Come join us at Open Space Technology World Community Ning site!!

Wed Nov 18 09:03:39 PST 2009

thanks michael. 
if it's helpful to share perspectives about these issues and interactions, here's mine:
it was kaliya's session at wosonos in san francisco - i definitely have no level of sophistication about the issues kaliya is raising. but they were persuasive to me, and i took it upon myself to see to it that communication took place between them.

my understanding about the interactions of michael and kaliya was: they had a productive conversation about the ideas and concerns that she raised.
with that understanding, i did not pursue this further. now i regret not following up.
i need to prepare for a meeting, so i need to stop here for now.
blessings all -
jeff aitken

Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 09:23:07 -0600
From: michael at michaelherman.com
Subject: Re: [OSLIST] Come join us at Open Space Technology World Community Ning site!!
To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU

well, well.  so, if i understand this correctly, all of this is going on because the website i run occupies a single spot, the second spot as it turns out, on the google search rankings.  

i've been called a lot of things in the last 24 hours.  some of you don't know me and might be wondering what is going on.  in some ways, i'm wondering what's going on as well, but let me give you a little view into the inner workings of openspaceworld.org.

osonos 16 happened in san francisco in july.  in september, i was adding the procedings to the openspaceworld.org.  then i had a look through the document.  i noticed that kaliya and jeff aitken had convened a session about the website. 

now this next part matters.... when i read this and saw their ideas, i immediately contacted kaliya and jeff in support of their ideas.

here's exactly what i wrote to them:

hey hey jeff and kaliya, just getting around to posting the osonos proceedings at openspaceworld.org. 
in flipping through the doc to see how it got so very large, i noticed
your session and the beginnings of the list of blogs.  are you moving
on this aggregating idea?  do you have a place to put it?  if not, i'd very
much like to have it replace -- succeed, really -- the osw.org
 weblog.  thoughts?  m

jeff replied with some further explanation of their ideas, to which i said, among other things...

...the main thing for now to know is that i'm glad to have such things find a home at osw.org.

now... we shared a total of 11 messages.  kaliya wrote only two of them, a total of 3 lines, and the the conversation ended when she did not respond.  in january i got some time to work on implementing what she suggested in those lines.  when i couldn't figure out the technical stuff, i emailed her for guidance and never heard back.  in april she emailed the osi-usa board with these same ideas.  she has never contacted me directly about this.  never asked for what she wanted.  even though we once shared a portland-to-seattle car ride together after an conference i opened in portland.

i will tell you all very honestly that the ONLY reason that kaliya's ideas have not been implemented somewhere inside of or linked to openspaceworld.org is that she's never asked me directly, never asked me in a way that i could recognize as nicely, never asked me at all to discuss the possibilities... and has not even engaged in the conversation that i invited when i learned of her ideas and experise and interest.

a bit more perspective on this whole bit about what i should do with the #2 google-ranked ost website... the wikipedia page for ost is the #1 site and is in need of tremendous editing.  it's a *mainstream* wiki and publicly editable.  anyone unhappy with me and my site could easily start with fixing that page.  further down the list is lisa heft's website, at #5 or so... and the thing to notice about that one is that it's only a few years old.  in other words, the top ten rankings are not impenetrable.

i'm late for an appointment.

m

--

Michael Herman
Michael Herman Associates

http://www.michaelherman.com
http://www.ronanparktrail.com

http://www.chicagoconservationcorps.org
http://www.openspaceworld.org

312-280-7838 (mobile)

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 5:15 AM, Tree Fitzpatrick <therese.fitzpatrick at gmail.com> wrote:

Karen . . .your comments are distractingly sweet and lovely .. . but with your comments do not address Kaliya's very imporant point that when people do any internet search looking for open space technology, they are directed to Michael's website . . . but the OS community does not own the site, Michael does. Your sweetly deceptive comments that someone, or a bunch of someones, can get together and build something else are disingenuous and you fail to address Kaliya's point.  

We can't build something else:  Michael owns the website that is standing in the way of the OS community from having a collaboratively created, recognized and used website.  I bet it is good for his business but it is a major block to the evolution of a professional internet presence for OST.

Michael dominates the spot all search engines send people when they google 'open space technology' . . we all own that langauge but michael controls the worldwide intersection.

It isn't right, that he controls it . . . not for open space.  Out of all the things that should be open, surely open space ought to be open on the internet?

Lisa's effort is an attempt to get around the stumbling block that is Michael and MIchael is resisting it, probably because his ego is strongly attached to it. If he were as open as he claims, he would step aside, open his website up to this whole community and trust the community. I don't see him offering to step aside.

Of course he can have his own website . . but the search engines send everyone to his site.  He should step aside.  As Kaliya says, we all ought to own the spot where Google sends people when they search for OST:  it would be a great thing for OST. It's about opening more space but Michael and his acolytes on this list are being obtuse when they spout his empty rhetoric.

On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 11:20 AM, Karen Sella <karen at luminacoaching.com> wrote:

If someone builds a space—“building”—and
invites everyone in a community to come whenever they like, but doesn’t
give everyone the keys or the ability to renovate the place, I consider that
place a gift, not an obstacle.  If I don’t like the building or the
fact that I can’t do whatever I like in it or the fact that it gets a lot
of (well-deserved) attention, I can create another building or invite people in
the community to join me in the effort to create something else—and all
without calling the creator of the original building a “dictator.” 
It may not meet everyone’s needs, but I kind of like the old place and I’m
truly grateful to the person, Michael, who created it, as well as all the
others who have contributed to it throughout the years.  If someone or a
bunch of some ones get together, and builds another place to open some space,
extending the invitation to hang out there too, I imagine that I would appreciate
aspects, if not everything, about the character of that building too… 

Karen

 lumina fr. L. light, air, opening... 

Karen Sella 

Coaching:  www.luminacoaching.com

Consulting:  www.integralventures.com

Phone: 1.206.780.2998

Skype: karensella

The
information contained in this message may be privileged, confidential and
protected from disclosure.  If you are not the intended recipient, any
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From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU]
On Behalf Of Kaliya *

Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009
11:00 AM

To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU

Subject: Re: [OSLIST] Come join us at Open Space Technology World
Community Ning site!!

On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Michael
 Herman <michael at michaelherman.com>
wrote:

kaliya, and everyone else...

what lisa heft has lauded as fierce love of this practice and this community
shows up a bit differently on my screen.  i've been called irresponsible,
unsafe, dominating, controlling and i'm probably forgetting a few. 
wow.  thanks for your thoughts and acknowledgements about trust and such,
holger.

do you realize, kaliya, that openspaceworld.org
actually does have "mainstream" wikis --

Yeah - MEATBALL WIKI IS NOT A MAINSTREAM WIKI. 

not one, but six of them?  we have an estonian wiki!  and a
haitian creole wiki.  and spanish/portuguese and italian and two in
english.  five (including one of the english wikis) are publicly
editable.  the sixth is publicly editable, but not obviously so.  i
use it to manage the main resources content of .org version -- because it is so
simple and because almost anyone could step in and understand and manage the
thing very easily.  meanwhile there are a number of people who do help out
from time to time.  

leaving that aside, you've also called openspaceworld.org a community asset.  i use this same
term.  to me it's about community service and community benefit.  

That YOU manage and control. 

This is dominating. 

It is framed as "THE worldwide home of Open
Space Technology" is what it comes up in google as. 

This is a community site and it should be run with community input and more
then ONE person with the keys to the web castle. 

GOOGLE and referencing and linking make it a very "uneaven place" and
those who have attention get more attention and those who aggregete authority
(as the openspace.net/.org site has)
have more power.  This is just true. 

It is the 3 & 3 top links in google when you search for open space
technology.  + 2 more links on first page. 

The second outgoing link off the wikipedia page (which is the 1st link) 

This makes it weather you like it or not a community asset with real power to
shape and define things and should be run as a community. 

responding to the two comments following this about "the internet being
open space"  IN one way yes. 

openspaceworld.org is
something i give to the world so that it might benefit.  but you say
community asset and seem to ascribe some right to control or manage.  so,
what do you mean when you say "community asset?"  and what is it
about openspaceworld.org
and .net that makes them community assets?  and what about openspaceworldmap.org
and worldscape.org? 
what about the the chinese and korean and polish sites that have sprung
up?  

harrison uses openspaceworld.com. 
is that name a community asset?  and then there are those who've claimed
an open space name at facebook or myspace or linkedin, and now, ning.  is
the use of the open space name there something the community should be
managing?  what about those who read the book, try it out, learn the way
and then dare to "train others" in ost.  is their use of the ost
name something to be managed as well?  how do you draw the lines between
these?  how would we manage them?  you said something about a small
group of techies making decisions and explaining them in non-techie terms to
the rest of the community?  

to diane and lori's points, way back at osonos7, 1999 in chicago, when the openspaceworld.org site
was just months old, michael pannwitz put up a blank page on the wall and asked
for everyone to put the addresses of ost sites.  i had just barely
finished getting openspaceworld.org
up and running, really, like the paint still wet, but i stood back and told
many people that michael's list was what i saw as the future of the openspaceworld.org site --
just a listing of other sites.  

OK so keep it that way as "just a list" not "THE worldwide home
of Open Space
Technology" 

so first and foremost, i've tried to make the site link to things
happening everywhere, like the agenda wall, lori describes.  now, i've
also been willing to host lots of other things, wikis and such, just to help
people out, but  mostly that was before it got so easy to start a ning
group or a wiki or a whole new website.  

i think that we don't need to create so solid a center,

IT IS "THE CENTER" cause it is referenced that way on the interenet
and frames itself as the center. 

but to let the center we have, especially in the quality of the oslist
conversation, permeate all these other places.  we go to ning not because
it serves us, but because there are a bunch of folks out there who use ning as
their primary way of working with people.  same with facebook, linkedin,
etc.  so to me, oslist is the core conversation, and metanet before
that.  but you know what?  metanet and all the gorgeous things that
happened there over 4 or some years is gone.  same with the revival we had
for a while.  and yet, ost goes on.  and just like in ost meetings,
not everyone has to go to all of the breakouts.

if i could secure into the future a single web asset, it would be the oslist,
for its archives and for its spirit.  

Again this goes to the heart of diversity. 

A super chatty mailing list is not the ONLY way and form that people like to
get information.

The OST world wide site should be graphically higher quality - cause all of our
clients are likely to see it.  (I am not the only one who hpapens to have
a clientel oriented to professionalism and how things look on the web. )

IT should have a diversity of voices writing for it. 

IT should have a more systemic ways of capturing events that people have.

Many many things should be better about it because of where it is in the online
reality of things. 

Yes I am using the word SHOULD becuase I think it is important and that as a
community we should take responsibility and make it better. TOGETHER. Not
begging you to make changes or post things (apparently the proceedings from
last years open space on open space in SF have not been posted yet). 

If you believe in "open space" for real on the web then more then
just you would be able to edit and post things. You would have an open
accessible usable wiki that you didn't have to request access to (using more up
to date forms of addressing spam). 

everything else, including the sites i've created, is gravy.  and
any sort of central conversation beyond the oslist feels like a step
backward.  we're already much bigger than a single site.  best we can
do is to link around a lot.  

when ost training was new, and even the term was quite new, harrison
wisely resisted the prevailing logic of certification and control. 
"people can tell when the space is really open" he used to say of
those times when folks called some strange things "open space". 
people will find what they need of this stuff online, too.  even without
the oslist and without openspaceworld.org
and dot everything else.  

if harrison had certified it, we'd be in the
certification business, not the ost business.  i think it's the same with
community asset management.  we could easily get into the online practice
community management business... which would be a shame cuz there's already
such a large and open group doing such a very fine, while in no way perfect or
ideal, job of managing itself and its assets.

You are not able to listen to clear direct criticism.

Just spouting back "open spacisms" to justify your point of view.

I must just call it as I see it.

now this is in no way intended to block progress!  how ever could
i block progess of such a large and open community? 

Yes you control the website. You manage who can post. You decide which
technology platforms it uses. Sorry but you are blocking progress. 

anybody can make anything they want and i'll just keep linking to
it.  all i'm saying is that we might not need to work that hard, trying to
create THE centrally managed always-up-to-date community site.  what some
might see as slacking off or mismanagement in my site is actually my actively
working to do less and less with it...still working toward that vision of openspacworld.org as just a
list of websites, as so many sessions posted on the wall.  i'm glad to stand
next to it and tear little pieces of tape (simple links) for those who would
put something up for us.

The Open Space World SITE IS THE CENTER OF THE OST universe online because of
how it is linked. 

It is like a going to a physical event and having on the front of the 4 story
building a GIANT banner 4 stories high - before you get into the building to
see any of what is there you see this BANNER it makes you as a person who knows
nothing about what is in inside to go in or not.  THIS IS WHY I CARE about
this site and want things to change. 

 It is a community asset and it should be managed as a community not with
one dictator.  

The Open Space World SITE IS THE CENTER OF THE OST universe online because of
how it is linked.  This can't be "undone" it is the way of the
web. The questions is what is on that banner and who decides what is on the art
on the walls inside the building and the plays that get produced IN THAT
BUILDING.  

-Kaliya

m 

--

Michael Herman

Michael Herman Associates

http://www.michaelherman.com

http://www.ronanparktrail.com

http://www.chicagoconservationcorps.org

http://www.openspaceworld.org

312-280-7838 (mobile)

On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 2:06 AM, Kaliya <identitywoman at gmail.com>
wrote:

My passion is for an open transparent "open space world" site
that is collaboratively run.

Some coherent well thoughtout community deliberated strategy for our
online life - that includes adoption of open platforms and open standards.

I am naming a dysfunction a disruption in "the field of
openness" in 2 ways 

1. Choosing a closed proprietary commercial place for the global
community to be invited to by world wide leaders.

 2. That you Michael are dominating and controlling of a community
asset and blocking progress on updating and opening it.

If you can't hear that and actually repond to these points rather then
pointing back at me "re my passion" then I guess you are deaf.

-kaliya

Kaliya

www.identitywoman.net

On Nov 16, 2009, at 10:01 PM, Michael Herman
<michael at michaelherman.com>
wrote:

i think you're forgetting
two things, kaliya.  

first, nobody is or can be "bringing the community" anywhere. 
anyone can invite all of us to anywhere and each of us will make our own
choices about showing up.  no bringing at all.  

second, the open space institute is not responsible for your passion -- but you
could be.  if you think something's missing on the great ost wall of the
internet, just post it up there yourself.  you certainly have the vision
and skills to create the things you want to see.  just go do it.

as for ownership of stuff like ning content... have you ever noticed that we
don't actually own our 13+ years of oslist content?  but if they closed us
down tomorrow (and this really did *almost* happen a little while back), i'm
sure we'd be back together again someplace else in a matter of days. 

meanwhile, we do already have dozens of community sites and sub-sites in this
community, each one the product of personal passion bounded by
responsibility.  and then a bunch of individual sites that offer even
more.  i rather like that our web presence is so big and open that anyone
can make an offering and be part of it, and that the whole of it is so much
bigger than any single site or institute.  we're bigger, too, than your
proverbial bus.

m

--

Michael Herman

Michael Herman Associates

http://www.michaelherman.com

http://www.ronanparktrail.com

http://www.chicagoconservationcorps.org

http://www.openspaceworld.org

312-280-7838 (mobile)

On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 9:19 PM, Kaliya * <identitywoman at gmail.com>
wrote:

While appreciate the
invitation to this space. 

I really object to bringing the community to private service.  The company
NING is just like facebook or myspace it is managed and controlled ultimately
by a corporation.  

It is closed source (the code that is used underlying the site is owned and not
viewable by us).

  The data of our use and the people on it - it is not clear about where
it goes. 

The community life all the information is "stuck" in the system - it
is not using open standards - so that at some point we wanted to leave NING we
could.

Ning does not have open standards avaliable for the activities on the site and
HAS NOT BEEN INVOLVED IN ANY of the conversations around developing or adopting
those under development for social activities on the web. 

There is NO Reason to do this. 

I think it would be much more responsible to get a  REAL COMMUNITY LIFE
AROUND 

1) A WIKI that is build on an open source "mainstream" wiki. 

2) A BLOG with community members contributing to and with different members
free to start their own blogs

3) A robust commenting system

4) A twitter strategy for lists and community connections in that medium. 

ALL of the above can be built on open source tools 

On servers that we manage and control. ( Or in the cloud but on our terms and
we can move to a new service if we don't like. )

No corporate entity can choose to turn it off.  We "own" it. 

All of the above can implement a common way to let members of the community
login across all of them with one login/password using OpenID. 

NING HAS NOT PLANS to Implement OpenID - (or any of the other standards)

http://developer.ning.com/forum/topic/show?id=1185512%3ATopic%3A11361

I have been talking about this for well over a year but apparently there is no
movement by the Open Space institute by the actually developing the community
tools in community. 

  Kaliya * <identitywoman at gmail.com>

  To: OSLIST
  <OSLIST at listserv.boisestate.edu>

  Mon,
  Apr 20, 2009 at 8:10 PM 

    Lisa just pinged me about this e-mail on the list
    and asked I respond. 

    I don't have time until next
    week to surface and comment fully. I on the 4th day of 12 days in a row of
    "traditional" conferences that I attending as a participant
    speaker. 

    At the core of a comment I made
    in response to a request for a donation to the OSI USA. 

    I would like to see the core
    community site have:

    * a mainstream wiki that has
    broad access rights.  (this is an editable website) yes there is
    currently a wiki - and no it is not a current mainstream wiki platform
    (there for has a non-normal syntax) and it has restricted access rights. 

    * an aggregation of blogs and
    another one for microblogging for practitioners  that pulls in the
    feeds from all the things that practitioners publish in these formats
    aggregated (via RSS) into one space (example from my technical community is
    Planet Identity (http://www.planetidentity.org)

    * admin access rights and
    responsibility held by several people (not just one person who if hit by a
    truck basically limits capacity of the whole community to function).  

    -Kaliya

TECHNOLOGY strategy for this community should be done in an open transparent
way. 

It should use "the best of" open source (this is very different then
"free tools" that are closed source and corporate owned with "them
untimately in control)  and focus on using open standards where possible. 

It should be developed in a way that includes the wisdom of those of us with
tech backgrounds and done in a way that explains our decisions to smart people
who are "not techies" so they understand the decisions/strategies and
agree they are in alignment with the community values and vision. 

global
proceedings aggregator?

  Michael
   Herman <michael at michaelherman.com>

  Thu,
  Apr 2, 2009 at 11:54 PM 

  Reply-To: OSLIST
  <OSLIST at listserv.boisestate.edu>

  To: OSLIST at listserv.boisestate.edu 

  here's a new one, i think.  for the techies
  among us.

  how would you capture proceedings if you were to have, say, dozens, or

  even hundreds of events convened simultaneously and you wanted

  everybody everywhere to be able to post their proceedings into one

  central place.  everybody except spammers, of course.  videos can
  be

  posted to youtube and tagged.  photos to flickr.  but what about
  the

  text proceedings?  and there is also the issue of a directory of event

  locations.  hoping this wouldn't require a dedicated

  application/platform.  here are some ideas.

  -listserve like yahoo or google group - non-public is a downside

  -facebook group - non-public is downside here too

  -wiki - might be too complex for rapid scale-up

  -blog - might be coolest, but might require moderation

  -twitter - might there be a way to collect only the issues raised

  everywhere?  tagged by location, perhaps?  could happen more places

  cuz could send from cellphones?

  -blog - could make a post or page for every event reported and then

  let them post comments.

  -just get everyone to start their own simple, free blog and use a blog

  aggregator... might miss a lot of sites.

  -google docs?

  -blog with a single "guest/contributor" username and password,

  publicly posted, with user only allowed to post reports, tagging for

  author and location within the post?

  ...this last option might be best, but then we get to the question of

  what if it all really works and folks wanted to post some stream of

  ongoing results and actions.  could happen.  so the system might
  want

  to support that.

  anything else you can think of out there in social networking space

  that could support such a thing?

  i think i like the twitter option, but have no idea if it can be made

  to function in this way.  could all of this be aimed at a single

  twitter name, or just tagged with a single twitter tag?  and somehow

  captured in a way taht was searchable and scrollable long after the

  first events occured?

  then there's the scenario where somehow we get to hack up a new

  version of the world map <grin>.

  so that's as far as i can guess, and maybe even a little past that.
   thoughts?

  many thanks,

  m

I read now that someone wrote in this thread "that NING does all
this"  I should have brought forward these concerns then and perhaps
get movement going in an open direction. I am sorry i didn't track that
thread.  When I popped up and made the preceding comment I prefaced it
saying I was in the middle of conference season.

You are all in luck. I just "finished" my unconference season and
have time to actually give to the communities I love and care about. 

I appreciate the care and attention that Artur Silva (Portugal),
Shufang Tsai (Taiwan)
and Lisa Heft (USA) have put forward to do this. 

I get that it was a utilitarian choice and was not informed by deeper issues
and values choices that are being made by using closed source, proprietary and
non-open standards based tools.  It was only done in love with the best
intentions. I feel I have to speak up because I am technologically literate
particularly in this area about openness and standards - it is where my core
open space facilitation work is - with communities developing an open layer of
the web that is social and community driven. 

I hope that I can work with others in the community who want to make the most
open choices possible and a collaborative on a future looking online/tech
strategy for the community. 

Regards, 

-Kaliya

On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 1:37 PM, Lisa Heft <lisaheft at openingspace.net>
wrote:

Artur Silva (Portugal), Shufang Tsai (Taiwan) and Lisa Heft (USA)

welcome you to
join us at the:

Open Space World Community Ning site

A gathering place for sharing, learning, resources and community.

-- create and
host or join a regional group in your own language

-- see the
photos of members - including your wonderful OSLIST
colleagues

-- post links
to photos, videos, tweets or blogs

-- create
calendar listings for your events

-- post and
share resources

-- create or
join a theme-based group about whatever you would like!

-- engage in
live chat.

This co-created
Ning web portal for all things Open Space is a compliment to the rich and
welcoming dialogue of OSLIST and all
our web-based resources such as openspaceworld.org

It is free.

Come and co-create.

The seedling
has sprouted - let us grow this lovely learning tree.

Jump right on -
sign in - create your own page and begin.

(It is new...in its Beta stage...we are still trying
out design and functions...come visit us there, enjoy using it, share any ideas
for improvement you may recommend...there is even a 'Caring for this Online
Community' Group you can join...and if anything does not work smoothly we will
all learn and share how to fix it...)

Do join us in this nutritious and diverse community meeting place.

http://openspaceworld.ning.com

We will
continue our rich and vibrant dialogues here on OSLIST,
and we will see you also in the Open Space World Community Ning site...

Artur, Shufang
and Lisa

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-- 
Love rays,
Tree Fitzpatrick  (check out my new address)

. . . the great and incalculable grace of love, which says, with Augustine, "I want you to be," without being able to give any particular reason for such supreme and unsurpassable affirmation.  -- Hannah Arendt

2175 Kittredge St Apt 615
Berkeley, CA 94704
510-665-4825

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