<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif;color:#444444">Thank you everyone for your wisdom from other fields!</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif;color:#444444"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif;color:#444444">I did wonder with the veto process, why it didn't require the same "3 pirate" rule as elsewhere - to me it is the same sort of decision, and the same logic applies: any serious objection should be able to find two others supporters for the veto. (e.g. personally, I would always support a veto if I thought the reasons for it were not addressed...)<br><br>I guess those with the experience know what works... though I suspect people are smart enough to also work around minor tweaks in much the same way.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif;color:#444444"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif;color:#444444">Cheers</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr"><br><div><div style="font-family:arial;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-size:small"><font color="#663300" face="'trebuchet ms', sans-serif"><b><i>John Baxter</i></b></font></div><div style="text-align:-webkit-auto;font-size:small;font-family:'trebuchet ms',sans-serif;color:rgb(68,68,68)"><i>CoCreate Adelaide Facilitator, Director of Realise consultancy</i></div><div style="text-align:-webkit-auto;font-size:small;font-family:'trebuchet ms',sans-serif;color:rgb(68,68,68)"><a href="http://cocreateadl.com/localgov%E2%80%8B" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">CoCreateADL.com</a> | <a href="http://www.jsbaxter.com.au/" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">jsbaxter.com.au</a></div><div style="font-family:arial;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-size:small"><font color="#444444" face="'trebuchet ms', sans-serif">0405 447 829</font><div style="font-family:'trebuchet ms',sans-serif;color:rgb(68,68,68);display:inline"><font color="#444444" face="'trebuchet ms', sans-serif"> | </font></div><span style="color:rgb(68,68,68);font-family:'trebuchet ms',sans-serif">@</span><a href="http://twitter.com/jsbaxter_" style="color:rgb(17,85,204);font-family:'trebuchet ms',sans-serif" target="_blank">jsbaxter_</a></div><div style="font-family:arial;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-size:small"><br></div><div style="font-family:arial;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-size:small"><i><b><a href="http://citygrill.eventbrite.com.au" target="_blank">City Grill— An Election Forum More Magnificent Than Any Ever Seen</a>!</b>, Saturday 18 October 2014<br>Connect with your candidates, get your voice heard by joining with others in your community, and Influence the future of the city</i></div></div><div style="font-family:arial;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-size:small"><i><br></i></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 2:43 AM, Eiwor Backelund via OSList <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org" target="_blank">oslist@lists.openspacetech.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang="SV" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">In the Genuine Contact community we use the Five to fold decision making process, which seems a little similar to the consensus by veto process. What differs is the talking rounds asking clarifying questions and voicing opinions before moving to the decision. If the sponsors of the proposal hear many opposing voices they can withdraw their proposal or change it before moving to voting. The voting is done with your hand showing with your fingers the energy you have for the proposal. It is also possible to fold and by that stop the proposal if you feel that it will harm the organization deeply. We have experienced a few folds and often it is only one person who sees the things that others can´t see but afterwards we have found that those folds were actually supporting the organization, even if they at the time they were made, caused frustration for the sponsors. <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I don´t see why blocking from a small number should be less valued than blocking from a large number, because that already takes us back to the majority voting. One person can have the important knowledge that is missing from the rest of the group, even in large groups. But then I also have a lot of prejudices about consensus decisions </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1f497d">J</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">, this technique has been used for a long time here in Sweden and it has meant that you are supposed to adjust to the people who “knows best” because otherwise we will never be able to get things done or leave the meeting room to go home. <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">When I read about the Occupy DC Facilitation Committee what I see is that they used a method they thought would be in line with their beliefs but then created ways around that method because they wanted it their way. Which leads back to the work on Argyris and Schön on espoused theory and theory in use. We say and also think we do things in a certain way but very often, without us being aware of it, we do in another way that protects ourselves more. <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Blessings<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Eiwor <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><a name="14919bf301c4c300__MailEndCompose"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></a></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Från:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> OSList [mailto:<a href="mailto:oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org" target="_blank">oslist-bounces@lists.openspacetech.org</a>] <b>För </b>Kári Gunnarsson via OSList<br><b>Skickat:</b> den 16 oktober 2014 17:04<br><b>Till:</b> Lucas Cioffi; World wide Open Space Technology email list<br><b>Ämne:</b> Re: [OSList] Swarmwise; how to organise community like a Wave Riding Pirate<u></u><u></u></span></p><div><div class="h5"><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">From the book: "... you can say that everybody has the power of veto for decisions [...] However, it only works well for smaller subgroups (30<br>or less people). ..." <u></u><u></u></p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">The book also talks a lot about is the consensus circle<br><br>THE MAGIC OF THE CONSENSUS CIRCLE<br><br>One good mechanism for arriving at a decision in a (defined) group<br>is called a consensus circle. ... p. 165<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">On 16 October 2014 13:07, Lucas Cioffi via OSList <<a href="mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org" target="_blank">oslist@lists.openspacetech.org</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><div><p class="MsoNormal">Hello Thomas,<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">"Consensus by veto" means anything that is not vetoed is treated as consensus. The occupy movement made decisions this way. People could give several hand signals to indicate their sentiment when someone else was talking without having to talk over them. Here's a list on Wikipedia of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_movement_hand_signals" target="_blank">Occupy movement's and signals</a>.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">You'll see a hand signal for "hard block" which means the listener is hearing something morally objectionable (i.e. they are vetoing it). By defining consensus as "Not morally objectionable" (i.e. not vetoed) the Occupy Movement was able to approve more member actions/initiatives than if they went with "universally agreed upon" as their definition of consensus, because their members were eclectic and unlikely to agree 100% on everything. <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">I witnessed that OccupyDC's Facilitation Committee would change the operational definition of consensus as the months went by so that even 1 or 2 vetoes were still seen as consensus when they wanted to have fewer roadblocks from their own members. So the veto number is variable as a facilitation technique.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">-- <u></u><u></u></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Lucas Cioffi<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Co-Founder, <span style="color:blue"><a href="http://qiqochat.com/" target="_blank">QiqoChat.com</a></span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Charlottesville, VA<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><a href="tel:917-528-1831" target="_blank">917-528-1831</a><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 8:32 AM, Thomas Perret via OSList <<a href="mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org" target="_blank">oslist@lists.openspacetech.org</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Thanks John, great. I read your notes and this one raised a question:<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">"for necessary decisions (e.g. directing group resources), 'consensus' by veto is better than democratic decision-making by majority vote"<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">What do you/the book mean by "consensus by veto" here?<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Thomas<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Oct 16, 2014, at 3:51 AM, John Baxter via OSList <<a href="mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org" target="_blank">oslist@lists.openspacetech.org</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#444444">Hello Wave Riders<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#444444"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#444444">I've just finished reading Swarmwise, the tactical manual for organising community like a Pirate (i.e. Sweden's Pirate Party).<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#444444"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#444444">Open Space methods are threaded through it, both overtly and implicitly. I thought it was an excellent vindication of the hunch that Open Space can be applied in very specific ways to processes much bigger than single events.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#444444"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#444444">I did have an initial reaction to how strong the influence of the individual leader-champion is. But I came to the conclusion that sort of leadership fits the given objectives, and is no different than the sponsor setting the topic in OST.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#444444">So a heads up, you may have the same averse reaction to ego-centric language that I did... but please forgive it in order to see the wisdom within.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#444444"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#444444">Recommended reading for all Wave Riders: <a href="http://falkvinge.net/2013/02/14/swarmwise-the-tactical-manual-to-changing-the-world-chapter-one/" target="_blank">Swarmwise</a>.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#444444"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#444444">Also if of interest, <a href="http://www.evernote.com/shard/s133/sh/265720ee-aa87-4377-9508-d191d48a966a/3ad0177a6c8434e45420dba77f54ff61" target="_blank">my notes</a> (<i>not a permalink</i>)<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#444444"></span><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#444444">Cheers</span><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#444444"></span><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#444444"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#663300">John Baxter</span></i></b><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#444444"></span></i><i><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#444444">Co</span></i><i><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#444444"></span></i><i><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#444444">Create Adelaide Facilitator, Director of Realise</span></i><i><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#444444"> </span></i><i><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#444444">consultancy</span></i><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#444444"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#444444"><a href="http://cocreateadl.com/localgov%E2%80%8B" target="_blank"><span style="color:#1155cc">CoCreateADL.com</span><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1155cc"></span></a> | <a href="http://www.jsbaxter.com.au/" target="_blank"><span style="color:#1155cc">jsbaxter.com.au</span></a><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#444444">0405 447 829</span><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><u></u><u></u></span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#444444"></span><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#444444"> | </span><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#444444"></span><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#444444"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#444444">@</span><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><a href="http://twitter.com/jsbaxter_" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1155cc">jsbaxter_</span></a><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>OSList mailing list<br>To post send emails to <a href="mailto:OSList@lists.openspacetech.org" target="_blank">OSList@lists.openspacetech.org</a><br>To unsubscribe send an email to <a href="mailto:OSList-leave@lists.openspacetech.org" target="_blank">OSList-leave@lists.openspacetech.org</a><br>To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:<br><a href="http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org" target="_blank">http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org</a><u></u><u></u></p></blockquote></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">_______________________________________________<br>OSList mailing list<br>To post send emails to <a href="mailto:OSList@lists.openspacetech.org" target="_blank">OSList@lists.openspacetech.org</a><br>To unsubscribe send an email to <a href="mailto:OSList-leave@lists.openspacetech.org" target="_blank">OSList-leave@lists.openspacetech.org</a><br>To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:<br><a href="http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org" target="_blank">http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org</a><u></u><u></u></p></blockquote></div><p class="MsoNormal"><br><br clear="all"><u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>_______________________________________________<br>OSList mailing list<br>To post send emails to <a href="mailto:OSList@lists.openspacetech.org" target="_blank">OSList@lists.openspacetech.org</a><br>To unsubscribe send an email to <a href="mailto:OSList-leave@lists.openspacetech.org" target="_blank">OSList-leave@lists.openspacetech.org</a><br>To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:<br><a href="http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org" target="_blank">http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org</a><u></u><u></u></p></blockquote></div><p class="MsoNormal"><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">Kári Gunnarsson markþjálfi<br><a href="mailto:kari.gunnarsson@simnet.is" target="_blank">kari.gunnarsson@simnet.is</a><br><a href="https://www.facebook.com/heimsmynd" target="_blank">https://www.facebook.com/heimsmynd</a><br><a href="tel:%28%2B354%29%20864%205189" value="+3548645189" target="_blank">(+354) 864 5189</a><u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
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