[OSList] The OST Game

Michael Herman michael at michaelherman.com
Wed Oct 9 14:00:52 PDT 2013


whoops, was responding on my phone and took an inadvertent shortcut when i
said, "...that's great to say OST is a game cuz..."  that said, and given
this history with alistair's metaphor and the churning in the agile
community, it makes a lot of sense that the metaphor of ost as a game is
useful in agile circles.  i'm not sure i see the value in suggesting more
generally that the metaphor of ost as a game works universally.

you've shared some history about agile, and the ost community isn't very
different in some ways, i think.  for fifteen years, i've been describing
ost as a practice in invitation, and it's only recently that i thought the
invitation dimension was getting the attention it deserves.  harrison's
been describing ost as an example of self-organization at least that many
years and i know i almost never describe it to potential clients that way.
 it's just not my story.  so if there's some skepticism about "game" here,
know that it's only just scratching the surface of what's been said and
questioned about the self-org story, and others.  i'm sure others who've
been around here a while can think of other views that have been brought
and challenged, accepted and used often by some and not at all by others.


i facilitated one track of the agile/xp universe conference in 2002 and a
more recent scrum event a few years ago.  i think i've facilitated three
agile alliance board retreats.  i've talked with a number of the original
signers of the manifesto and been able to sit in on their conversations
with each other.  and i'm really looking forward to dan's upcoming call,
because i don't feel like i know that much about how agile actually works.

as for voices of authority and seniority, i don't think those things have
ever counted for much around here, generally.  one of the really remarkable
things about the conversations we captured in the OST: A User's Non-Guide
ebook was that much of it was Julie Smith chiming in after being here all
of a week or two, and digging into all sorts of what might have been viewed
as sacred by other newcomers.

i'm not sure if any of this is helping you either... though i'm not sure
either of us needs any help!  i kind of hope this agile/os conversation
might be moving toward some sort of gathering where a group of us might get
more deeply connected to each other and the unique challenges and
opportunities related to mixing these two ways of working.  i'm not as
interested in agile helping os, or os helping the agile movement, whatever
that means.  i'm more interested in working with the people who are working
on deepening their understanding of how the two can play together,
especially in real situations rather than hypotheticals.  more interested
in the people than the movements, does that make me sound agile?

btw, missoula during ski season sounds like the perfect venue to me!
 wasn't the manifesto signed in some ski lodge somewhere?  of course,
anyplace with a bar will work on the open space side.

m




--

Michael Herman
Michael Herman Associates
312-280-7838 (mobile)

http://MichaelHerman.com
http://OpenSpaceWorld.org



On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 3:08 PM, Harold Shinsato <harold at shinsato.com> wrote:

>  Hi Michael,
>
> No fun to hear I'm failing - but it hasn't stopped me before. Try and try
> again (even if it takes years).
>
> I'm not saying OST *is* a game. I'm not saying OST is anything.
>
> What I see is that there is value in the metaphor of OST as a game.
>
> So Dan is already speaking about OST as a game to Agile circles and making
> some good cheese with it. And maybe the Agile community has a bit of a leg
> up on us here because Alistair Cockburn used the game metaphor in his first
> book in the 1990's about this. And Alistair is one of the signatories of
> the Agile Manifesto that started the whole "Agile" (with capital letter)
> conversation. But Alistair wasn't talking specifically about software as in
> an obscure coding thing thing that will make everyone's eyes glaze over. He
> was speaking about a different way to look at work and at teams.
>
> So I've been in the Agile conversation for over a decade. And it's not
> always been fun. Much of it has been butting up against minds that were
> very shut, and it's still not an uncommon experience for advocates to run
> into a wall. And maybe this might not seem relevant here, but much of that
> "Agile" conversation has been about people. People people people. It's even
> a frequent complaint I hear for the techies, because a minority who show up
> at conferences are only interested in the coding aspect. But they're the
> minority. The first line of the Agile Manifesto<http://agilemanifesto.org/>- "Individuals and interactions over processes and tools."
>
> Yes - I do live in that world of code. But I also live in this world of
> Open Space, improving human dynamics in teams, OD type stuff etc. And often
> times having a foot in both worlds causes cognitive dissonance because not
> too many are comfortable in this lonely between space. Finding language to
> bring together the contasting perspectives can be difficult.
>
> But living in both worlds - I see so much in common. I see so much common
> ground. I see so many ways that the Agile crowd can help the OST/OD crowd,
> and most certainly visa versa.
>
> The thing is - the Agile universe is already embracing Open Space in a
> huge way. And not always with the direct help and support and understanding
> of the folks here. Which is not always a good thing.
>
> One last thing - the Agile community is not homogeneous. There are many
> innovations that cause controversy and big huge disruptions. I'm seeing
> some of Dan's work in this community as being potentially hugely powerful
> and disrupting - and in a large way due to his being the most potent
> advocate of Open Space in Agile today. And this game perspective is part of
> how he got there.
>
> I'm not fully there and understanding his metaphor of OST as a game - and
> it looks like I'll need to converse with him outside this forum to fully
> get it. I guess I was hoping for a warmer reception from the voices of
> authority and seniority on this list. But at least, having attended WOSonOS
> in Florida and knowing some of what is happening in the Open Space world
> because of being part of the Open Space Institute/U.S. - I do know that
> many of us are catching more of the agile mojo and that it will continue to
> mature.
>
> Well, anyway - not sure I just helped you Michael but thanks for giving me
> an excuse to rant. :-)
>
>     Cheers,
>     Harold
>
>
>
>
> On 10/9/13 11:58 AM, Michael Herman wrote:
>
> Not sure you actually accomlished "Against," Harold.  I think I just read
> OST is life, a finite slice of Life.
>
>  And if the conversation happens in a room full of people who think and
> talk about games, that's great to say OST is a game cuz everyone in that
> room or community knows what that means. Probably doesn't work as well on
> CNN or at an ODN mtg.
>
>  I guess it still a bit confusing to me if this conversation is about how
> to talk OST in agile community or how to talk OST in other/larger
> communities. Translation is always possible, but the game lingo doesn't
> seem native to the folks I'm usually talking with. Actually, finding
> some native understanding of (and native language for) OS seems like half
> the game in many instances.
>
>  m
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, October 9, 2013, Harold Shinsato wrote:
>
>>  Harrison,
>>
>> Ok, I'll take your word from previous posts that I won't be in trouble if
>> I risk going up against you again - or maybe it's just a hope that this
>> thread won't be shut down due to misunderstandings.
>>
>> The statement "OST is a game" actually doesn't work for me so much
>> because it uncomfortably reduces all the ideas and philosophy (and
>> practice) of OST into a word that unfortunately has for many negative
>> connotations. But perhaps I'll invite thinking about OST *as* a game
>> instead. Perhaps that can help prevent cognitive dissonance and allow for
>> this conversation to continue.
>>
>> My understanding of the word game as used by Daniel Mezick and others
>> comes from game theory - and could open up many benefits.
>>
>> The briefest way I think to hope to keep this particular door open for
>> those in this community who might find the word game unpleasant would be to
>> suggest the book "Finite and Infinite Games: A Vision of Life as Play and
>> Possibility" by James P. Carse. Mr. Carse actually is a professor of
>> history and literature of religion - and his thinking in that book is very
>> poetic and beautiful. And it reminds me much of Open Space thinking - and I
>> won't even attempt to dive into his thesis any more than to look at what I
>> think sums up the thinking being the final sentence in the book. "There is
>> only one infinite game."
>>
>> The bigger game of Open Space is the game of life - the unending story -
>> the "one infinite game". And an OST meeting or conference is a finite game
>> which seems to open up an experience of the infinite game in a beautiful
>> way. And yet, there's still value in seeing the finite game aspects of OST
>> in that context.
>>
>> Alas, perhaps this attempt will be futile. But I hold out hope that
>> others won't be discouraged from this perspective on OST as a game and it's
>> benefits.
>>
>>     Harold
>>
>> On 10/7/13 1:25 PM, Harrison Owen wrote:
>>
>>  Dan – Using the word, “game” as you do, I guess it sort of works with
>> OS, but I do confess a certain feeling of cognitive dissonance, which I
>> suspect may be shared by some of my colleagues. In any event, it certainly
>> would not be a word I would use. But that doesn’t mean a great deal.
>> However, when you say, “Leaders choose to play OST. Or not,” I do feel
>> called upon to say something like... Oh Yes?
>>
>>
>>
>> Some people refer to the “Game of Life,” but it is scarcely a game you
>> choose to play (or not). Not playing is called suicide, I think, and while
>> some people do make that choice it is not a choice that most folks would
>> considered good, useful, or positive. It is more like canceling all
>> choices. Out of the Game, so to speak.
>>
>>
>>
>> I feel rather the same way about OS, and for all the same reasons. OS for
>> me is not a process we choose to do or not do – quite simply it is what we
>> are --  Self organizing, and OS is only an invitation to be ourselves fully
>> and purposefully. We can chose to be ourselves with distinction, despair,
>> or something in between --  but so long as we remain on the planet in some
>> viable form, we got no choice. We are what we are, what we are. Put a
>> little differently, OS is not something new and different, it is just a
>> small name change for what has been around for quite a while: life.  I
>> guess you can call it a game, but somehow that seems to miss some of the
>> nuances.
>>
>>
>>
>> Harrison
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Harold Shinsato
>> harold at shinsato.com
>> http://shinsato.com
>> twitter: @hajush <http://twitter.com/hajush>
>>
>
>
> --
> Michael Herman
> MichaelHerman.com
> (312) 280-7838
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
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>
>
> --
> Harold Shinsato
> harold at shinsato.com
> http://shinsato.com
> twitter: @hajush <http://twitter.com/hajush>
>
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