FW: angry feedback

Nancy Walton-House n_waltonhouse at msn.com
Tue Apr 10 09:36:55 PDT 2007


Tree, I am a mostly silent listener on this listserv for several years now.
I use OS sometimes along with many other methods of communication.  I learn
a lot from listening.

I must say that I have also observed your tone occasionally, certainly not
all or most of the time, as angry and reactive.  I remember an online
conflict with Paul Everett some months ago as similar in process.  When you
write this way, I am stunned and disappointed.  I believe, as you do, that
all people have the right and responsibly to express their thoughts and
feelings when they are strongly held and relevant to the situation at hand.
However, I know there are constructive ways to handle these disputes.

You said "I will not write an expletive to this list but, please, Yana,
please read between the lines:  .....blank (read "fuck") you for taking my
words, without my permission, and publishing them.  You have proven, to me,
that you folks in Kiev are a bunch of bullies." 

You also said "it really pisses me off that Yana stole my words and posted
them.  I don't care if the list knows what I think. . .
 but I feel a little raped by Yana."

I am really offended by this language and the angry, attacking tone of them.
You may not agree with the decision about where to hold this conference but
you do not have the right to attack people for the decision.

Given the tone of your messages to Yana, I am not surprised she defended
herself by sharing your message without counter-attack with the list.

I am sorry this conflict is occurring.  It distresses the online community.

Best Wishes, Nancy Walton-House
Snoqualmie, Washington






-----Original Message-----
From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of Tree
Fitzpatrick
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 9:00 AM
To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Subject: Re: FW: angry feedback

---------------------- Information from the mail header
-----------------------
Sender:       OSLIST <OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU>
Poster:       Tree Fitzpatrick <therese.fitzpatrick at gmail.com>
Subject:      Re: FW: angry feedback
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---

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I don't know your culture, Yana, but it is a violation of my cultural norms
for you to post a private email to a public list.  You have no right to
publish my words without my permission. This reflects the bullying energy I
have sensed all along from the way you folks get things done.  I happen to
be a lawyer so I will point out to you that I own the copyright to my words
and even though it is easy, with the slick of a button, to steal my words
and publish them to this list, it is wrong for you to have done so.

But, as it happens, I am an open person and it is okay with me if people
know I am angry.

I have a response to the person who said "she has been nasty before". . . .
I do not think I was nasty in that letter.  I talked about what I think and
feel.  If, when you read what I think and feel and you have reactive
feelings to my expressionn of MY thoughts and feelings, well, I am not
responsible for your reactions, even if you think, somehow, that I am
responsible for your thoughts and feelings.  I am not.  Not ever.

It is my experience that sharing what I really think is always a gift to a
community.

I will not write an expletive to this list but, please, Yana, please read
between the lines:  .....blank you for taking my words, without my
permission, and publishing them.  You have proven, to me, that you folks in
Kiev are a bunch of bullies.


On 4/10/07, Harrison Owen <hhowen at verizon.net> wrote:
>
> From: Harrison Owen [mailto:hhowen at verizon.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 8:09 AM
> To: 'only.connect at virgin.net'
> Subject: RE: angry feedback
>
> Goodness -- I started OSONOS a long time ago. Must have been 12 years.
> Seemed like a good idea to open a space for people who open space just to
> share what they were doing. First ones were in Washington, DC then it sor=
t
> of migrated around the world. Australia, Germany, Canada, India, Russia,
> and
> now Kiev. Whoever was at the first one decided where to go next. Not very
> complicated. I think the only person who has been to all of them is Brian
> Bainbridge.
>
> As our number increased over the years (more spaceniks), OSONOS's did
> likewise. I am opening a little space in Camden Maine this September, and
> I
> know that other folks are doing, or have done, the same thing. So it seem=
s
> that the World OSONOS has transformed into the OSONOS's of the World. Mor=
e
> Space(s)! Or something. One thing for sure -- they are always fun and ver=
y
> rich no matter who is hosting or where all that takes place.
>
> Harrison
>
> Harrison Owen
> 7808 River Falls Drive
> Potomac, Maryland 20854
> Phone 301-365-2093
> Skype hhowen
> Open Space Training www.openspaceworld.com
> Open Space Institute www.openspaceworld.org
> Personal website www.ho-image.com
> OSLIST: To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the
> archivesVisit: www.listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of
> only.connect at virgin.net
> Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 5:24 AM
> To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
> Subject: Re: angry feedback
>
> Hi all
>
> I am a newbie at all this and have never been to an OSONOS let alone a
> WOSONOS... So please could I have some data (from someone) in order that =
I
> might consider the implications of this email.
>
> 1) How many WOSONOS's have there been (14, I assume, but is this correct)=
?
> 2) Where have they occurred?
> 3) Who decides where the next WOSONOS will be?
> 4) And on what basis?
> 5) What makes an OSONOS a WOSONOS?
>
> Many thanks!
>
> Jon Harvey
> Oxford
> UK
>
> Original Message:
> -----------------
> From: Yana Demenko yana at demenko.info
> Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 10:54:13 +0300
> To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
> Subject: angry feedback
>
>
> Dear OS Community,
>
> WOSonOS hosting team have got a very interesting feedback from Tree
> Fitzpatrick.
>
> I'm not going to comment it but I feel responsibility to share this
> mail with all of you.
>
> Whatever happens is the only thing that could have ...
>
>
> Best regards,
> Yana Demenko
>
> [e-mail] yana at demenko.info
> [post] p.o.box 4B, Kyiv-1, 01001, Ukraine
> [web] www.demenko.info
> [skype] yana_demenko
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> >
> > From: Tree Fitzpatrick [mailto:therese.fitzpatrick at gmail.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 1:21 AM
> > To: GURT Resource Centre for NGO Development
> > Subject: Re: Invitation to 15th Worldwide Open Space on Open Space
> >
> >
> >
> > I have absolutely no interest in attending the OSonOS in Kiev this
> > year.  I am writing to tell you why I am not interested. And I am
> > writing to complain that you have sent me this invitation.  Where
> > did you get my email?  You did not have my permission to use it.
> >
> > I was disappointed that people at OSonOS in Moscow hijacked this
> > important international gathering of OS practitioners from around
> > the world and insisted on taking the event to Kiev this year.  The
> > OSonOS gathering belongs to practitioners around the world and it
> > has norms and traditions that you folks refused to honor when you
> > decided to 'steal' the event to Kiev this year.  A key tradition of
> > OSonOS International has been to move around the world.
> >
> > I understand that one of your organizers was very aggressive in
> > Moscow, insisting on forcing OSonOS to Kiev. This makes me angry
> > and under no circumstances would I attend an event that was
> > demanded like this:  I feel like coming would be tantamount to
> > giving in to a child after he had a tantrum.  You folks in Kiev
> > were free to steal the event. . . but you could never win my
> > support of it.
> >
> > And, parenthetically, as it happens, Raffi did something similar at
> > Halifax OSonOS in 2005.  The group was leaning towards having
> > OSonOS 2006 in Scotland and Raffi stood up and said "I don't care
> > what you people want, there is going to be an international OSonOS
> > in Moscow this year" and the Halifax group gave in to Raffi.  I
> > mention this because now I am wondering if the Slavic world is
> > littered with bullies who think that imposing their will on people
> > is good collaboration?
> >
> > I also wonder if whoever that guy was, it was someone from Kiev who
> > was in Moscow at last year's conference, really gives a shit about
> > the rest of the world of OS practitioners.  I wonder if this guy
> > realizes that senior OS practitioners all over the world have heard
> > about this behavior.
> >
> > I venture to guess that you are going to have a very low turnout at
> > this event.  I suspect lots of people feel the way I do, that the
> > conference was birthed in an atmosphere of coersion, which is NOT
> > open space at all, is it?
> >
> > Please don't send me any more emails.  I have reported you to my
> > email provider as spam.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Love rays,
> > Tree Fitzpatrick
> >
> > http://thecultureoflove.blogspot.com/
> >
> > . . . the great and incalculable grace of love, which says, with
> > Augustine, "I want you to be," without being able to give any
> > particular reason for such supreme and unsurpassable affirmation.
> > -- Hannah Arendt
> >
> > 1335 Montecito Ave Apt. 35
> > Mountain View, California 94043
> > (650) 967-9260
>
>
>
> *
> *
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--=20
Love rays,
Tree Fitzpatrick

http://thecultureoflove.blogspot.com/

 . . the great and incalculable grace of love, which says, with Augustine,
"I want you to be," without being able to give any particular reason for
such supreme and unsurpassable affirmation.  -- Hannah Arendt

1335 Montecito Ave Apt. 35
Mountain View, California 94043
(650) 967-9260

*
*
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I don't know your culture, Yana, but it is a violation of my cultural n=
orms for you to post a private email to a public list.  You have no ri=
ght to publish my words without my permission. This reflects the bullying e=
nergy I have sensed all along from the way you folks get things done. =
 I happen to be a lawyer so I will point out to you that I own the copyrigh=
t to my words and even though it is easy, with the slick of a button, to st=
eal my words and publish them to this list, it is wrong for you to have don=
e so.
<br><br>But, as it happens, I am an open person and it is okay with me if p=
eople know I am angry.<br><br>I have a response to the person who said &quo=
t;she has been nasty before". . . . I do not think I was nasty in that=
 letter.  I talked about what I think and feel.  If, when you rea=
d what I think and feel and you have reactive feelings to my expressionn of=
 MY thoughts and feelings, well, I am not responsible for your reactions, e=
ven if you think, somehow, that I am responsible for your thoughts and feel=
ings.  I am not.  Not ever.
<br><br>It is my experience that sharing what I really think is always a gi=
ft to a community.  <br><br>I will not write an expletive to this list=
 but, please, Yana, please read between the lines:  .....blank you for=
 taking my words, without my permission, and publishing them.  You hav=
e proven, to me, that you folks in Kiev are a bunch of bullies.
<br><br><br><div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 4/10/07, <b class=3D"gmail_=
sendername">Harrison Owen</b> <<a href=3D"mailto:hhowen at verizon.net">hho=
wen at verizon.net</a>> wrote:</span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; =
padding-left: 1ex;">
From: Harrison Owen [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:hhowen at verizon.net">hhowen at ve=
rizon.net</a>]<br>Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 8:09 AM<br>To: '<a href=
=3D"mailto:only.connect at virgin.net">only.connect at virgin.net</a>'<br>Sub=
ject: RE: angry feedback
<br><br>Goodness -- I started OSONOS a long time ago. Must have been 12 yea=
rs.<br>Seemed like a good idea to open a space for people who open space ju=
st to<br>share what they were doing. First ones were in Washington, DC then=
 it sort
<br>of migrated around the world. Australia, Germany, Canada, India, Russia=
, and<br>now Kiev. Whoever was at the first one decided where to go next. N=
ot very<br>complicated. I think the only person who has been to all of them=
 is Brian
<br>Bainbridge.<br><br>As our number increased over the years (more spaceni=
ks), OSONOS's did<br>likewise. I am opening a little space in Camden Ma=
ine this September, and I<br>know that other folks are doing, or have done,=
 the same thing. So it seems
<br>that the World OSONOS has transformed into the OSONOS's of the Worl=
d. More<br>Space(s)! Or something. One thing for sure -- they are always fu=
n and very<br>rich no matter who is hosting or where all that takes place.
<br><br>Harrison<br><br>Harrison Owen<br>7808 River Falls Drive<br>Potomac,=
 Maryland 20854<br>Phone 301-365-2093<br>Skype hhowen<br>Open Space Trainin=
g <a href=3D"http://www.openspaceworld.com">www.openspaceworld.com</a><br>
Open Space Institute <a href=3D"http://www.openspaceworld.org">www.openspac=
eworld.org</a><br>Personal website <a href=3D"http://www.ho-image.com">www.=
ho-image.com</a><br>OSLIST: To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options,=
 view the
<br>archivesVisit: <a href=3D"http://www.listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/o=
slist.html">www.listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html</a><br><br><br=
>-----Original Message-----<br>From: OSLIST [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:OSLIS=
T at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">
OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU</a>] On Behalf Of<br><a href=3D"mailto:only.=
connect at virgin.net">only.connect at virgin.net</a><br>Sent: Tuesday, April 10,=
 2007 5:24 AM<br>To: <a href=3D"mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLI=
ST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
</a><br>Subject: Re: angry feedback<br><br>Hi all<br><br>I am a newbie at a=
ll this and have never been to an OSONOS let alone a<br>WOSONOS... So pleas=
e could I have some data (from someone) in order that I<br>might consider t=
he implications of this email.
<br><br>1) How many WOSONOS's have there been (14, I assume, but is thi=
s correct)?<br>2) Where have they occurred?<br>3) Who decides where the nex=
t WOSONOS will be?<br>4) And on what basis?<br>5) What makes an OSONOS a WO=
SONOS?
<br><br>Many thanks!<br><br>Jon Harvey<br>Oxford<br>UK<br><br>Original Mess=
age:<br>-----------------<br>From: Yana Demenko <a href=3D"mailto:yana at deme=
nko.info">yana at demenko.info</a><br>Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2007 10:54:13 +0300<br=
>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISE=
STATE.EDU</a><br>Subject: angry feedback<br><br><br>Dear OS Community,<br><=
br>WOSonOS hosting team have got a very interesting feedback from Tree<br>
Fitzpatrick.<br><br>I'm not going to comment it but I feel responsibili=
ty to share this<br>mail with all of you.<br><br>Whatever happens is the on=
ly thing that could have ...<br><br><br>Best regards,<br>Yana Demenko<br>
<br>[e-mail] <a href=3D"mailto:yana at demenko.info">yana at demenko.info</a><br>=
[post] p.o.box 4B, Kyiv-1, 01001, Ukraine<br>[web] <a href=3D"http://www.de=
menko.info">www.demenko.info</a><br>[skype] yana_demenko<br><br><br>Begin f=
orwarded message:
<br><br>><br>> From: Tree Fitzpatrick [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:there=
se.fitzpatrick at gmail.com">therese.fitzpatrick at gmail.com</a>]<br>> Sent: =
Tuesday, April 10, 2007 1:21 AM<br>> To: GURT Resource Centre for NGO De=
velopment
<br>> Subject: Re: Invitation to 15th Worldwide Open Space on Open Space=
<br>><br>><br>><br>> I have absolutely no interest in attending=
 the OSonOS in Kiev this<br>> year.  I am writing to tell you =
why I am not interested. And I am
<br>> writing to complain that you have sent me this invitation. &n=
bsp;Where<br>> did you get my email?  You did not have my perm=
ission to use it.<br>><br>> I was disappointed that people at OSonOS =
in Moscow hijacked this
<br>> important international gathering of OS practitioners from around<=
br>> the world and insisted on taking the event to Kiev this year. =
 The<br>> OSonOS gathering belongs to practitioners around the worl=
d and it
<br>> has norms and traditions that you folks refused to honor when you<=
br>> decided to 'steal' the event to Kiev this year.  =
A key tradition of<br>> OSonOS International has been to move around the=
 world.
<br>><br>> I understand that one of your organizers was very aggressi=
ve in<br>> Moscow, insisting on forcing OSonOS to Kiev. This makes me an=
gry<br>> and under no circumstances would I attend an event that was
<br>> demanded like this:  I feel like coming would be tantamo=
unt to<br>> giving in to a child after he had a tantrum.  You =
folks in Kiev<br>> were free to steal the event. . . but you could never=
 win my<br>> support of it.
<br>><br>> And, parenthetically, as it happens, Raffi did something s=
imilar at<br>> Halifax OSonOS in 2005.  The group was leaning =
towards having<br>> OSonOS 2006 in Scotland and Raffi stood up and said =
"I don't care
<br>> what you people want, there is going to be an international OSonOS=
<br>> in Moscow this year" and the Halifax group gave in to Raffi.&=
nbsp; I<br>> mention this because now I am wondering if the Slavic =
world is
<br>> littered with bullies who think that imposing their will on people=
<br>> is good collaboration?<br>><br>> I also wonder if whoever th=
at guy was, it was someone from Kiev who<br>> was in Moscow at last year=
's conference, really gives a shit about
<br>> the rest of the world of OS practitioners.  I wonder if =
this guy<br>> realizes that senior OS practitioners all over the world h=
ave heard<br>> about this behavior.<br>><br>> I venture to guess t=
hat you are going to have a very low turnout at
<br>> this event.  I suspect lots of people feel the way I do,=
 that the<br>> conference was birthed in an atmosphere of coersion, whic=
h is NOT<br>> open space at all, is it?<br>><br>> Please don't=
 send me any more emails.  I have reported you to my
<br>> email provider as spam.<br>><br>><br>> --<br>> Love ra=
ys,<br>> Tree Fitzpatrick<br>><br>> <a href=3D"http://thecultureof=
love.blogspot.com/">http://thecultureoflove.blogspot.com/</a><br>><br>
> . . . the great and incalculable grace of love, which says, with<br>&g=
t; Augustine, "I want you to be," without being able to give any<=
br>> particular reason for such supreme and unsurpassable affirmation.
<br>> -- Hannah Arendt<br>><br>> 1335 Montecito Ave Apt. 35<br>&gt=
; Mountain View, California 94043<br>> (650) 967-9260<br><br><br><br>*<b=
r>*<br>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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lable grace of love, which says, with Augustine, "I want you to be,&qu=
ot; without being able to give any particular reason for such supreme and u=
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