WAIT!<br> you lost me on this thread - Why? beacuse you changed the subject line...<br><br>all I see is "Dear Reinhard, You have a very interesting point..."<br><br>I am like WHAT POINT???<br><br> I don't see Reinhard's comments because they are not in this thread - my e-mail program and many many other people's help them track e-mail threads (conversations) and if the subject line stays the same...clumps them together and presents them as a conversation...unfodling one e-mail after the next. <br>
<br>Please stop changing subject lines in conversational threasds on this list. <br><br>Thanks, <br>-Kaliya<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 11:15 AM, Catherine Pfaehler <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:c.pfaehler@bluewin.ch">c.pfaehler@bluewin.ch</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Dear Reinhard<br>
<br>
You have a very interesting point there. I have often wondered how the<br>
sustainable implementation of visible results can be fostered "better" by<br>
me, as in the post-OS-meeting, I often find my clients to focus on different<br>
things than what I would have expected.<br>
<br>
Then, again, on the other side, I am well aware that a most important side<br>
result of an OS event is always teambuilding, communication and a stronger<br>
commitment to their organisation by many participants. And if I succeed in<br>
allowing the client to really be responsible for what happens with the<br>
results, then I need to let go after having asked the evaluation questions<br>
and some others like "Does anything need a vessel for coordination now?" and<br>
"What has been developing since the OS event?".<br>
<br>
Other opinions??<br>
<br>
Heartfully, C.<br>
<br>
Catherine Pfaehler Senn<br>
lic.oec.HSG<br>
Open Space Begleitung<br>
St. Alban-Vorstadt 15<br>
CH - 4052 Basel<br>
+41-(0)76 - 488 15 46<br>
<a href="mailto:c.pfaehler@open-space-begleitung.ch">c.pfaehler@open-space-begleitung.ch</a><br>
<a href="http://www.open-space-begleitung.ch" target="_blank">www.open-space-begleitung.ch</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----<br>
Von: Reinhard Kuchenmueller [mailto:<a href="mailto:mail@visuelle-protokolle.de">mail@visuelle-protokolle.de</a>]<br>
Gesendet: Montag, 22. Juni 2009 19:12<br>
Betreff: AW: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST - Foundations of OST?<br>
<br>
my two cents:<br>
<br>
a principle is defined as a law superordinated to every other law.<br>
Condition: A certain effect can always be retraced to the same constellation<br>
of facts. (wikipedia).<br>
<br>
In this sense Harrison's principles are definitively no principles at all.<br>
But he was really clever: two martinis and four mundane sentences - and the<br>
whole world is repeating them like a mantra. Mantras, as the east knows<br>
since thousands of years, don't have to have a meaning, the essence lies<br>
behind them. It only gets painful, if you start to worship the mantras<br>
instead of the essence.<br>
<br>
Why is open space so effective? Certainly not because of the mantras. As I<br>
see it, we have to dig deeper:<br>
<br>
I could think of principles like:<br>
<br>
People are basically interested - to engage themselves<br>
- to take responsibility<br>
- to interlink themselves<br>
<br>
That happens as soon as one stops to treat people like obstinate mules.<br>
<br>
And there exist conditions, which foster that, which support this so called<br>
self organisation.<br>
<br>
Certainly open space technology, as it is practised worldwide, is an<br>
excellent condition for self organisation.<br>
<br>
And your 'foundations' define it well.<br>
<br>
Rather often a client spends money for an open space event, and for the<br>
facilitator who proposes open space as a tool for the clients' purposes.<br>
This aspect seems to be underestimated in the debate.<br>
<br>
In my view the facilitator is responsible to link the proposed and choosen<br>
form of the event, in our case open space, with the system and the purpose<br>
of the client. What the client pays for is not the self organisation of his<br>
people, that is only a beautiful side effect, and a bridge to engage people<br>
in the affairs of the client - and more often simultaneously in their own<br>
working conditions.<br>
<br>
I cannot understand the disinterest of many open space facilitators towards<br>
the outcome and its linkage with the system of the client.<br>
<br>
That, in my eyes, is also the reason for the disinterest towards optimal<br>
forms of recording the outcome - and as a visual facilitator I of course<br>
propagate a visual form of protocol.<br>
<br>
The discussions in the os list are mainly conducted with the back to the<br>
clients, and that is a pity.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
mit freundlichen Grüßen<br>
best regards<br>
<br>
Reinhard Kuchenmüller<br>
<br>
VISUELLE PROTOKOLLE<br>
<br>
tel. +39-0566 88929<br>
<a href="http://www.visuelle-protokolle.de" target="_blank">www.visuelle-protokolle.de</a><br>
________________________________________<br>
Von: OSLIST [<a href="mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU</a>] im Auftrag von Artur Silva<br>
[<a href="mailto:arturfsilva@YAHOO.COM">arturfsilva@YAHOO.COM</a>]<br>
Gesendet: Sonntag, 21. Juni 2009 18:25<br>
An: <a href="mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU</a><br>
Betreff: Re: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST - Foundations of OST?<br>
<br>
Larry:<br>
<br>
I am sorry but only today I had the time to answer you.<br>
<br>
We certainly need foundations or principles to Open Space.<br>
<br>
But I prefer the word "foundations" instead of "principles" because, due to<br>
the man of the hat, this word is connected forever (only) with "the 4<br>
principles". And I think that that there are other principles (foundations)<br>
as important as, or even more important than, the 4 so called principles.<br>
<br>
Indeed I think (sorry Harrison) that the expression "The 4 principles" was<br>
badly chosen.<br>
<br>
Because it they are "what always happens" they are not principles at all.<br>
And because we think that we must state the principles in the beginning of<br>
every session (I myself to that the majority o the times - but not always")<br>
and I am more and more convinced that they are useless. You can state them<br>
or nor, and the same things will occur. They are probably "one less thing to<br>
do/state".<br>
<br>
But there are other principles or foundations that are essential, in the<br>
sense that if they are not present different things will happen.<br>
<br>
In the discussion I opened in our wiki some years ago I proposed the<br>
following:<br>
<br>
3. I would suggest, as HO wrote in the old User’s Guide, that OST begins<br>
with:<br>
<br>
* A THEME that is compelling enough, but also general and open enough to<br>
let people dream about and<br>
* A GROUP OF COMMITED PEOPLE (reason for the presences to be almost<br>
always voluntary)<br>
* Enough DIVERSITY in the group<br>
4. To those foundations one can add others that are generally accepted by<br>
all practitioners:<br>
<br>
* The CIRCLE (even if, in some cases, some argue that a "virtual circle"<br>
will do)<br>
* The Bulletin Board<br>
* The Market Place<br>
* The "law of two feet" (one of the most, if not the most important<br>
feature, from where butterflies and bumblebees "germinate" and many<br>
conflicts "evaporate")<br>
* The "four principles" (as I have promised ;-)<br>
<br>
(<a href="http://www.openspaceworld.org/cgi/netwiki.cgi?FoundationsofOST" target="_blank">http://www.openspaceworld.org/cgi/netwiki.cgi?FoundationsofOST</a>)<br>
<br>
If I were to rewrite this today, I would surely suppress the last line. But<br>
all the other "foundations" (including the law of two feet) are essential.<br>
If you suppress one of them you will have a meeting; but not, IMHO, an OST<br>
meeting. But we may not talk at all about the "4 principles" and everything<br>
will happen as usual.<br>
<br>
Best regrsds to all<br>
<br>
Artur<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--- On Thu, 5/28/09, Larry Peterson <<a href="mailto:larry@spiritedorg.com">larry@spiritedorg.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
From: Larry Peterson <<a href="mailto:larry@spiritedorg.com">larry@spiritedorg.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST - Foundations of OST?<br>
To: <a href="mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU</a><br>
Date: Thursday, May 28, 2009, 5:22 PM<br>
<br>
Maybe a “foundation” is another word for how I often describe the<br>
“principles”. I encourage people, when I open a space, to make some<br>
assumptions about the gathering to assume what are stated as principles and<br>
to act on that basis during the event. I think these only become “assumed”<br>
after some evolution of consciousness and I don’t experience most folks in<br>
organizations being there. I think it is important to articulate them, to<br>
influence the “social construction” of the boundaries of the OST event along<br>
with the most important part – the focus question or theme. Yep, it may be<br>
a bit of ritualized behaviour but I think it helps increase the<br>
possibilities what will emerge in the self-organizing process that will<br>
happen anyway. Besides, I (we as facilitators) are one of the “selves” in<br>
the self-organization.<br>
<br>
Larry<br>
<br>
<br>
Larry Peterson & Associates in Transformation<br>
Toronto, Ontario, Canada<br>
<a href="mailto:larry@spiritedorg.com">larry@spiritedorg.com</a><<a href="http://us.mc546.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=larry@spi%0Aritedorg.com" target="_blank">http://us.mc546.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=larry@spi<br>
ritedorg.com</a>> 416.653.4829<br>
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<br>
<br>
<br>
From: OSLIST [mailto:<a href="mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU</a>] On Behalf Of Artur<br>
Silva<br>
Sent: May-27-09 5:54 PM<br>
To: <a href="mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU</a><br>
Subject: Re: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST - Foundations of OST?<br>
<br>
Harrison, Larry and all:<br>
<br>
I am afraid that I continue to read only the messages from this list from<br>
time to time...<br>
<br>
Today, I read this answer from Harrison to a reply from Larry to an original<br>
comment by Harrison. The 3 messages referred are listed below, and I ask you<br>
to first read the parts of those messages that I have transformed in bold.<br>
<br>
(...) Thanks for having done that ;-)<br>
<br>
Now, I am happy that Harrison agrees that "the 4 principles and one law are<br>
neither laws nor principles actually" and that there will come a day when<br>
The Law and The Principles can be assigned to that wonderful status of “One<br>
more thing not to do.”<br>
<br>
But Larry commented, very wisely as usual, about the importance of some form<br>
of “boundaries” or “container” for self-organization.<br>
<br>
So, maybe it is the appropriate time to reintroduce a discussion that I have<br>
tried to introduce many moons ago, about what are the foundations of OST.<br>
<br>
I mean,<br>
<br>
1) if the principles are not "principles" after all, but only what always<br>
happens, and eventually even "one more thing not to do" (and I remember you<br>
that I have done some OST experiments without reference to the Principles -<br>
and all went well as usual), but<br>
<br>
2) Some form of boundary or container is needed<br>
<br>
where this boundary or container does comes from?<br>
<br>
I have proposed to call that the "foundations" (not principles) of OST and<br>
proposed some ideas (that are only preliminary ideas) I would like to read<br>
(again) your opinions about.<br>
<br>
You can found my (preliminary) proposals, of some time ago, here<br>
<a href="http://www.openspaceworld.org/cgi/netwiki.cgi?FoundationsofOST" target="_blank">http://www.openspaceworld.org/cgi/netwiki.cgi?FoundationsofOST</a><br>
<br>
and here<br>
<br>
<a href="http://listserv.boisestate.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0401&L=oslist&P=R23925&I=-3&%0AX=6543D44B5D0A7C3BC4&Y=arturfsilva%40yahoo.com" target="_blank">http://listserv.boisestate.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0401&L=oslist&P=R23925&I=-3&<br>
X=6543D44B5D0A7C3BC4&Y=arturfsilva%40yahoo.com</a>.<br>
<br>
Looking forward to hear from you all<br>
<br>
Warn regards from a warm night in Lisbon<br>
<br>
Artur<br>
<br>
------<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--- On Wed, 5/27/09, Harrison Owen <<a href="mailto:hhowen@verizon.net">hhowen@verizon.net</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
From: Harrison Owen <<a href="mailto:hhowen@verizon.net">hhowen@verizon.net</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST<br>
To: <a href="mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU</a><br>
Date: Wednesday, May 27, 2009, 7:23 AM<br>
Right on Larry – and I found a very curious and embarrassing typo in my<br>
small piece. I said, “They (the Principles and the Law) are descriptive as<br>
opposed to descriptive.” I meant to say,”They are descriptive as opposed to<br>
prescriptive.” Point is neither the Law nor the Principles tell you what to<br>
do – they simply alert everybody to what will be taking place no matter<br>
what. I think that is a useful function, but it really doesn’t change a<br>
thing. In short – there will come a day when The Law and The Principles can<br>
be assigned to that wonderful status of “One more thing not to do.”<br>
<br>
Harrison<br>
<br>
<br>
Harrison Owen<br>
<br>
7808 River Falls Drive<br>
<br>
Potomac, Maryland 20854<br>
<br>
Phone 301-365-2093<br>
<br>
Skype hhowen<br>
<br>
Open Space Training <a href="http://www.openspaceworld.com" target="_blank">www.openspaceworld.com</a><<a href="http://www.openspaceworld.com/" target="_blank">http://www.openspaceworld.com/</a>><br>
<br>
Open Space Institute <a href="http://www.openspaceworld.org" target="_blank">www.openspaceworld.org</a><<a href="http://www.openspaceworld.org/" target="_blank">http://www.openspaceworld.org/</a>><br>
<br>
Personal website <a href="http://www.ho-image.com" target="_blank">www.ho-image.com</a><<a href="http://www.ho-image.com/" target="_blank">http://www.ho-image.com/</a>><br>
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-----Original Message-----<br>
From: OSLIST [mailto:<a href="mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU</a>] On Behalf Of Larry<br>
Peterson<br>
Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 9:44 AM<br>
To: <a href="mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU</a><br>
Subject: Re: Anti Laws of OST<br>
<br>
For me, there is more sense in the “Principles and Law” than non-sense.<br>
Stewart Kauffman explores the importance of some form of “boundaries” or<br>
“container” for self-organization, particularly that of cells. He believes<br>
(with strong scientific evidence) that real physical work only gets done<br>
within some “boundaries” or it dissipates. Cells, he asserts, co-create<br>
their “boundaries” with their environment through self-organizing<br>
relationships in every moment. The boundaries are permeable, constructs,<br>
open to interchange with their environment. (No such thing as a closed<br>
system!)<br>
<br>
Harrison, I believe you have articulated a set of socially constructed<br>
permeable “boundaries” for enhancing human self-organization – including the<br>
focus/theme, principles and law. These set a temporary set of “boundaries”<br>
or a “container” both focused and open that change the perceived conditions<br>
for self-organization at an event or meeting. Self-organization is<br>
happening all the time, in every moment. Our mental maps (in practice) and<br>
feelings shape what we do as we self-organize – what topics we propose and<br>
who we connect to. Are they necessary for self-organization (Open Space) –<br>
no, it is happening all the time as order emerges. Do they (or other<br>
similar statements about the social framework for our self-organizing) help<br>
people to self-organize in exciting and creative ways? I think so.<br>
<br>
Larry<br>
<br>
<br>
Larry Peterson & Associates in Transformation<br>
Toronto, Ontario, Canada<br>
<a href="mailto:larry@spiritedorg.com">larry@spiritedorg.com</a><<a href="http://us.mc546.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=larry@spi%0Aritedorg.com" target="_blank">http://us.mc546.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=larry@spi<br>
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<br>
<br>
From: OSLIST [mailto:<a href="mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU</a>] On Behalf Of Harrison<br>
Owen<br>
Sent: May-25-09 2:59 PM<br>
To: <a href="mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU</a><br>
Subject: Re: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST<br>
<br>
Just to render the whole thing non-sensical, the 4 principles and one law<br>
are neither laws nor principles actually. To be honest they are just my (and<br>
others’) observations of what seemed to be happening in any case. In a word<br>
they are descriptive as opposed to descriptive – You could say it is all a<br>
joke. Rather like “technology” in the phrase Open Space Technology. The<br>
joke, however turned out to be outrageously funny – because somehow or<br>
another truth broke through. We are in serious trouble! Everybody knows that<br>
what happens in Open Space simply can’t happen. Unfortunately it does – and<br>
that makes a joke out of a whole mess of other stuff – like most of what we<br>
think we know about meetings, the management of meetings, and management<br>
itself. Double trouble!!<br>
<br>
Harrison<br>
<br>
<br>
Harrison Owen<br>
<br>
7808 River Falls Drive<br>
<br>
Potomac, Maryland 20854<br>
<br>
Phone 301-365-2093<br>
<br>
Skype hhowen<br>
<br>
Open Space Training <a href="http://www.openspaceworld.com" target="_blank">www.openspaceworld.com</a><<a href="http://www.openspaceworld.com/" target="_blank">http://www.openspaceworld.com/</a>><br>
<br>
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<br>
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