I guess RE: Open Space being badly defined

Tue Jun 16 01:10:31 PDT 2009

Hiya Justin.

Thank you for your post. I wholeheartedly endorse what you say about values
and principles.

Jack

Jack Martin Leith
Bristol, United Kingdom
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2009/6/15 Justin T. Sampson <justin at krasama.com>

> Howdy!
>
> I've been active in the Libertarian Party, which calls itself "the
> party of principle". We talk about "principles" explicitly in
> distinction to "values". It goes something like this...
>
> Values are inherently relative. We all have different values. As
> humans we certainly have a lot of similarity in our basic values, but
> even then they are relative: I value my health, and I value my
> family's health, and I value your health too, but it's hard to say
> that I truly value those all equally. I'm more affected by the illness
> of a friend than the illness of a stranger, and I expect that others
> have a similar experience.
>
> Whenever someone makes an assertion about "values", a Libertarian is
> sure to pipe up and ask, "*whose* values?"
>
> So, with all these different values, what do we do? We have to live
> together one way or another. So we come up with "principles" --
> practical guidelines for living together in this world.
>
> The basic Libertarian principle is, "I won't force you to do anything
> against your will, except to stop you from forcing me to do something
> against my will."
>
> The result is quite interesting -- within the Libertarian Party it is
> not uncommon to find a Catholic businessman sitting next to a bisexual
> exotic dancer working together with great respect for each other, even
> while not being shy to express their views of each others' lifestyles.
> Through a fluke of history the LP tends to be associated with more
> "conservative" views, but we're really very diverse.
>
> The Green Party, in contrast, is explicitly values-based. And
> interestingly, while I agree with all of their Ten Key Values, I
> oppose every point of their platform. It violates the basic principles
> I think are so important for people with different values to live
> together.
>
> I have no intention of starting a political debate here. :) I'm just
> sharing this story about "principles" as distinct from "values". And
> perhaps I'm supporting the idea that the Open Space principles can be
> seen as values-agnostic, and that part of their power is the way they
> support different people working together. And I'm also offering
> another example where a set of principles that I wish were enjoyed
> more universally are held back by popular association with a specific
> set of values.
>
> I guess,
> Justin
>
> --
> Agile Focus - http://agilefocus.com/
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 5:20 AM, Harrison Owen <hhowen at verizon.net> wrote:
>
>>  Erik -- Not to worry about accusation. It is doubtless deserved. But
>> let's go a little bit further. On the question of values, you mention that
>> OST was "rooted in a set of values." That would suggest that we started with
>> a set of values and then designed OST to match -- would it not? But the
>> truth of the matter is rather different. I simply had a conference to run,
>> and was too lazy and lacked sufficient time to do what most people did
>> (Planning groups, etc). To ease the pain and enjoy the Washington Spring I
>> had two martinis on my patio in April of 1985. By the end of the second
>> (martini) OST had been born -- Sit in a circle, create a bulletin board,
>> open a market place, and go to work. In July we (85 folks) "did it" and it
>> worked, which is to say we created a 5 day symposium with multiple sessions
>> all of which took place with little to no fuss. Not a planning committee or
>> management committee in sight. It wasn't that we were anti-planning or
>> management; neither were needed. Of course that raises all sorts of
>> questions about the utility/effectiveness of planning and management but
>> none of us went there at that point. Indeed it was only 4-5 years later that
>> I really took OST seriously and began to consider the questions it raised.
>> Those questions were appalling, for if valid virtually everything I knew
>> from theory and practice about the management of meetings, indeed management
>> itself -- all went poof. Not a comfortable experience only made worse by the
>> fact that I discovered that client groups were able to accomplish in 2 days
>> what had been taking them ten months to two years. The effect on my billable
>> hours was catastrophic. At some level I almost wish that I had never drunk
>> the martinis. I could have made a lot more money and nobody would be
>> thinking that what I did was weird, to say nothing of counterintuitive and
>> heretical (in need of “rebranding” J).
>>
>>
>>
>> A saving grace was the fact that Open Space is fun, and that people are
>> fun to be with in Open Space. That has been true for me all over the world.
>> I guess there are people who don't want to have any fun and run away when
>> folks get excited, innovative, creative and intense -- after all things
>> could get out of control! God love them and for sure they can be as
>> miserable as the want. I won't say a word. But for my self I truly enjoy a
>> full, open, joyous, fun life -- and wouldn't have it any other way. Ah --
>> you got me! My values are sneaking through.
>>
>>
>>
>> Harrison
>>
>>
>>
>> Harrison Owen
>>
>> 189 Beaucaire Ave
>>
>> Camden, ME 04843
>>
>> 207-763-3261 (Summer)
>>
>> 301-365-2093 (Winter)
>>
>> Website www.openspaceworld.com
>>
>> Personal Website www.ho-image.com
>>
>> OSLIST To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options
>> http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of Erik
>> Fabian
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 10:53 PM
>> To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
>>  Subject: Re: I guess RE: Open Space being badly defined
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Harrison,
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for your comments. I am very impressed with OS.
>>
>>
>>
>> I am not trying to accuse you of anything, I just observe that OS is
>> rooted in a set of values.
>>
>> Nothing wrong with that...I think they are good values, openness being the
>> primary one, fun being
>>
>> another...but I hope you can agree with me that not everyone would agree
>> with openness or fun
>>
>> being a positive or even preferential value in every situation and
>> culture...even if OS has worked
>>
>> cross-culturally and we think we know better eh.
>>
>>
>>
>> I also observe OS in theory and practice as being inclusive to any value
>> set (if you can accept the
>>
>> basic ground rules...sort of like the way religious freedom exists in
>> secular America by enforcing
>>
>> that residents not to persecute believers of other faiths)...folks can
>> create a session as they see fit
>>
>> and are bound to express their own values in that session...but getting
>> folks to give an OS event a
>>
>> try in the first place is still a leap for some (well more likely many)
>> folks. For instance if you value
>>
>> strict order and hierarchy then OS might seem like a waste of time.
>>
>>
>>
>> I am full of opinions and could go on but I hope you get my point.
>>
>>
>>
>> I heard that when Zen got started they just asked folks to sit there and
>> do nothing, just
>>
>> observe...that wasn't working so well so they eventually realized that
>> most people needed a bit
>>
>> more structure, so they added few more instructions. Structure seems to
>> have its uses for creating
>>
>> digestible products. And in the end enlightenment is enlightenment is
>> enlightenment is it not?
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Erik
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 10 Jun 2009 16:04:49 -0400, Harrison Owen <hhowen at verizon.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> >Eric -- I am really curious about the "Church of OS." I am very clear
>> that I
>>
>> >never created such a thing, advocated its start, or propagated its
>> future. I
>>
>> >grant you that it began with Great Spirit -- but two martinis will do
>> that
>>
>> >for you. Probably the largest issue is that OS is just too simple. If we
>>
>> >could just make it more complicated, we might get more respect. But at
>> the
>>
>> >end of the day, and on everyday for the past 25 years OST requires only
>> that
>>
>> >you sit in a circle, create a bulletin board, open a market place, and go
>> to
>>
>> >work. I guess there must be values in there somewhere, probably having
>>
>> >something to do with going to work. But even that one doesn't work too
>> well,
>>
>> >because OS usually turns out to be fun. And everybody knows that work is
>> not
>>
>> >fun, and if you are having fun, clearly you are not working. So I am not
>> too
>>
>> >sure about this rebranding stuff. Actually, I think we might want to keep
>> it
>>
>> >all secret. After all if you can do serious work and have fun doing it --
>>
>> >that is obviously illegal, immoral and fattening. You wouldn't want it to
>>
>> >get around.
>>
>> >
>>
>> >Harrison
>>
>> >
>>
>> >Harrison Owen
>>
>> >189 Beaucaire Ave
>>
>> >Camden, ME 04843
>>
>> >207-763-3261 (Summer)
>>
>> >301-365-2093 (Winter)
>>
>> >Website www.openspaceworld.com
>>
>> >Personal Website www.ho-image.com
>>
>> >OSLIST To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options
>>
>> >http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>> >-----Original Message-----
>>
>> >From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of Erik
>>
>> >Fabian
>>
>> >Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 3:15 PM
>>
>> >To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
>>
>> >Subject: Re: Open Space being badly defined
>>
>> >
>>
>> >Hi Kaliya,
>>
>> >
>>
>> >I have visited your sites in the past and appreciate all the information
>> you
>>
>> >share. I also appreciate
>>
>> >you advocacy for getting this community more engaged with the
>> unconference
>>
>> >zeitgeist.
>>
>> >
>>
>> >Leaving the wiki articles aside for a moment, I hear you saying a few
>>
>> >things:
>>
>> >
>>
>> >1) OS needs to update its marketing and repostion its brand if it is not
>> to
>>
>> >be confused with things
>>
>> >like barcamps.
>>
>> >
>>
>> >2) There is confusion among the folks who create "participatory" events
>>
>> >about the tools OS offers
>>
>> >and the values behind those tools. (The problem of definition)
>>
>> >
>>
>> >3) People who care about OS, such as the people on this list, should be
>>
>> >taking care to steward the
>>
>> >OS information that is in the public like on the wiki's. They should act.
>>
>> >
>>
>> >Here is my two-cents:
>>
>> >
>>
>> >I think OS is a beautiful form but is one of many approaches to
>> structuring
>>
>> >participation. The
>>
>> >problem I see is that OS is presented as a set of values more so than a
>>
>> >tool. A minority shares the
>>
>> >values that are expressed by OS and not everyone is in the position to
>> take
>>
>> >the risk necessary to
>>
>> >participate in OS if they don't believe that the outcomes are superior to
>> a
>>
>> >traditional event. Only a
>>
>> >minority of folks are ever going to want to join the church of OS.
>>
>> >
>>
>> >I like that OS is a "technology", and like "open source", it is a
>> technology
>>
>> >that can be used to build
>>
>> >various applications. In that sense the openness is important and it also
>>
>> >affirms that OS is an
>>
>> >insight into something fundamental about getting together in a
>> participatory
>>
>> >way. I think this is
>>
>> >the best move they could have made.
>>
>> >
>>
>> >I am not too worried about definition. There isn't a ton of info on OS
>>
>> >available but there is plenty.
>>
>> >It is in both book form and online. I would note however that the
>> language
>>
>> >and marketing of OS
>>
>> >could use some updating for younger generations.
>>
>> >
>>
>> >Perhaps Barcamps fail as an app, but they are winning as a marketing
>>
>> >campaign. Like any event, I
>>
>> >find that many folks are not going to Barcamps because they are
>>
>> >participatory but because they
>>
>> >are trendy and hosting by folks who are cool. Same thing is happening
>> with
>>
>> >Pecha Kuchas.
>>
>> >
>>
>> >I support you in pointing out that the Wiki is an important front for
>>
>> >controlling perception of OS,
>>
>> >especially in the minds of the IT community. If there are folks on this
>>
>> >board who are invested in
>>
>> >this fight, I second Kaliya advocacy to start editing the entry.
>>
>> >
>>
>> >But in the end I would rather just see more hip OS events, with updated
>>
>> >language, more marketing
>>
>> >savvy, and that reach into more industry sectors.  If Barcamps fail as an
>>
>> >app, then I say so be it...it
>>
>> >is creating an opportunity for other events. At least that is were I am
>>
>> >focusing my efforts.
>>
>> >
>>
>> >Thanks for the ideas. I hope we will have the chance to chat further
>>
>> >sometime.
>>
>> >
>>
>> >Cheers,
>>
>> >Erik
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>> >On Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:29:31 -0700, Kaliya * <identitywoman at gmail.com>
>>
>> >wrote:
>>
>> >
>>
>> >>On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 11:51 PM, Holger Nauheimer (Change Facilitation)
>> <
>>
>> >>holger at change-facilitation.org> wrote:
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >>> Hi Kaliya,
>>
>> >>>
>>
>> >>> although I don't want to interfere with this particular Wikipedia
>>
>> >article,
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >>Why not?
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >>> Iam not very happy with your edition. Let me explain, and let us try
>> to
>>
>> >>> find
>>
>> >>> some common ground:
>>
>> >>>
>>
>> >>> 1. Bar Camps are derived from Open Space Technology. They are a crude
>>
>> >>> adaptation of the principles and leave out a couple of essential
>> elements
>>
>> >>> of
>>
>> >>> OST. But they are still self-organized meetings (with less of magic, I
>>
>> >>> agree)
>>
>> >>>
>>
>> >>> 2. I have never attended a Bar Camp where somebody claimed that this
>> was
>>
>> >ON
>>
>> >>> OST. People say, "this is a Bar Camp."
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >>I agree AND BarCamp's are lame...most people have negative experiences
>> and
>>
>> >>it gives the whole field of participant driven events a bad name.
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >>>
>>
>> >>>
>>
>> >>> 3. I believe that it is good that principles of self-organization
>>
>> >>> ("un-conference") have entered into other areas of life and society,
>>
>> >>> whether
>>
>> >>> one calls it OST, Bar Camp, World Cafï¿½ etc. I don't care much for
>> the
>>
>> >>> names,
>>
>> >>> as long a meeting is about passion and responsibility. In this sense,
>>
>> >>> Harrison, and all we followers have contributed to a better world, or
>> at
>>
>> >>> least, to better meetings.
>>
>> >>>
>>
>> >>> 4. The way you phrased it in your revision ("FooCamp derived some of
>> its
>>
>> >>> process from Open Space Technology but left out key elements like
>> having
>>
>> >>> the
>>
>> >>> agenda making process facilitated and leaving out sharing the 4
>>
>> >principles
>>
>> >>> of Open Space and Law of Two feet that help frame how people act
>>
>> >throughout
>>
>> >>> the day. Closing wrap-up the "evening news" of how the day went was
>> also
>>
>> >>> left out. Since BarCamp is a "replication" of FooCamp it also changed
>> -
>>
>> >>> making yet farther removed from the original method.") focuses on the
>>
>> >>> differences and leaves a kind of negative imprint.
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >>YES! THAT WAS THE POINT.
>>
>> >>I have been to both (FooCamp - twice [in my other life in the technical
>>
>> >>world focused on online digital identity I "rate" high enough to be
>> invited
>>
>> >>to them] - the original BarCamp and several camps since organized by
>> techie
>>
>> >>geeks who wave their arms and sort of hope for it to happen).  I have
>> had
>>
>> >>and watch others have negative experiences (and less then fully realized
>>
>> >>potential of these gatherings) cause they left out key important parts
>> and
>>
>> >>"think" they are doing it well and as if those key elements don't
>> matter.
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >>> But it is great that
>>
>> >>> people do Bar Camps, isn't it? We, as an OST movement shouldn't try to
>>
>> >>> distinguish us from the Bar Camp movement but rather looking more at
>> the
>>
>> >>> common ground.
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >>I completely disagree.
>>
>> >> I think we need to be clear our method has key things that are good,
>>
>> >>essential and not to be forgotten and encourage ADOPTION OF THESE
>> things.
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >>> That will give OST also a greater exposure. Many young people
>>
>> >>> know Bar Camps but they don't know OST. So here is a chance to be a
>>
>> >>> "missionary" and tell them - you can do even more with some simple
>>
>> >>> procedures.
>>
>> >>>
>>
>> >>> 5. I propose (but leave it up to you) to rephrase this particular
>> article
>>
>> >>> in
>>
>> >>> the following way: "FooCamps and BarCamps are based on a simplified
>>
>> >>> variation of Open Space Technology (OST), leaving out some key
>> elements
>>
>> >>> like
>>
>> >>> the 4 principles and the Law of the Two Feet but maintaining the
>>
>> >>> self-organizing character of OST. Other than in classical conference
>>
>> >>> formats, BarCamps and OST rely on the passion and the responsibility
>> of
>>
>> >the
>>
>> >>> participants, putting them into the driver's seat."
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >>Sure - make the edit then.
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >>>
>>
>> >>>
>>
>> >>> 6. I agree with your remarks on the article on Open-space meetings and
>>
>> >have
>>
>> >>> just entered the following comment into the discussion:
>>
>> >>> "I believe this article is redundant and confusing and should be
>> either
>>
>> >>> deleted or merged with [[Open Space Technology]]. What would be reason
>> to
>>
>> >>> keep this one? Open Space meetings don't exist. There is Open Space
>>
>> >>> Technology, and there are meetings that are done in an Open Space like
>>
>> >>> style. But this is too fuzzy for a single article."
>>
>> >>>
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >>Great.
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >>*
>>
>> >>*
>>
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