How can we foster sustainable outcomes?

Kaliya * identitywoman at gmail.com
Sun Jun 28 17:41:29 PDT 2009 

WAIT!
 you lost me on this thread - Why? beacuse you changed the subject line...

all I see is "Dear Reinhard, You have a very interesting point..."

I am like WHAT POINT???

 I don't see Reinhard's comments because they are not in this thread - my
e-mail program and many many other people's help them track e-mail threads
(conversations) and if the subject line stays the same...clumps them
together and presents them as a conversation...unfodling one e-mail after
the next.

Please stop changing subject lines in conversational threasds on this list.

Thanks,
-Kaliya

On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 11:15 AM, Catherine Pfaehler
<c.pfaehler at bluewin.ch>wrote:

> Dear Reinhard
>
> You have a very interesting point there. I have often wondered how the
> sustainable implementation of visible results can be fostered "better" by
> me, as in the post-OS-meeting, I often find my clients to focus on
> different
> things than what I would have expected.
>
> Then, again, on the other side, I am well aware that a most important side
> result of an OS event is always teambuilding, communication and a stronger
> commitment to their organisation by many participants. And if I succeed in
> allowing the client to really be responsible for what happens with the
> results, then I need to let go after having asked the evaluation questions
> and some others like "Does anything need a vessel for coordination now?"
> and
> "What has been developing since the OS event?".
>
> Other opinions??
>
> Heartfully, C.
>
> Catherine Pfaehler Senn
> lic.oec.HSG
> Open Space Begleitung
> St. Alban-Vorstadt 15
> CH - 4052 Basel
> +41-(0)76 - 488 15 46
> c.pfaehler at open-space-begleitung.ch
> www.open-space-begleitung.ch
>
>
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Reinhard Kuchenmueller [mailto:mail at visuelle-protokolle.de]
> Gesendet: Montag, 22. Juni 2009 19:12
> Betreff: AW: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST - Foundations of OST?
>
> my two cents:
>
> a principle is defined as a law superordinated to every other law.
> Condition: A certain effect can always be retraced to the same
> constellation
> of facts. (wikipedia).
>
> In this sense Harrison's principles are definitively no principles at all.
> But he was really clever: two martinis and four mundane sentences - and the
> whole world is repeating them like a mantra. Mantras, as the east knows
> since thousands of years, don't have to have a meaning, the essence lies
> behind them. It only gets painful, if you start to worship the mantras
> instead of the essence.
>
> Why is open space so effective? Certainly not because of the mantras. As I
> see it, we have to dig deeper:
>
> I could think of principles like:
>
> People are basically interested  - to engage themselves
>                                          - to take responsibility
>                                          - to interlink themselves
>
> That happens as soon as one stops to treat people like obstinate mules.
>
> And there exist conditions, which foster that, which support this so called
> self organisation.
>
> Certainly open space technology, as it is practised worldwide, is an
> excellent condition for self organisation.
>
> And your 'foundations' define it well.
>
> Rather often a client spends money for an open space event, and for the
> facilitator who proposes open space as a tool for the clients' purposes.
> This aspect seems to be underestimated in the debate.
>
> In my view the facilitator is responsible to link the proposed and choosen
> form of the event, in our case open space, with the system and the purpose
> of the client. What the client pays for is not the self organisation of his
> people, that is only a beautiful side effect, and a bridge to engage people
> in the affairs of the client - and more often simultaneously in their own
> working conditions.
>
> I cannot understand the disinterest of many open space facilitators towards
> the outcome and its linkage with the system of the client.
>
> That, in my eyes, is also the reason for the disinterest towards optimal
> forms of recording the outcome - and as a visual facilitator I of course
> propagate a visual form of protocol.
>
> The discussions in the os list are mainly conducted with the back to the
> clients, and that is a pity.
>
>
>
>
>
> mit freundlichen Grüßen
> best regards
>
> Reinhard Kuchenmüller
>
> VISUELLE PROTOKOLLE
>
> tel. +39-0566 88929
> www.visuelle-protokolle.de
> ________________________________________
> Von: OSLIST [OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] im Auftrag von Artur Silva
> [arturfsilva at YAHOO.COM]
> Gesendet: Sonntag, 21. Juni 2009 18:25
> An: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
> Betreff: Re: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST - Foundations of OST?
>
> Larry:
>
> I am sorry but only today I had the time to answer you.
>
> We certainly need foundations or principles to Open Space.
>
> But I prefer the word "foundations" instead of "principles" because, due to
> the man of the hat, this word is connected forever (only) with "the 4
> principles". And I think that that there are other principles (foundations)
> as important as, or even more important than, the 4 so called principles.
>
> Indeed I think (sorry Harrison) that the expression "The 4 principles" was
> badly chosen.
>
> Because it they are "what always happens" they are not principles at all.
> And because we think that we must state the principles in the beginning of
> every session (I myself to that the majority o the times - but not always")
> and I am more and more convinced that they are useless. You can state them
> or nor, and the same things will occur. They are probably "one less thing
> to
> do/state".
>
> But there are other principles or foundations that are essential, in the
> sense that if they are not present different things will happen.
>
> In the discussion I opened in our wiki some years ago I proposed the
> following:
>
> 3. I would suggest, as HO wrote in the old User’s Guide, that OST begins
> with:
>
>  *   A THEME that is compelling enough, but also general and open enough to
> let people dream about and
>  *   A GROUP OF COMMITED PEOPLE (reason for the presences to be almost
> always voluntary)
>  *   Enough DIVERSITY in the group
> 4. To those foundations one can add others that are generally accepted by
> all practitioners:
>
>  *   The CIRCLE (even if, in some cases, some argue that a "virtual circle"
> will do)
>  *   The Bulletin Board
>  *   The Market Place
>  *   The "law of two feet" (one of the most, if not the most important
> feature, from where butterflies and bumblebees "germinate" and many
> conflicts "evaporate")
>  *   The "four principles" (as I have promised ;-)
>
> (http://www.openspaceworld.org/cgi/netwiki.cgi?FoundationsofOST)
>
> If I were to rewrite this today, I would surely suppress the last line. But
> all the other "foundations" (including the law of two feet) are essential.
> If you suppress one of them you will have a meeting; but not, IMHO, an OST
> meeting. But we may not talk at all about the "4 principles" and everything
> will happen as usual.
>
> Best regrsds to all
>
> Artur
>
>
>
>
> --- On Thu, 5/28/09, Larry Peterson <larry at spiritedorg.com> wrote:
>
> From: Larry Peterson <larry at spiritedorg.com>
> Subject: Re: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST - Foundations of OST?
> To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
> Date: Thursday, May 28, 2009, 5:22 PM
>
> Maybe a “foundation” is another word for how I often describe the
> “principles”.  I encourage people, when I open a space, to make some
> assumptions about the gathering to assume what are stated as principles and
> to act on that basis during the event.  I think these only become “assumed”
> after some evolution of consciousness and I don’t experience most folks in
> organizations being there.  I think it is important to articulate them, to
> influence the “social construction” of the boundaries of the OST event
> along
> with the most important part – the focus question or theme.  Yep, it may be
> a bit of ritualized behaviour but I think it helps increase the
> possibilities what will emerge in the self-organizing process that will
> happen anyway.  Besides, I (we as facilitators) are one of the “selves” in
> the self-organization.
>
> Larry
>
>
> Larry Peterson & Associates in Transformation
> Toronto, Ontario, Canada
> larry at spiritedorg.com<
> http://us.mc546.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=larry@spi
> ritedorg.com<http://us.mc546.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=larry@spi%0Aritedorg.com>>
>   416.653.4829
> http://www.spiritedorg.com<http://www.spiritedorg.com/>
>
>
>
> From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of Artur
> Silva
> Sent: May-27-09 5:54 PM
> To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
> Subject: Re: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST - Foundations of OST?
>
> Harrison, Larry and all:
>
> I am afraid that I continue to read only the messages from this list from
> time to time...
>
> Today, I read this answer from Harrison to a reply from Larry to an
> original
> comment by Harrison. The 3 messages referred are listed below, and I ask
> you
> to first read the parts of those messages that I have transformed in bold.
>
> (...) Thanks for having done that ;-)
>
> Now, I am happy that Harrison agrees that "the 4 principles and one law are
> neither laws nor principles actually" and that there will come a day when
> The Law and The Principles can be assigned to that wonderful status of “One
> more thing not to do.”
>
> But Larry commented, very wisely as usual, about the importance of some
> form
> of “boundaries” or “container” for self-organization.
>
> So, maybe it is the appropriate time to reintroduce a discussion that I
> have
> tried to introduce many moons ago, about what are the foundations of OST.
>
> I mean,
>
> 1) if the principles are not "principles" after all, but only what always
> happens, and eventually even "one more thing not to do" (and I remember you
> that I have done some OST experiments without reference to the Principles -
> and all went well as usual), but
>
> 2) Some form of boundary or container is needed
>
> where this boundary or container does comes from?
>
> I have proposed to call that the "foundations" (not principles) of OST and
> proposed some ideas (that are only preliminary ideas) I would like to read
> (again) your opinions about.
>
> You can found my (preliminary) proposals, of some time ago, here
> http://www.openspaceworld.org/cgi/netwiki.cgi?FoundationsofOST
>
> and here
>
>
> http://listserv.boisestate.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0401&L=oslist&P=R23925&I=-3&
> X=6543D44B5D0A7C3BC4&Y=arturfsilva%40yahoo.com<http://listserv.boisestate.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0401&L=oslist&P=R23925&I=-3&%0AX=6543D44B5D0A7C3BC4&Y=arturfsilva%40yahoo.com>
> .
>
> Looking forward to hear from you all
>
> Warn regards from a warm night in Lisbon
>
> Artur
>
> ------
>
>
>
> --- On Wed, 5/27/09, Harrison Owen <hhowen at verizon.net> wrote:
>
> From: Harrison Owen <hhowen at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST
> To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
> Date: Wednesday, May 27, 2009, 7:23 AM
> Right on Larry – and I found a very curious and embarrassing typo in my
> small piece. I said, “They (the Principles and the Law) are descriptive as
> opposed to descriptive.” I meant to say,”They are descriptive as opposed to
> prescriptive.” Point is neither the Law nor the Principles tell you what to
> do – they simply alert everybody to what will be taking place no matter
> what. I think that is a useful function, but it really doesn’t change a
> thing. In short – there will come a day when The Law and The Principles can
> be assigned to that wonderful status of “One more thing not to do.”
>
> Harrison
>
>
> Harrison Owen
>
> 7808 River Falls Drive
>
> Potomac, Maryland   20854
>
> Phone 301-365-2093
>
> Skype hhowen
>
> Open Space Training www.openspaceworld.com<http://www.openspaceworld.com/>
>
> Open Space Institute www.openspaceworld.org<http://www.openspaceworld.org/
> >
>
> Personal website www.ho-image.com<http://www.ho-image.com/>
>
> OSLIST: To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives
> Visit:
> www.listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html<
> http://listserv.boisestate.
> edu/archives/oslist.html>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of Larry
> Peterson
> Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 9:44 AM
> To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
> Subject: Re: Anti Laws of OST
>
> For me, there is more sense in the “Principles and Law” than non-sense.
> Stewart Kauffman explores the importance of some form of “boundaries” or
> “container” for self-organization, particularly that of cells.  He believes
> (with strong scientific evidence) that real physical work only gets done
> within some “boundaries” or it dissipates.  Cells, he asserts, co-create
> their “boundaries” with their environment through self-organizing
> relationships in every moment.  The boundaries are permeable, constructs,
> open to interchange with their environment. (No such thing as a closed
> system!)
>
> Harrison, I believe you have articulated a set of socially constructed
> permeable “boundaries” for enhancing human self-organization – including
> the
> focus/theme, principles and law.  These set a temporary set of “boundaries”
> or a “container” both focused and open that change the perceived conditions
> for self-organization at an event or meeting.  Self-organization is
> happening all the time, in every moment.  Our mental maps (in practice) and
> feelings shape what we do as we self-organize – what topics we propose and
> who we connect to.  Are they necessary for self-organization (Open Space) –
> no, it is happening all the time as order emerges.  Do they (or other
> similar statements about the social framework for our self-organizing) help
> people to self-organize in exciting and creative ways?  I think so.
>
> Larry
>
>
> Larry Peterson & Associates in Transformation
> Toronto, Ontario, Canada
> larry at spiritedorg.com<
> http://us.mc546.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=larry@spi
> ritedorg.com<http://us.mc546.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=larry@spi%0Aritedorg.com>>
>   416.653.4829
> http://www.spiritedorg.com<http://www.spiritedorg.com/>
>
>
>
> From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of Harrison
> Owen
> Sent: May-25-09 2:59 PM
> To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
> Subject: Re: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST
>
> Just to render the whole thing non-sensical, the 4 principles and one law
> are neither laws nor principles actually. To be honest they are just my
> (and
> others’) observations of what seemed to be happening in any case. In a word
> they are descriptive as opposed to descriptive – You could say it is all a
> joke. Rather like “technology” in the phrase Open Space Technology. The
> joke, however turned out to be outrageously funny – because somehow or
> another truth broke through. We are in serious trouble! Everybody knows
> that
> what happens in Open Space simply can’t happen. Unfortunately it does – and
> that makes a joke out of a whole mess of other stuff – like most of what we
> think we know about meetings, the management of meetings, and management
> itself. Double trouble!!
>
> Harrison
>
>
> Harrison Owen
>
> 7808 River Falls Drive
>
> Potomac, Maryland   20854
>
> Phone 301-365-2093
>
> Skype hhowen
>
> Open Space Training www.openspaceworld.com<http://www.openspaceworld.com/>
>
> Open Space Institute www.openspaceworld.org<http://www.openspaceworld.org/
> >
>
> Personal website www.ho-image.com<http://www.ho-image.com/>
>
> OSLIST: To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives
> Visit:
> www.listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html<
> http://listserv.boisestate.
> edu/archives/oslist.html>
>
> .org/oslist
>
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