[Fwd: journalists in an OS _and_ the NON-Guide]
Bill Harris
bill_harris at facilitatedsystems.com
Tue Jan 22 14:20:02 PST 2002
Michael,
Thanks for your thoughtful reply and your encouragement to post this
back to oslist. I appreciate that your knowing most of the folk
involved makes a big difference, and I recognize that the group culture
may be not to care about such things.
If anyone wants to wade through the exchange Michael and I had, feel
free. In general, his comments have an odd number of '>' and mine have
an even number of '>'.
Bill
Michael Herman wrote:
>
> thanks, bill, for this thoughtful response and to the alert that it
> didn't make it to the list... you must have a 'reply-to' preference
> set... i'll post it again to the whole list. but not your response
> here. you can do that if you like. i appreciate that this is all
> possible, in theory, but don't feel any danger of sales and suits in
> this community. one thing that you wouldn't know from the document
> itself is that i have personal connections with most all of the authors.
> have worked with many face-to-face and have had direct, off-list
> conversations with perhaps 80% or more. that doesn't make me
> all-knowing, but does make me feel safe in what i did. also, the
> chances of the osi publishing this for sale without asking for
> permission is remote. then we would be gathering permissions as you
> say... this was merely a simple conversion of pixels. nothing salable
> here, as far as i can tell. finally, it funny that my last pps comment
> is appropriate enough here, but i actually intended it but forgot to add
> his name for florian, who laughed aobut all of this earlier.
>
> thanks again, m
>
> p.s. i think it might be worth posting your response to the list. if
> you do, feel free to post my response here with it, just to close all
> the loops. thanks again.
>
> Bill Harris wrote:
> >
> > Michael Herman wrote:
> > >
> > > thanks to all for your warm responses to the non-guide. feels very much
> >
> > Hello, Michael,
> >
> > Thanks for your note. BTW, the line above makes it appear this went
> > to everyone, but my email header looks like it just came to me.
> >
> > > like the morning after an open space event. finding my way back to
> > > little ol' me after having stood at the edge of so much caring, wisdom,
> > > community, etc... allowing it to flow through me into something new that
> > > really isn't me or mine at all.
> > >
> > > regarding your comments, bill... i think your link to gail's comment is
> > > interesting in theory, but apples and oranges in practice. yep. some of
> > > this might have been better. but we didn't do it that way. sorry. i
> > > hope our care and respect do come through when you get a chance to read
> > > it.
> >
> > Your care and respect do come through, and I think what you did was
> > indeed very worthwhile. In fact, I can think of other groups that
> > might do well by emulating what you've done.
> >
> > In addition to consulting and facilitating, I've done some writing
> > along the way, and I've found writers as a whole to be fairly careful
> > about where and how their words get used. In particular, they're
> > quite mindful that everything they write (even the email you sent me
> > and my reply) is copyrighted, as I understand it. That said, I think
> > we both presume correctly it's very okay to quote each others'
> > messages in replying like this, but creating a compendium is a bit
> > bigger deal.
> >
> > > wondering, too, if *you* have decided not to contribute to this list
> > > because of this compilation? ...and (if so) is this because of what we
> > > did or simply because you've been reminded that this list is already
> > > very public, very worldwide and remains so apparently forever in a fully
> > > searchable archive, even before some jokers decide to compile something?
> > > this seems important to clarify before we draw any conclusions about
> > > our future practice here.
> >
> > I don't have any problems with public lists. I contribute to
> > GRP-FACL, to trdev, and occasionally to learning-org, among others,
> > and I daresay that learning-org (at least) is more public than most
> > others around. I'm not a big player on this list yet because I'm
> > lurking. :-) Indeed, while I've been in open spaces (one led by
> > Harrison in Seattle a year ago springs to mind), I've read his book
> > and several good papers, I've learned from reading on this list, and
> > I've done what could be described as an online OS, I haven't actually
> > (embarrassed pause) facilitated a face to face OS. I'd like to, but
> > the opportunity hasn't presented itself in a way that I recognized.
> > I'll chime in when I have something I think might be of use.
> >
> > (I do think I might be briefer here than elsewhere if people seem to
> > compile others' words without soliciting explicit permission, though.
> > trdev has a fairly clear policy, for example, about such matters, and
> > they self-regulate pretty well--maybe too well. :-)
> >
> > > and just to be clear about ownership... yes the thing is copyrighted...
> > > to the osi, whatever that means, and only so that nobody else outside of
> > > the authors could claim ownership later. the copyright itself was
> > > intended to safeguard the rights of all contributors, as much as
> > > anything can safeguard anyone anymore.
> >
> > I think (I'm definitely not a lawyer, but I have listened to a number
> > of discussions on the topic) that the copyright remains with the
> > individuals, unless you've gotten their written agreement to transfer
> > their copyrights to you. I think you can claim a copyright on the
> > compendium as a whole, but I'm not certain how that works.
> >
> > The risk to you could be that, sometime in the future, the OSI decides
> > to print it out and sell it to people at an OSonOS. Any of the people
> > whose words are in the document could, I think, choose to sue you for
> > a part of the proceeds or more. If you solicit their written
> > permission appropriately, you and the OSI would be covered in that
> > case.
> >
> > > so, another cup of tea?????
> >
> > Sounds good!!!
> >
> > I'm not at all upset; I just thought I saw something that could create
> > troubles (either of the legal sort or of the discouraging people from
> > posting sort), and I wanted to mention it. I almost didn't, because I
> > felt my mentioning it might not fit well in the OSLIST culture or
> > because it might come across as antagonistic. I certainly didn't see
> > any ill intent in what you did, and I suspect my concerns, at least in
> > this instance, are more academic than practical. What you did is, of
> > course, very much in the OS spirit of posting the results at the end
> > of the day. That part was great. Perhaps you did everything you
> > should have; perhaps the permissions idea is still good to protect you
> > (and to allow OSI to print this, should they ever wish to--that sounds
> > like an intriguing idea, actually).
> >
> > > m
> > >
> > > ps... we've gotten one glitch alert so far and will be making
> > > those little fixes as they are discovered. if you want the final
> > > final version, you might wait a week or so.
> > >
> > > pps... i thought your participation was an absolutely masterful
> > > combination of fully present and (almost) totally invisible!
> > > really, i thought we were all very much ourselves... and wonderful!
> >
> > If this was in any way directed at me, thanks. I tried. :-)
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Bill
> >
> > > Bill Harris wrote:
> > > >
> > > > ICA Taiwan wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Winston's and Lisa's comments were very helpful - especially having
> > > > > her as a participant. I would emphasize getting permission from the
> > > > > group for any photos or quotes/comments and ask the journalist to not
> > > > > use any names without permission from that person. In Indonesia
> > > >
> > > > I glanced at part of the NON-Guide and, like many here, found it
> > > > potentially very helpful.
> > > >
> > > > I did have a twinge, though, for it appeared to be a compendium of
> > > > copyrighted material that was assembled without explicit permission of
> > > > its creators. In the spirit of Gail's comments above, I wonder if it
> > > > would behoove the compilers to solicit and store written permissions
> > > > from each of the people they included just to protect themselves. (It
> > > > would have been better to have done that in advance, but now is better
> > > > than never.)
> > > >
> > > > That would also let others know their rights were respected in this
> > > > forum; otherwise some may decide not to contribute.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > >
> > > > Bill
> > > >
> > > > PS: If those permissions were solicited and given, then forgive my
> > > > presumptiousness. In that case, you might make it clearer in the
> > > > document, though.
> > > > -
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Michael Herman
> > > 300 West North Avenue #1105
> > > Chicago IL 60610
> > > 312-280-7838 voice
> > > 312-280-7837 fax
> > >
> > > http://www.michaelherman.com
> > > ...an invitation.
> >
> > --
> > Bill Harris 3217 102nd Place SE
> > Facilitated Systems Everett, WA 98208 USA
> > http://facilitatedsystems.com/ phone: +1 425 337-5541
>
> --
>
> Michael Herman
> 300 West North Avenue #1105
> Chicago IL 60610
> 312-280-7838 voice
> 312-280-7837 fax
>
> http://www.michaelherman.com
> ...an invitation.
--
Bill Harris 3217 102nd Place SE
Facilitated Systems Everett, WA 98208 USA
http://facilitatedsystems.com/ phone: +1 425 337-5541
*
*
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