OST and POP (was: The Pros and Cons of OST)

Wed Nov 23 13:33:27 PST 2005

Hi Nancy,
Whatever works best overall for each person or relationship is the  
way to go, I reckon.
For about 20 years until the mid 1980s I felt fairly depressed.
One saving grace for me around 1985 was giving up focussing on  
positivity.
That allowed me to drop into the depression and feel it even more  
fully than I had allowed myself before.
It was such a relief not to be trying to cheer up or even look for  
the positive.
But it might be that some people are more suited to positivity than  
me, so I'm not prescribing my approach for others.

Nowadays I realise that I have difficulty discerning the difference  
between "that beast" you write of feeding  and what is positive.
Many things and experiences I might regard as 'negative' one moment  
could be 'positive' the next, and vice versa.

In my bodywork practice, there is value in attending to all parts of  
a situation or process.
I work gently with a client's body to ever so slightly exaggerate  
postural eccentricities and support positions of comfort.
Then the body usually returns to greater balance and freedom.
If we didn't focus on the 'negative', we'd miss that opportunity.

Open Space Technology appeals to me because all parts of a system are  
accepted and pretty well all voices have space to speak.
In my experience, participants given the opportunity generally come  
to some resolution even (and maybe especially) where there is  
conflict around.

Until Tuesday I might be out of email contact , but will connect  
during that time if I can.
I'm enjoying this conversation and other topics on the list very much.
Thanks for your part in it,
Allison.

On 23/11/2005, at 9:36 PM, Nancy Weatherhead wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> This is a very interesting discussion and one I have to say I have  
> explored
> rather thoroughly.  I have experienced process work and... I do  
> agree that
> comparisons are not generally worthwhile.  However, I will quote  
> (or more
> likely mis-quote) another saying... 'spirit goes where attention  
> flows'.
>
> Ignoring the 'negative' (if you actually are aware it is there) is  
> actually
> a form of attention and will generally 'feed' that beast... and...  
> staying
> in that place can most definitely send one on a long journey into  
> pain.
>
> On the other hand, focusing on what is 'positive' actually does have
> benefits.  It generates enthusiasm, health, wellbeing, enjoyment of  
> life.
>
> And both exist at all times in life and living.  My personal  
> experiences of
> OST have always been deeply positive.
>
> Thanks for inviting this discussion,
> Nancy
> -----Original Message-----
> From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of  
> Change
> Management Toolbook
> Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 3:42 AM
> To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
> Subject: OST and POP (was: The Pros and Cons of OST)
>
> On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 19:11:54 +1100, Allison & Jim Baensch
> <mbody at iinet.net.au> wrote:
>
>> My second paper at the conference will be about high and low dreams -
>> a paper related to Process Oriented Psychology (Arnold Mindell and
>> colleagues).
>> So I am aware of the benefits of not just focussing on the positives
>> of a situation.
>> Thanks for your tasty response,
>> Allison.
>
> Hello Allison,
>
> welcome to the list and thanks for your input. I am thrilled of the
> combination of the two sessions you will host at the conference:
> Open Space Technology and Process Oriented Psychology.
>
> I have been working with OST for a while and just started a couple of
> months ago to involve myself into POP, attending a training with Max
> Schupbach. What one usually does is to compare (even if you don't  
> want to
> compare), and one starts to compare on different levels. I, for  
> example,
> compare the process level of OST gatherings and POP (unfortunately  
> I have
> not yet been exposed to an open forum, but rather to 20-40 people
> processes). More interesting for me, I also compare the meta level.
>
> What I found out is that the underlying assumptions and the  
> foundationss
> of OST and POP match somehow. We just had an interesting discussion  
> in the
> German OS list about the application of Quantum Physics (QP) to social
> processes. POP refers to QP as its main founding theory. In the  
> literature
> on OST, QP has not been mentioned (at least not that I know),  
> although the
> principles, particular the "What ever happens..." are deeply  
> quantum. I
> like the analogies to QP, but as I have learned from physicists,  
> they are
> just analogies / models, and that there is no computer in the world  
> which
> can calculate whether quantum effects guide large systems. My main  
> critic
> of POP is that they (sometimes) take QP not as a model, but as a  
> guiding
> principle for groups. Although that sounds nice, it is not  
> supported by
> current physics, which can only prove the validity of QP to atomic and
> molecular systems.
>
> On the other side, OST (and Appreciative Inquiry/AI) have a lot of
> references to Social Constructivism (SC) and Neurobiology, while  
> POP has
> more implicit assumptions of SC.
>
> OST, then, has its foundation in Complexity or Chaos Theory os Systems
> Thinking (ST). I always feel that ST as a guiding principle is  
> closer to
> the reality of larger social systems then QP. Maybe it will turn  
> out that
> ST is a macro description of QP. POP does not speak in system terms  
> but in
> quantum terms.
>
> However, the practices and the processes are very different. In  
> POP, you
> have the facilitator as an explicit role (which can shift from  
> person to
> person, because POP assumes non-local roles). In OST you basically  
> don't
> have a facilitator (in German, we speak instead of a "Begleiter",  
> which
> means somebody who goes along with somebody or something).
>
> Another difference between the two processes is the degree to which
> conflicts are verbalized and addressed. What I like about OST and  
> AI is
> the ease with which tensions are dealt with. As a consequence, people
> might see that there are alternatives to dealing with problems and
> conflicts in a violent manner. In POP processes, I have seen a lot of
> verbal violence, and grief. One can argue wether this is not part  
> of life,
> and OST and AI neglect the deep divide which exists between people.  
> As my
> spiritual teacher Stephen Gilligan has said: "Life is beautiful, but
> sometimes it hurts like hell."
>
> You see, I have only questions, no answers at all. I am fascinated  
> of both
> approaches, and would like to hear from you how do you perceive the
> difference (and the similarities). If you could send me your  
> presentation
> of POP, I would be quite pleased.
>
> Go on! With best regards
> Holger Nauheimer
>
> Change Facilitation sro
> Panenska 3
> 81103 Bratislava
> Slovakia
> http://www.change-management-toolbook.com
>
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