AW: How can we foster sustainable outcomes?

Tue Jun 30 03:11:01 PDT 2009

Dear Kaliya, it IS a new topic.

Reinhard said that often, our discussions here are with the back to our
clients, defending our method, not giving enough emphasis on sustainable
results. He promotes visual documentation. And there must be other ways of
fostering sustainable outcomes better. I was wondering how you guys do that.

Heartfully, C.

Catherine Pfaehler Senn

lic.oec.HSG

Open Space Begleitung

St. Alban-Vorstadt 15

CH - 4052 Basel

+41-(0)76 - 488 15 46

c.pfaehler at open-space-begleitung.ch

www.open-space-begleitung.ch <http://www.open-space-begleitung.ch/> 

  _____  

Von: Kaliya * [mailto:identitywoman at gmail.com] 
Gesendet: Montag, 29. Juni 2009 02:41
An: c.pfaehler at bluewin.ch
Cc: OSLIST at listserv.boisestate.edu
Betreff: Re: How can we foster sustainable outcomes?

WAIT!
 you lost me on this thread - Why? beacuse you changed the subject line...

all I see is "Dear Reinhard, You have a very interesting point..."

I am like WHAT POINT???

 I don't see Reinhard's comments because they are not in this thread - my
e-mail program and many many other people's help them track e-mail threads
(conversations) and if the subject line stays the same...clumps them
together and presents them as a conversation...unfodling one e-mail after
the next. 

Please stop changing subject lines in conversational threasds on this list. 

Thanks, 
-Kaliya

On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 11:15 AM, Catherine Pfaehler <c.pfaehler at bluewin.ch>
wrote:

Dear Reinhard

You have a very interesting point there. I have often wondered how the
sustainable implementation of visible results can be fostered "better" by
me, as in the post-OS-meeting, I often find my clients to focus on different
things than what I would have expected.

Then, again, on the other side, I am well aware that a most important side
result of an OS event is always teambuilding, communication and a stronger
commitment to their organisation by many participants. And if I succeed in
allowing the client to really be responsible for what happens with the
results, then I need to let go after having asked the evaluation questions
and some others like "Does anything need a vessel for coordination now?" and
"What has been developing since the OS event?".

Other opinions??

Heartfully, C.

Catherine Pfaehler Senn
lic.oec.HSG
Open Space Begleitung
St. Alban-Vorstadt 15
CH - 4052 Basel
+41-(0)76 - 488 15 46
c.pfaehler at open-space-begleitung.ch
www.open-space-begleitung.ch

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Reinhard Kuchenmueller [mailto:mail at visuelle-protokolle.de]
Gesendet: Montag, 22. Juni 2009 19:12
Betreff: AW: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST - Foundations of OST?

my two cents:

a principle is defined as a law superordinated to every other law.
Condition: A certain effect can always be retraced to the same constellation
of facts. (wikipedia).

In this sense Harrison's principles are definitively no principles at all.
But he was really clever: two martinis and four mundane sentences - and the
whole world is repeating them like a mantra. Mantras, as the east knows
since thousands of years, don't have to have a meaning, the essence lies
behind them. It only gets painful, if you start to worship the mantras
instead of the essence.

Why is open space so effective? Certainly not because of the mantras. As I
see it, we have to dig deeper:

I could think of principles like:

People are basically interested  - to engage themselves
                                         - to take responsibility
                                         - to interlink themselves

That happens as soon as one stops to treat people like obstinate mules.

And there exist conditions, which foster that, which support this so called
self organisation.

Certainly open space technology, as it is practised worldwide, is an
excellent condition for self organisation.

And your 'foundations' define it well.

Rather often a client spends money for an open space event, and for the
facilitator who proposes open space as a tool for the clients' purposes.
This aspect seems to be underestimated in the debate.

In my view the facilitator is responsible to link the proposed and choosen
form of the event, in our case open space, with the system and the purpose
of the client. What the client pays for is not the self organisation of his
people, that is only a beautiful side effect, and a bridge to engage people
in the affairs of the client - and more often simultaneously in their own
working conditions.

I cannot understand the disinterest of many open space facilitators towards
the outcome and its linkage with the system of the client.

That, in my eyes, is also the reason for the disinterest towards optimal
forms of recording the outcome - and as a visual facilitator I of course
propagate a visual form of protocol.

The discussions in the os list are mainly conducted with the back to the
clients, and that is a pity.

mit freundlichen Grüßen
best regards

Reinhard Kuchenmüller

VISUELLE PROTOKOLLE

tel. +39-0566 88929
www.visuelle-protokolle.de
________________________________________
Von: OSLIST [OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] im Auftrag von Artur Silva
[arturfsilva at YAHOO.COM]
Gesendet: Sonntag, 21. Juni 2009 18:25
An: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Betreff: Re: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST - Foundations of OST?

Larry:

I am sorry but only today I had the time to answer you.

We certainly need foundations or principles to Open Space.

But I prefer the word "foundations" instead of "principles" because, due to
the man of the hat, this word is connected forever (only) with "the 4
principles". And I think that that there are other principles (foundations)
as important as, or even more important than, the 4 so called principles.

Indeed I think (sorry Harrison) that the expression "The 4 principles" was
badly chosen.

Because it they are "what always happens" they are not principles at all.
And because we think that we must state the principles in the beginning of
every session (I myself to that the majority o the times - but not always")
and I am more and more convinced that they are useless. You can state them
or nor, and the same things will occur. They are probably "one less thing to
do/state".

But there are other principles or foundations that are essential, in the
sense that if they are not present different things will happen.

In the discussion I opened in our wiki some years ago I proposed the
following:

3. I would suggest, as HO wrote in the old User’s Guide, that OST begins
with:

 *   A THEME that is compelling enough, but also general and open enough to
let people dream about and
 *   A GROUP OF COMMITED PEOPLE (reason for the presences to be almost
always voluntary)
 *   Enough DIVERSITY in the group
4. To those foundations one can add others that are generally accepted by
all practitioners:

 *   The CIRCLE (even if, in some cases, some argue that a "virtual circle"
will do)
 *   The Bulletin Board
 *   The Market Place
 *   The "law of two feet" (one of the most, if not the most important
feature, from where butterflies and bumblebees "germinate" and many
conflicts "evaporate")
 *   The "four principles" (as I have promised ;-)

(http://www.openspaceworld.org/cgi/netwiki.cgi?FoundationsofOST)

If I were to rewrite this today, I would surely suppress the last line. But
all the other "foundations" (including the law of two feet) are essential.
If you suppress one of them you will have a meeting; but not, IMHO, an OST
meeting. But we may not talk at all about the "4 principles" and everything
will happen as usual.

Best regrsds to all

Artur

--- On Thu, 5/28/09, Larry Peterson <larry at spiritedorg.com> wrote:

From: Larry Peterson <larry at spiritedorg.com>
Subject: Re: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST - Foundations of OST?
To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Date: Thursday, May 28, 2009, 5:22 PM

Maybe a “foundation” is another word for how I often describe the
“principles”.  I encourage people, when I open a space, to make some
assumptions about the gathering to assume what are stated as principles and
to act on that basis during the event.  I think these only become “assumed”
after some evolution of consciousness and I don’t experience most folks in
organizations being there.  I think it is important to articulate them, to
influence the “social construction” of the boundaries of the OST event along
with the most important part – the focus question or theme.  Yep, it may be
a bit of ritualized behaviour but I think it helps increase the
possibilities what will emerge in the self-organizing process that will
happen anyway.  Besides, I (we as facilitators) are one of the “selves” in
the self-organization.

Larry

Larry Peterson & Associates in Transformation
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
larry at spiritedorg.com<http://us.mc546.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=larry@spi
<http://us.mc546.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=larry@spi%0Aritedorg.com> 
ritedorg.com>   416.653.4829
http://www.spiritedorg.com<http://www.spiritedorg.com/>

From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of Artur
Silva
Sent: May-27-09 5:54 PM
To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Subject: Re: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST - Foundations of OST?

Harrison, Larry and all:

I am afraid that I continue to read only the messages from this list from
time to time...

Today, I read this answer from Harrison to a reply from Larry to an original
comment by Harrison. The 3 messages referred are listed below, and I ask you
to first read the parts of those messages that I have transformed in bold.

(...) Thanks for having done that ;-)

Now, I am happy that Harrison agrees that "the 4 principles and one law are
neither laws nor principles actually" and that there will come a day when
The Law and The Principles can be assigned to that wonderful status of “One
more thing not to do.”

But Larry commented, very wisely as usual, about the importance of some form
of “boundaries” or “container” for self-organization.

So, maybe it is the appropriate time to reintroduce a discussion that I have
tried to introduce many moons ago, about what are the foundations of OST.

I mean,

1) if the principles are not "principles" after all, but only what always
happens, and eventually even "one more thing not to do" (and I remember you
that I have done some OST experiments without reference to the Principles -
and all went well as usual), but

2) Some form of boundary or container is needed

where this boundary or container does comes from?

I have proposed to call that the "foundations" (not principles) of OST and
proposed some ideas (that are only preliminary ideas) I would like to read
(again) your opinions about.

You can found my (preliminary) proposals, of some time ago, here
http://www.openspaceworld.org/cgi/netwiki.cgi?FoundationsofOST

and here

http://listserv.boisestate.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0401
<http://listserv.boisestate.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0401&L=oslist&P=R23925&I=-3
&%0AX=6543D44B5D0A7C3BC4&Y=arturfsilva%40yahoo.com> &L=oslist&P=R23925&I=-3&
X=6543D44B5D0A7C3BC4&Y=arturfsilva%40yahoo.com.

Looking forward to hear from you all

Warn regards from a warm night in Lisbon

Artur

------

--- On Wed, 5/27/09, Harrison Owen <hhowen at verizon.net> wrote:

From: Harrison Owen <hhowen at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST
To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Date: Wednesday, May 27, 2009, 7:23 AM
Right on Larry – and I found a very curious and embarrassing typo in my
small piece. I said, “They (the Principles and the Law) are descriptive as
opposed to descriptive.” I meant to say,”They are descriptive as opposed to
prescriptive.” Point is neither the Law nor the Principles tell you what to
do – they simply alert everybody to what will be taking place no matter
what. I think that is a useful function, but it really doesn’t change a
thing. In short – there will come a day when The Law and The Principles can
be assigned to that wonderful status of “One more thing not to do.”

Harrison

Harrison Owen

7808 River Falls Drive

Potomac, Maryland   20854

Phone 301-365-2093

Skype hhowen

Open Space Training www.openspaceworld.com<http://www.openspaceworld.com/>

Open Space Institute www.openspaceworld.org<http://www.openspaceworld.org/>

Personal website www.ho-image.com<http://www.ho-image.com/>

OSLIST: To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives
Visit:
www.listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html<http://listserv.boisestate.
edu/archives/oslist.html>

-----Original Message-----
From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of Larry
Peterson
Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 9:44 AM
To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Subject: Re: Anti Laws of OST

For me, there is more sense in the “Principles and Law” than non-sense.
Stewart Kauffman explores the importance of some form of “boundaries” or
“container” for self-organization, particularly that of cells.  He believes
(with strong scientific evidence) that real physical work only gets done
within some “boundaries” or it dissipates.  Cells, he asserts, co-create
their “boundaries” with their environment through self-organizing
relationships in every moment.  The boundaries are permeable, constructs,
open to interchange with their environment. (No such thing as a closed
system!)

Harrison, I believe you have articulated a set of socially constructed
permeable “boundaries” for enhancing human self-organization – including the
focus/theme, principles and law.  These set a temporary set of “boundaries”
or a “container” both focused and open that change the perceived conditions
for self-organization at an event or meeting.  Self-organization is
happening all the time, in every moment.  Our mental maps (in practice) and
feelings shape what we do as we self-organize – what topics we propose and
who we connect to.  Are they necessary for self-organization (Open Space) –
no, it is happening all the time as order emerges.  Do they (or other
similar statements about the social framework for our self-organizing) help
people to self-organize in exciting and creative ways?  I think so.

Larry

Larry Peterson & Associates in Transformation
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
larry at spiritedorg.com<http://us.mc546.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=larry@spi
<http://us.mc546.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=larry@spi%0Aritedorg.com> 
ritedorg.com>   416.653.4829
http://www.spiritedorg.com<http://www.spiritedorg.com/>

From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of Harrison
Owen
Sent: May-25-09 2:59 PM
To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Subject: Re: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST

Just to render the whole thing non-sensical, the 4 principles and one law
are neither laws nor principles actually. To be honest they are just my (and
others’) observations of what seemed to be happening in any case. In a word
they are descriptive as opposed to descriptive – You could say it is all a
joke. Rather like “technology” in the phrase Open Space Technology. The
joke, however turned out to be outrageously funny – because somehow or
another truth broke through. We are in serious trouble! Everybody knows that
what happens in Open Space simply can’t happen. Unfortunately it does – and
that makes a joke out of a whole mess of other stuff – like most of what we
think we know about meetings, the management of meetings, and management
itself. Double trouble!!

Harrison

Harrison Owen

7808 River Falls Drive

Potomac, Maryland   20854

Phone 301-365-2093

Skype hhowen

Open Space Training www.openspaceworld.com<http://www.openspaceworld.com/>

Open Space Institute www.openspaceworld.org<http://www.openspaceworld.org/>

Personal website www.ho-image.com<http://www.ho-image.com/>

OSLIST: To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives
Visit:
www.listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html<http://listserv.boisestate.
edu/archives/oslist.html>

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