[OSList] Swarmwise; how to organise community like a Wave Riding Pirate

Thu Oct 16 20:48:33 PDT 2014

Thank you everyone for your wisdom from other fields!

I did wonder with the veto process, why it didn't require the same "3
pirate" rule as elsewhere - to me it is the same sort of decision, and the
same logic applies: any serious objection should be able to find two others
supporters for the veto.  (e.g. personally, I would always support a veto
if I thought the reasons for it were not addressed...)

I guess those with the experience know what works... though I suspect
people are smart enough to also work around minor tweaks in much the same
way.

Cheers

*John Baxter*
*CoCreate Adelaide Facilitator, Director of Realise consultancy*
CoCreateADL.com <http://cocreateadl.com/localgov%E2%80%8B> |
jsbaxter.com.au <http://www.jsbaxter.com.au/>
0405 447 829
 | 
@jsbaxter_ <http://twitter.com/jsbaxter_>

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On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 2:43 AM, Eiwor Backelund via OSList <
oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:

> In the Genuine Contact community we use the Five to fold decision making
> process, which seems a little similar to the consensus by veto process.
> What differs is the talking rounds asking clarifying questions and voicing
> opinions before moving to the decision. If the sponsors of the proposal
> hear many opposing voices they can withdraw their proposal or change it
> before moving to voting. The voting is done with your hand showing with
> your fingers the energy you have for the proposal. It is also possible to
> fold and by that stop the proposal if you feel that it will harm the
> organization deeply. We have experienced a few folds and often it is only
> one person who sees the things that others can´t see but afterwards we have
> found that those folds were actually supporting the organization, even if
> they at the time they were made, caused frustration for the sponsors.
>
> I don´t see why blocking from a small number should be less valued than
> blocking from a large number, because that already takes us back to the
> majority voting. One person can have the important knowledge that is
> missing from the rest of the group, even in large groups. But then I also
> have a lot of prejudices about consensus decisions J, this technique has
> been used for a long time here in Sweden and it has meant that you are
> supposed to adjust to the people who “knows best” because otherwise we will
> never be able to get things done or leave the meeting room to go home.
>
> When I read about the Occupy DC Facilitation Committee what I see is that
> they used a method they thought would be in line with their beliefs but
> then created ways around that method because they wanted it their way.
> Which leads back to the work on Argyris and Schön on espoused theory and
> theory in use. We say and also think we do things in a certain way but very
> often, without us being aware of it, we do in another way that protects
> ourselves more.
>
> Blessings
>
> Eiwor
>
>
>
> *Från:* OSList [mailto:oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org] *För *Kári
> Gunnarsson via OSList
> *Skickat:* den 16 oktober 2014 17:04
> *Till:* Lucas Cioffi; World wide Open Space Technology email list
> *Ämne:* Re: [OSList] Swarmwise; how to organise community like a Wave
> Riding Pirate
>
>
>
> From the book: "... you can say that everybody has the power of veto for
> decisions [...] However, it only works well for smaller subgroups (30
> or less people).  ..."
>
> The book also talks a lot about is the consensus circle
>
> THE MAGIC OF THE CONSENSUS CIRCLE
>
> One good mechanism for arriving at a decision in a (defined) group
> is called a consensus circle. ... p. 165
>
>
>
> On 16 October 2014 13:07, Lucas Cioffi via OSList <
> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>
> Hello Thomas,
>
>
>
> "Consensus by veto" means anything that is not vetoed is treated as
> consensus.  The occupy movement made decisions this way.  People could give
> several hand signals to indicate their sentiment when someone else was
> talking without having to talk over them.  Here's a list on Wikipedia of Occupy
> movement's and signals
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_movement_hand_signals>.
>
>
>
> You'll see a hand signal for "hard block" which means the listener is
> hearing something morally objectionable (i.e. they are vetoing it).  By
> defining consensus as "Not morally objectionable" (i.e. not vetoed) the
> Occupy Movement was able to approve more member actions/initiatives than if
> they went with "universally agreed upon" as their definition of consensus,
> because their members were eclectic and unlikely to agree 100% on
> everything.
>
>
>
> I witnessed that OccupyDC's Facilitation Committee would change the
> operational definition of consensus as the months went by so that even 1 or
> 2 vetoes were still seen as consensus when they wanted to have fewer
> roadblocks from their own members.  So the veto number is variable as a
> facilitation technique.
>
> --
>
> Lucas Cioffi
>
> Co-Founder, QiqoChat.com <http://qiqochat.com/>
>
> Charlottesville, VA
>
> 917-528-1831
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 8:32 AM, Thomas Perret via OSList <
> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>
> Thanks John, great. I read your notes and this one raised a question:
>
>
>
> "for necessary decisions (e.g. directing group resources), 'consensus' by
> veto is better than democratic decision-making by majority vote"
>
>
>
> What do you/the book mean by "consensus by veto" here?
>
>
>
> Thomas
>
>
>
>
>
> On Oct 16, 2014, at 3:51 AM, John Baxter via OSList <
> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hello Wave Riders
>
>
>
> I've just finished reading Swarmwise, the tactical manual for organising
> community like a Pirate (i.e. Sweden's Pirate Party).
>
>
>
> Open Space methods are threaded through it, both overtly and implicitly.
> I thought it was an excellent vindication of the hunch that Open Space can
> be applied in very specific ways to processes much bigger than single
> events.
>
>
>
> I did have an initial reaction to how strong the influence of the
> individual leader-champion is.  But I came to the conclusion that sort of
> leadership fits the given objectives, and is no different than the sponsor
> setting the topic in OST.
>
> So a heads up, you may have the same averse reaction to ego-centric
> language that I did... but please forgive it in order to see the wisdom
> within.
>
>
>
> Recommended reading for all Wave Riders: Swarmwise
> <http://falkvinge.net/2013/02/14/swarmwise-the-tactical-manual-to-changing-the-world-chapter-one/>
> .
>
>
>
> Also if of interest, my notes
> <http://www.evernote.com/shard/s133/sh/265720ee-aa87-4377-9508-d191d48a966a/3ad0177a6c8434e45420dba77f54ff61>
>  (*not a permalink*)
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
>
>
> *John Baxter*
>
> ***Co****Create Adelaide Facilitator, Director of Realise* *consultancy*
>
> CoCreateADL.com <http://cocreateadl.com/localgov%E2%80%8B> |
> jsbaxter.com.au <http://www.jsbaxter.com.au/>
>
> 0405 447 829
>
>  | 
>
> @jsbaxter_ <http://twitter.com/jsbaxter_>
>
>
>
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> --
>
> Kári Gunnarsson markþjálfi
> kari.gunnarsson at simnet.is
> https://www.facebook.com/heimsmynd
> (+354) 864 5189
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