________________
> > OSList mailing list
> > To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
> > To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
> > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
> > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
> > Past archives can be viewed here:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>
> Romy Shovelton
> Executive Director
>
> Wikima & the 5* Tyddyn Retreat
> Mid Wales Venue & Holiday Cottages
> www.walescottageandvenue.com
>
> romy at walescottageandvenue.com
> romy.shovelton at gmail.com
> +44 (0) 7767 370739
>
> Tyddyn y Pwll, Carno, Caersws
> Powys, SY17 5JU, Wales, UK
>
> Instagram: tyddynretreat
> Facebook: Tyddyn Retreat
>
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> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 13:38:38 -0500
> From: David Osborne <dosborne at change-fusion.com>
> To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
> <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
> Subject: Re: [OSList] Canada Conundrum - what do you think - reply to
> nazi comment
> Message-ID:
> <
> CANQfh8_8sLXggWDAX3tGpH-7tNdzKsq5dgtmG3pgsuKRfWPfNQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Thank you Chris for sharing your perspective from a Canadian in the US who
> is not as close to what is actually going on there.
>
> David
>
> On Sat, Feb 19, 2022 at 1:27 PM Chris Corrigan via OSList <
> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>
> >
> > Mark:
> >
> > I have mostly been ignoring your posts around this but I have to speak
> out
> > now.
> >
> > The leaders of the protest in Ottawa who have now been arrested include
> > people who are open, brazen white supremacists, anti-Semites,
> > anti-indigenous. Their views are all over the Internet. There are
> multiple
> > far right and racist groups and leaders in this protest. There are flying
> > their own flags and wearing their colours. They are not hiding. They are
> > not just misunderstood people. They are openly promoting fascism, racism,
> > white supremacy, xenophobia and anti-Senitism. There is an unbelievable
> > amount of hate being spouted all over the place by these protestors.
> Most
> > of those who have followed them down this rabbit hole have failed to, or
> > just refused to, dissociate themselves from these people or their views.
> > There are very few people out there saying that these people don?t
> > represent them. Most who disagree with these views have long ago left the
> > protest site.
> >
> > Their objectives when they arrived in Ottawa were to sign an MOU with the
> > Governor-General and the unelected Senate of the country to overthrow
> > Parliament. They were funded by donations that came mostly from outside
> the
> > country, mostly by Americans.
> >
> > These facts are not in dispute.
> >
> > Now I strongly believe in the right to protest. I understand people who
> > are frustrated by public health restrictions but the idea that a group of
> > people who broke hundreds of laws, who occupied the capital untouched for
> > THREE WEEKS and set up bouncy castles and hit tubs are somehow ?living
> in a
> > tyranny? is an insult to the vast numbers of humans who struggle against
> > oppression, genocide, and repression all over the world INCLUDING those
> who
> > are arrested and brutalized defending their own Indigenous territories
> here
> > in Canada today.
> >
> > Open space is about passion bounded by responsibility. It acknowledges
> > that you have the ability to create conversation and to take
> responsibility
> > for what you care about.
> >
> > And so I canno longer let these messages on this list pass by without
> > taking the responsibility to point out that defense of these protestors
> and
> > especially the characterization of the racists and white supremacists in
> > the group as a few bad apples is deeply offensive to the hundreds of
> people
> > of colour, Jews, Muslims, LGBTQ and indigenous people on this list. I beg
> > of you that you reflect on who you are taking to in this forum and pause
> > for some self-reflection.
> >
> > There is simply no place in the world to ?yes but? when it comes to these
> > ideas. If you passionately feel that you should be allowed to hate, or
> > support and defend the right to promote hate, then that is you certainly
> > have a right. But I have a responsibility to point out the company you
> are
> > keeping and to denounce you.
> >
> > Mark, I firmly believe that you have not understood the essence of Open
> > Space and your misunderstanding or willful ignorance of this situation
> > leading conflation of what we are doing in the world as facilitators with
> > the hate being spouted in Ottawa is deeply offensive.
> >
> > I?m pointing this out to you and asking you to stop dragging Open Space
> > into this. I find your opinions inaccurate, untrustworthy, and
> intolerant.
> > There are many ways we can discuss freedom without defending fascists.
> But
> > if you insist on defending fascists I will speak up against you and
> defend
> > the dignity and rights of humans to live free from hate. I am
> anti-fascist
> > and anti-racist and I won?t let these ideas stand unchallenged.
> >
> > Chris.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Feb 18, 2022 at 10:05 AM Glenn Waters via OSList <
> > oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Enough of the nazi crap, please. I can't answer if you've misunderstood
> >> something but let me share some facts about what is going on.
> >>
> >> In general this is a peaceful group of people. There are however a
> number
> >> of people attending that are not peaceful. They harass, assault
> (physically
> >> and verbally), and torment people who live in this area.
> >>
> >> A large portion of the downtown is closed because it has been taken
> over.
> >> This is having real affect on those businesses that are already hanging
> on
> >> by their fingernails to stay in business.
> >>
> >> For the residents living in this area the only two nearby grocery stores
> >> have closed because they fear for the safety of their staff. Many other
> >> stores and restaurants are closed for safety reasons.
> >>
> >> Nazi flags have been flown, as have other symbols that are commonly
> >> associated with hate and supremacy.
> >>
> >> Well documented leaders of white supremacists groups are attending. This
> >> does appear to be the minority, but I don't have data. Some have been
> >> arrested in the last few days.
> >>
> >> Shifting to opinion.
> >>
> >> I don't think of what is happening a few kilometres from my home as a
> >> protest anymore. It is an occupation that is taking away from the
> freedoms
> >> of those who choose to live and work in Ottawa.
> >>
> >> The occupiers assets are not being seized. They are being frozen. As
> this
> >> is an occupation I am perfectly fine that.
> >>
> >> The occupiers are incoherent. When asked about their demands it ranges
> >> from "Freedom." to "We want to take over the government." There is
> little
> >> substantiation behind any of the remarks. Most engagements with the
> >> occupiers does not result in any understanding of what they actually
> want.
> >> My understanding is that the original premise of the protests was around
> >> don't force us to be vaccinated, wear masks, or have to have/show a
> vaccine
> >> passport.
> >>
> >> I say go ahead and protest. That is your right and I believe in and
> >> support those rights. Occupation is not on.
> >>
> >> On Fri, Feb 18, 2022, at 11:56, Mark Carmel via OSList wrote:
> >>
> >> I have tried my best to bite my lip Regarding the dude's comment that
> all
> >> of the truckers must be white supremest nazi types ... What a ridiculous
> >> belief... that's being fed by the fake news that paints every Person
> >> protesting for Freedom as a white supremest. Yeah, Total BS.... We are
> >> open space technology facilitators we believe in freedom ... right? Or
> have
> >> I misunderstood something? And what did Canada decide to do? They
> decided
> >> to go and seize the bank accounts and the crypto wallets of the
> >> protesters.. Now what sounds more like nazi tactics, protesting for
> >> freedom or seizing people's bank accounts without a trial?
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> OSList mailing list
> >> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
> >> To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
> >> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
> >> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
> >> Past archives can be viewed here:
> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> OSList mailing list
> >> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
> >> To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
> >> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
> >> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
> >> Past archives can be viewed here:
> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > ---
> > CHRIS CORRIGAN
> > Blog and resources: http://www.chriscorrigan.com
> > Harvest Moon Consultants: https://www.harvestmoonconsultants.com
> >
> > Located on Nex?wle?lex?wm (Bowen Island), Sk?wx?wu?7mesh territory,
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > ---
> > CHRIS CORRIGAN
> > Blog and resources: http://www.chriscorrigan.com
> > Harvest Moon Consultants: https://www.harvestmoonconsultants.com
> >
> > Located on Nex?wle?lex?wm (Bowen Island), Sk?wx?wu?7mesh territory,
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OSList mailing list
> > To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
> > To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
> > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
> > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
> > Past archives can be viewed here:
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
> -------------- next part --------------
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> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 18:39:49 +0000
> From: Romy Shovelton <romy.shovelton at gmail.com>
> To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
> <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
> Subject: Re: [OSList] Canada Conundrum - what do you think - reply to
> nazi comment
> Message-ID: <E34AC413-CDD7-4F91-90B0-8161F5CA71DE at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I find this whole thread of hate that has emanated from your words on this
> OSLIST Mark, DEEPLY upsetting and so antithetical to all that the OS
> community holds dear and practices in life. Can we please end this now. It
> has no place here. Please express your thoughts elsewhere if you need to.
>
> Thank you
>
> Romy
>
> > On 19 Feb 2022, at 18:27, Chris Corrigan via OSList <
> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Mark:
> >
> > I have mostly been ignoring your posts around this but I have to speak
> out now.
> >
> > The leaders of the protest in Ottawa who have now been arrested include
> people who are open, brazen white supremacists, anti-Semites,
> anti-indigenous. Their views are all over the Internet. There are multiple
> far right and racist groups and leaders in this protest. There are flying
> their own flags and wearing their colours. They are not hiding. They are
> not just misunderstood people. They are openly promoting fascism, racism,
> white supremacy, xenophobia and anti-Senitism. There is an unbelievable
> amount of hate being spouted all over the place by these protestors. Most
> of those who have followed them down this rabbit hole have failed to, or
> just refused to, dissociate themselves from these people or their views.
> There are very few people out there saying that these people don?t
> represent them. Most who disagree with these views have long ago left the
> protest site.
> >
> > Their objectives when they arrived in Ottawa were to sign an MOU with
> the Governor-General and the unelected Senate of the country to overthrow
> Parliament. They were funded by donations that came mostly from outside the
> country, mostly by Americans.
> >
> > These facts are not in dispute.
> >
> > Now I strongly believe in the right to protest. I understand people who
> are frustrated by public health restrictions but the idea that a group of
> people who broke hundreds of laws, who occupied the capital untouched for
> THREE WEEKS and set up bouncy castles and hit tubs are somehow ?living in a
> tyranny? is an insult to the vast numbers of humans who struggle against
> oppression, genocide, and repression all over the world INCLUDING those who
> are arrested and brutalized defending their own Indigenous territories here
> in Canada today.
> >
> > Open space is about passion bounded by responsibility. It acknowledges
> that you have the ability to create conversation and to take responsibility
> for what you care about.
> >
> > And so I canno longer let these messages on this list pass by without
> taking the responsibility to point out that defense of these protestors and
> especially the characterization of the racists and white supremacists in
> the group as a few bad apples is deeply offensive to the hundreds of people
> of colour, Jews, Muslims, LGBTQ and indigenous people on this list. I beg
> of you that you reflect on who you are taking to in this forum and pause
> for some self-reflection.
> >
> > There is simply no place in the world to ?yes but? when it comes to
> these ideas. If you passionately feel that you should be allowed to hate,
> or support and defend the right to promote hate, then that is you certainly
> have a right. But I have a responsibility to point out the company you are
> keeping and to denounce you.
> >
> > Mark, I firmly believe that you have not understood the essence of Open
> Space and your misunderstanding or willful ignorance of this situation
> leading conflation of what we are doing in the world as facilitators with
> the hate being spouted in Ottawa is deeply offensive.
> >
> > I?m pointing this out to you and asking you to stop dragging Open Space
> into this. I find your opinions inaccurate, untrustworthy, and intolerant.
> There are many ways we can discuss freedom without defending fascists. But
> if you insist on defending fascists I will speak up against you and defend
> the dignity and rights of humans to live free from hate. I am anti-fascist
> and anti-racist and I won?t let these ideas stand unchallenged.
> >
> > Chris.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Feb 18, 2022 at 10:05 AM Glenn Waters via OSList <
> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>>
> wrote:
> > Enough of the nazi crap, please. I can't answer if you've misunderstood
> something but let me share some facts about what is going on.
> >
> > In general this is a peaceful group of people. There are however a
> number of people attending that are not peaceful. They harass, assault
> (physically and verbally), and torment people who live in this area.
> >
> > A large portion of the downtown is closed because it has been taken
> over. This is having real affect on those businesses that are already
> hanging on by their fingernails to stay in business.
> >
> > For the residents living in this area the only two nearby grocery stores
> have closed because they fear for the safety of their staff. Many other
> stores and restaurants are closed for safety reasons.
> >
> > Nazi flags have been flown, as have other symbols that are commonly
> associated with hate and supremacy.
> >
> > Well documented leaders of white supremacists groups are attending. This
> does appear to be the minority, but I don't have data. Some have been
> arrested in the last few days.
> >
> > Shifting to opinion.
> >
> > I don't think of what is happening a few kilometres from my home as a
> protest anymore. It is an occupation that is taking away from the freedoms
> of those who choose to live and work in Ottawa.
> >
> > The occupiers assets are not being seized. They are being frozen. As
> this is an occupation I am perfectly fine that.
> >
> > The occupiers are incoherent. When asked about their demands it ranges
> from "Freedom." to "We want to take over the government." There is little
> substantiation behind any of the remarks. Most engagements with the
> occupiers does not result in any understanding of what they actually want.
> My understanding is that the original premise of the protests was around
> don't force us to be vaccinated, wear masks, or have to have/show a vaccine
> passport.
> >
> > I say go ahead and protest. That is your right and I believe in and
> support those rights. Occupation is not on.
> >
> > On Fri, Feb 18, 2022, at 11:56, Mark Carmel via OSList wrote:
> >> I have tried my best to bite my lip Regarding the dude's comment that
> all of the truckers must be white supremest nazi types ... What a
> ridiculous belief... that's being fed by the fake news that paints every
> Person protesting for Freedom as a white supremest. Yeah, Total BS.... We
> are open space technology facilitators we believe in freedom ... right? Or
> have I misunderstood something? And what did Canada decide to do? They
> decided to go and seize the bank accounts and the crypto wallets of the
> protesters.. Now what sounds more like nazi tactics, protesting for
> freedom or seizing people's bank accounts without a trial?
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> OSList mailing list
> >> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:
> OSList at lists.openspacetech.org>
> >> To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
> <mailto:OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org>
> >> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
> >> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org <
> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org>
> >> Past archives can be viewed here:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org <
> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org>
> >
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2022 11:20:05 -0800
> From: John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com>
> To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
> <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
> Subject: Re: [OSList] Canada Conundrum - what do you think - reply to
> nazi comment
> Message-ID: <0D017F55-D74A-4837-9BEB-671CAD08BF45 at mac.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Thank-you, Chris, for your passion, your eloquence, and your facts.
>
> John W
>
> Sent from John's iPhone
>
> > On Feb 19, 2022, at 10:27 AM, Chris Corrigan via OSList <
> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
> >
> > ?
> >
> > Mark:
> >
> > I have mostly been ignoring your posts around this but I have to speak
> out now.
> >
> > The leaders of the protest in Ottawa who have now been arrested include
> people who are open, brazen white supremacists, anti-Semites,
> anti-indigenous. Their views are all over the Internet. There are multiple
> far right and racist groups and leaders in this protest. There are flying
> their own flags and wearing their colours. They are not hiding. They are
> not just misunderstood people. They are openly promoting fascism, racism,
> white supremacy, xenophobia and anti-Senitism. There is an unbelievable
> amount of hate being spouted all over the place by these protestors. Most
> of those who have followed them down this rabbit hole have failed to, or
> just refused to, dissociate themselves from these people or their views.
> There are very few people out there saying that these people don?t
> represent them. Most who disagree with these views have long ago left the
> protest site.
> >
> > Their objectives when they arrived in Ottawa were to sign an MOU with
> the Governor-General and the unelected Senate of the country to overthrow
> Parliament. They were funded by donations that came mostly from outside the
> country, mostly by Americans.
> >
> > These facts are not in dispute.
> >
> > Now I strongly believe in the right to protest. I understand people who
> are frustrated by public health restrictions but the idea that a group of
> people who broke hundreds of laws, who occupied the capital untouched for
> THREE WEEKS and set up bouncy castles and hit tubs are somehow ?living in a
> tyranny? is an insult to the vast numbers of humans who struggle against
> oppression, genocide, and repression all over the world INCLUDING those who
> are arrested and brutalized defending their own Indigenous territories here
> in Canada today.
> >
> > Open space is about passion bounded by responsibility. It acknowledges
> that you have the ability to create conversation and to take responsibility
> for what you care about.
> >
> > And so I canno longer let these messages on this list pass by without
> taking the responsibility to point out that defense of these protestors and
> especially the characterization of the racists and white supremacists in
> the group as a few bad apples is deeply offensive to the hundreds of people
> of colour, Jews, Muslims, LGBTQ and indigenous people on this list. I beg
> of you that you reflect on who you are taking to in this forum and pause
> for some self-reflection.
> >
> > There is simply no place in the world to ?yes but? when it comes to
> these ideas. If you passionately feel that you should be allowed to hate,
> or support and defend the right to promote hate, then that is you certainly
> have a right. But I have a responsibility to point out the company you are
> keeping and to denounce you.
> >
> > Mark, I firmly believe that you have not understood the essence of Open
> Space and your misunderstanding or willful ignorance of this situation
> leading conflation of what we are doing in the world as facilitators with
> the hate being spouted in Ottawa is deeply offensive.
> >
> > I?m pointing this out to you and asking you to stop dragging Open Space
> into this. I find your opinions inaccurate, untrustworthy, and intolerant.
> There are many ways we can discuss freedom without defending fascists. But
> if you insist on defending fascists I will speak up against you and defend
> the dignity and rights of humans to live free from hate. I am anti-fascist
> and anti-racist and I won?t let these ideas stand unchallenged.
> >
> > Chris.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Fri, Feb 18, 2022 at 10:05 AM Glenn Waters via OSList <
> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
> >> Enough of the nazi crap, please. I can't answer if you've misunderstood
> something but let me share some facts about what is going on.
> >>
> >> In general this is a peaceful group of people. There are however a
> number of people attending that are not peaceful. They harass, assault
> (physically and verbally), and torment people who live in this area.
> >>
> >> A large portion of the downtown is closed because it has been taken
> over. This is having real affect on those businesses that are already
> hanging on by their fingernails to stay in business.
> >>
> >> For the residents living in this area the only two nearby grocery
> stores have closed because they fear for the safety of their staff. Many
> other stores and restaurants are closed for safety reasons.
> >>
> >> Nazi flags have been flown, as have other symbols that are commonly
> associated with hate and supremacy.
> >>
> >> Well documented leaders of white supremacists groups are attending.
> This does appear to be the minority, but I don't have data. Some have been
> arrested in the last few days.
> >>
> >> Shifting to opinion.
> >>
> >> I don't think of what is happening a few kilometres from my home as a
> protest anymore. It is an occupation that is taking away from the freedoms
> of those who choose to
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