<div dir="ltr">whoops, was responding on my phone and took an inadvertent shortcut when i said, "...<span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">that's great to say OST is a game cuz..." that said, and given this history with alistair's metaphor and the churning in the agile community, it makes a lot of sense that the metaphor of ost as a game is useful in agile circles. i'm not sure i see the value in suggesting more generally that the metaphor of ost as a game works universally. </span><div>
<font face="arial, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div><font face="arial, sans-serif">you've shared some history about agile, and the ost community isn't very different in some ways, i think. for fifteen years, i've been describing ost as a practice in invitation, and it's only recently that i thought the invitation dimension was getting the attention it deserves. harrison's been describing ost as an example of self-organization at least that many years and i know i almost never describe it to potential clients that way. it's just not my story. so if there's some skepticism about "game" here, know that it's only just scratching the surface of what's been said and questioned about the self-org story, and others. i'm sure others who've been around here a while can think of other views that have been brought and challenged, accepted and used often by some and not at all by others. <br>
</font><div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></span></div><div><font face="arial, sans-serif">i facilitated one track of the agile/xp universe conference in 2002 and a more recent scrum event a few years ago. i think i've facilitated three agile alliance board retreats. i've talked with a number of the original signers of the manifesto and been able to sit in on their conversations with each other. and i'm really looking forward to dan's upcoming call, because i don't feel like i know that much about how agile actually works. </font></div>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">as for voices of authority and seniority, i don't think those things have ever counted for much around here, generally. one of the really remarkable things about the conversations we captured in the OST: A User's Non-Guide ebook was that much of it was Julie Smith chiming in after being here all of a week or two, and digging into all sorts of what might have been viewed as sacred by other newcomers. </span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">i'm not sure if any of this is helping you either... though i'm not sure either of us needs any help! </span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">i kind of hope this agile/os conversation might be moving toward some sort of gathering where a group of us might get more deeply connected to each other and the unique challenges and opportunities related to mixing these two ways of working. i'm not as interested in agile helping os, or os helping the agile movement, whatever that means. i'm more interested in working with the people who are working on deepening their understanding of how the two can play together, especially in real situations rather than hypotheticals. more interested in the people than the movements, does that make me sound agile? </span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div><font face="arial, sans-serif">btw, missoula during ski season sounds like the perfect venue to me! wasn't the manifesto signed in some ski lodge somewhere? of course, anyplace with a bar will work on the open space side.</font></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">m </span><font face="arial, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div><div><font face="arial, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div><font face="arial, sans-serif"> </font></div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div> <br>--<br><br>Michael Herman<br>Michael Herman Associates<br>
312-280-7838 (mobile)<br><br><a href="http://MichaelHerman.com" target="_blank">http://MichaelHerman.com</a><br><a href="http://OpenSpaceWorld.org" target="_blank">http://OpenSpaceWorld.org</a><br><br></div>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 3:08 PM, Harold Shinsato <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:harold@shinsato.com" target="_blank">harold@shinsato.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div>Hi Michael,<br>
<br>
No fun to hear I'm failing - but it hasn't stopped me before. Try
and try again (even if it takes years).<br>
<br>
I'm not saying OST *is* a game. I'm not saying OST is anything.<br>
<br>
What I see is that there is value in the metaphor of OST as a
game.<br>
<br>
So Dan is already speaking about OST as a game to Agile circles
and making some good cheese with it. And maybe the Agile community
has a bit of a leg up on us here because Alistair Cockburn used
the game metaphor in his first book in the 1990's about this. And
Alistair is one of the signatories of the Agile Manifesto that
started the whole "Agile" (with capital letter) conversation. But
Alistair wasn't talking specifically about software as in an
obscure coding thing thing that will make everyone's eyes glaze
over. He was speaking about a different way to look at work and at
teams.<br>
<br>
So I've been in the Agile conversation for over a decade. And it's
not always been fun. Much of it has been butting up against minds
that were very shut, and it's still not an uncommon experience for
advocates to run into a wall. And maybe this might not seem
relevant here, but much of that "Agile" conversation has been
about people. People people people. It's even a frequent complaint
I hear for the techies, because a minority who show up at
conferences are only interested in the coding aspect. But they're
the minority. The first line of the <a href="http://agilemanifesto.org/" target="_blank">Agile Manifesto</a> -
"Individuals and interactions over processes and tools."<br>
<br>
Yes - I do live in that world of code. But I also live in this
world of Open Space, improving human dynamics in teams, OD type
stuff etc. And often times having a foot in both worlds causes
cognitive dissonance because not too many are comfortable in this
lonely between space. Finding language to bring together the
contasting perspectives can be difficult.<br>
<br>
But living in both worlds - I see so much in common. I see so much
common ground. I see so many ways that the Agile crowd can help
the OST/OD crowd, and most certainly visa versa.<br>
<br>
The thing is - the Agile universe is already embracing Open Space
in a huge way. And not always with the direct help and support and
understanding of the folks here. Which is not always a good thing.<br>
<br>
One last thing - the Agile community is not homogeneous. There are
many innovations that cause controversy and big huge disruptions.
I'm seeing some of Dan's work in this community as being
potentially hugely powerful and disrupting - and in a large way
due to his being the most potent advocate of Open Space in Agile
today. And this game perspective is part of how he got there.<br>
<br>
I'm not fully there and understanding his metaphor of OST as a
game - and it looks like I'll need to converse with him outside
this forum to fully get it. I guess I was hoping for a warmer
reception from the voices of authority and seniority on this list.
But at least, having attended WOSonOS in Florida and knowing some
of what is happening in the Open Space world because of being part
of the Open Space Institute/U.S. - I do know that many of us are
catching more of the agile mojo and that it will continue to
mature.<br>
<br>
Well, anyway - not sure I just helped you Michael but thanks for
giving me an excuse to rant. :-)<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Harold<div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 10/9/13 11:58 AM, Michael Herman wrote:<br>
</div></div></div>
<blockquote type="cite"><div><div class="h5">Not sure you actually accomlished "Against," <span></span>Harold. I
think I just read OST is life, a finite slice of Life.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>And if the conversation happens in a room full of people who
think and talk about games, that's great to say OST is a game
cuz everyone in that room or community knows what that means.
Probably doesn't work as well on CNN or at an ODN mtg. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I guess it still a bit confusing to me if this conversation
is about how to talk OST in agile community or how to talk OST
in other/larger communities. Translation is always possible, but
the game lingo doesn't seem native to the folks I'm usually
talking with. Actually, finding some native understanding of
(and native language for) OS seems like half the game in many
instances. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>m</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
On Wednesday, October 9, 2013, Harold Shinsato wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div>Harrison,<br>
<br>
Ok, I'll take your word from previous posts that I won't
be in trouble if I risk going up against you again - or
maybe it's just a hope that this thread won't be shut down
due to misunderstandings.<br>
<br>
The statement "OST is a game" actually doesn't work for me
so much because it uncomfortably reduces all the ideas and
philosophy (and practice) of OST into a word that
unfortunately has for many negative connotations. But
perhaps I'll invite thinking about OST *as* a game
instead. Perhaps that can help prevent cognitive
dissonance and allow for this conversation to continue.<br>
<br>
My understanding of the word game as used by Daniel Mezick
and others comes from game theory - and could open up many
benefits.<br>
<br>
The briefest way I think to hope to keep this particular
door open for those in this community who might find the
word game unpleasant would be to suggest the book "Finite
and Infinite Games: A Vision of Life as Play and
Possibility" by James P. Carse. Mr. Carse actually is a
professor of history and literature of religion - and his
thinking in that book is very poetic and beautiful. And it
reminds me much of Open Space thinking - and I won't even
attempt to dive into his thesis any more than to look at
what I think sums up the thinking being the final sentence
in the book. "There is only one infinite game."<br>
<br>
The bigger game of Open Space is the game of life - the
unending story - the "one infinite game". And an OST
meeting or conference is a finite game which seems to open
up an experience of the infinite game in a beautiful way.
And yet, there's still value in seeing the finite game
aspects of OST in that context.<br>
<br>
Alas, perhaps this attempt will be futile. But I hold out
hope that others won't be discouraged from this
perspective on OST as a game and it's benefits.<br>
<br>
Harold<br>
<br>
On 10/7/13 1:25 PM, Harrison Owen wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Dan
– Using the word, “game” as you do, I guess it sort
of works with OS, but I do confess a certain feeling
of cognitive dissonance, which I suspect may be
shared by some of my colleagues. In any event, it
certainly would not be a word I would use. But that
doesn’t mean a great deal. However, when you say,
“Leaders choose to play OST. Or not,” I do feel
called upon to say something like... Oh Yes? </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Some
people refer to the “Game of Life,” but it is
scarcely a game you choose to play (or not). Not
playing is called suicide, I think, and while some
people do make that choice it is not a choice that
most folks would considered good, useful, or
positive. It is more like canceling all choices. Out
of the Game, so to speak.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
feel rather the same way about OS, and for all the
same reasons. OS for me is not a process we choose
to do or not do – quite simply it is what we are --
Self organizing, and OS is only an invitation to be
ourselves fully and purposefully. We can chose to be
ourselves with distinction, despair, or something in
between -- but so long as we remain on the planet
in some viable form, we got no choice. We are what
we are, what we are. Put a little differently, OS is
not something new and different, it is just a small
name change for what has been around for quite a
while: life. I guess you can call it a game, but
somehow that seems to miss some of the nuances.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Harrison
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><br>
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<div>-- <br>
Harold Shinsato<br>
<a>harold@shinsato.com</a><br>
<a href="http://shinsato.com" target="_blank">http://shinsato.com</a><br>
twitter: <a href="http://twitter.com/hajush" target="_blank">@hajush</a></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Michael Herman<br>
MichaelHerman.com<br>
<a href="tel:%28312%29%20280-7838" value="+13122807838" target="_blank">(312) 280-7838</a>
<p>Sent from my iPhone<br>
</p>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
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</div></blockquote>
<br><div class="im">
<br>
<div>-- <br>
Harold Shinsato<br>
<a href="mailto:harold@shinsato.com" target="_blank">harold@shinsato.com</a><br>
<a href="http://shinsato.com" target="_blank">http://shinsato.com</a><br>
twitter: <a href="http://twitter.com/hajush" target="_blank">@hajush</a></div>
</div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>