[OSList] OSList Digest, Vol 100, Issue 25
Christine Whitney-Sanchez
christine at innovationpartners.com
Thu Aug 22 08:28:40 PDT 2019
So good to see old friends, here!
Harrison, this discussion reminds me of sitting with you after opening the space for an event in Phoenix 15 years ago. This was right before you went to take your nap.
We were talking about why you decided to offer OST for free. At that point, I was on the Council of Trustees for the Chaordic Commons, where we were discussing the degree to which the "Chaordic Concept”, which Dee Hock codified, should be proprietary. In addition to all the noble reasons you made OST an open source offering, you also mentioned that you weren’t cut out for the inevitable administrative and legal hassles of protecting a certification. Much better to just open more space.
Sending you much love and all the way down,
Christine
On Aug 21, 2019, at 3:43 PM, Barry Owen via OSList <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
Yes Anne!
Just keep on Opening Space!
That's a nice "short form" for the long form of our invitation to WOSONOS.
Great to see you here!
b
Barry Owen
Real Estate Strategist
CEO/Principal Broker
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Office: 615-502-2080 <>
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On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 3:42 PM anne stadler via OSList <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>> wrote:
Certification:
Thank you dear Owens!! As a “first follower”, I couldn’t agree more!!!! Please folks, turn your attention to opening space, wherever you are! We need to open space much more than we need to certify people. As I observed in Goa India in 1989 at the first public offering of Open Space Technology, “Oh sure! This is what people do when they get together to accomplish something!”
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Okay...Forget Certification then...How about Co-Creating
a NEW OST ASSOCIATION? Such as...THE International Association
for Peace and Human Understanding...? (Harrison Owen)
2. Re: Okay...Forget Certification then...How about Co-Creating
a NEW OST ASSOCIATION? Such as...THE International Association
for Peace and Human Understanding...? (Paul Nunesdea)
3. Re: Okay...Forget Certification then...How about Co-Creating
a NEW OST ASSOCIATION? Such as...THE International Association
for Peace and Human Understanding...? (Harrison Owen)
4. Re: Okay...Forget Certification then...How about Co-Creating
a NEW OST ASSOCIATION? Such as...THE International Association
for Peace and Human Understanding...? (Chris Corrigan)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 21:15:19 +0000 (UTC)
From: Harrison Owen <hhowen at verizon.net <mailto:hhowen at verizon.net>>
To: oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
Subject: Re: [OSList] Okay...Forget Certification then...How about
Co-Creating a NEW OST ASSOCIATION? Such as...THE International
Association for Peace and Human Understanding...?
Message-ID: <156805336.1380681.1566335719818 at mail.yahoo.com <mailto:156805336.1380681.1566335719818 at mail.yahoo.com>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Barry -- your notion about "scale" -- numbers of people -- is pretty close to the accepted wisdom. Summed up in the old refrain, Some day we got to get organized! Especially when we get bigger. Certainly makes sense, keeps a lot of MBA programs in business, but simply doesn't accord with my experience. First in terms of my usual standard reference... Open Spaces. The curious, but I think instructive thing, is that every Open Space that I have facilitated or been a part of -- regardless of size (5- 2108) has been unnervingly the same. 10-15 minutes for opening, 20 min for issue announcement, 30 minutes for market place arrangements (combinations, reschedules, cup of coffee) 1 hour to start of first session -- and from there on it all happened by itself. This has even been true in several situation where a very hard working planning committee worked out every detail in accord with the best meeting management protocols. Looked great on paper, immediately fell apart, and just as quickly
self organized, despite their best efforts. Weird!
Then there is the observed behavior and accomplishments of what we might vaguely call, "The Open Space Community." If you put aside all question of how we got there, the accomplishments I believe are rather impressive. Indeed there are very few HR consulting groups that could come anywhere close. Just take the numbers: 35 years in business, minimum 500,000 "interventions," millions of participants, thousands of facilitators, massive coverage by the international press, and a multitude of imitators -- which is always a complement in a weird way. Not bad if I do say so myself. AND it might be pointed out that all of this took place without a shred of formal organization, no institutional funding, no defined leadership structure, zero effort at standardization or certification. Why would anybody want to change that ... even if you could?
And then in the REAL WORLD... That would be Corporations, Governments, NGOs -- I can give you any number of examples where such organizations spent millions of $$$ to get organized, failed, -- and then opened some space to accomplish in several days where they had failed miserably for years. I "did" a few of those personally, but in most cases (if I was directly involved) I advised that they save a lot of money, buy the book, and do it. And of course there were any number of situations where sensitive participants of one OST simply went out and "did" it again without benefit of book, training, certification. Marvelous!
And if you want "testimony" from a different, and presumably unbiased source, check out Dee Hock, "Chaordic Organizations."
Harrison (and -- of course -- also your father.)
-----Original Message-----
From: Barry Owen via OSList <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>>
To: World wide Open Space Technology email list <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>>
Cc: Barry Owen <barryowenost at gmail.com <mailto:barryowenost at gmail.com>>; Michael M Pannwitz <mmpannwitz at gmail.com <mailto:mmpannwitz at gmail.com>>
Sent: Tue, Aug 20, 2019 11:10 am
Subject: Re: [OSList] Okay...Forget Certification then...How about Co-Creating a NEW OST ASSOCIATION? Such as...THE International Association for Peace and Human Understanding...?
I've been mulling this over for months now.?Have come to what I think is a conclusion that blaming the mayhem on "Organisations" is akin to "shooting the messenger" . . . making it a martyr.After all, any time there's more than one person present, it's essentially the birth of an "organisation".I think the real problem is that of scale.It seems to me that, as the number "Members" increases in any "gathering", the perceived "need" for organisation becomes more prevalent.As that dynamic evolves, the people seem to "forget" what "brung'm here" . . . That is . . . those things that have never changed
BreathCircleBulletin BoardMarketplaceExpect to be (be prepared to be) surprised
fall by the wayside as more and more "social constructs" emerge thereby converting Open Space to Command and control.Oh yeah . . . and "keeping up with the Joneses"
My opinion is that the "mandate" of "just open more space anywhere and everywhere" is an open invitation for all of us (humanity) to remember to:?
BreatheName the Theme (Important, Complex, Diversity of People/Opinions, potential for conflict, need for resolution NOW)Invite whoever caresGather in a circleCreate the Bulletin BoardOpen the marketplaceGet to work!
and the best news is that everyone already knows how to do this . . . we've just gotta remind them.
So . . . I think more organisations will "get" this as we open more space every day.?
They're not broken or corrupt!?
Bless their hearts . . . They're simply forgetful, and all we've gotta do is remind them.
or something . . .?
b
On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 5:03 AM Michael M Pannwitz via OSList <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>> wrote:
Dear all,
my assumption regarding "organisation" is that they are the work of the
devil.
They are omnipresent. There is practically nothing that can do without
an "organisation". Government, churches, mafia, health care, schools,
prisons, military, restaurants, foundations, associations, universities,
concentration camps, secret service, sports, museums, shipyards,
daycare, labour unions, political parties, courts, NGOs, NATO, ... you
name it.
Thinking beyond "organisations" seems impossible.
Working for, in, against, with, through, in spite of, etc.
"organisations" is omnipresent.
And to make things even worse, they all are selforganising, right?
And despite or because of their existence we have wars, starvation,
pollution, glaciers disappearing, crime, corruption, you name it.
Now, organisations not created by the devil but lets say by God would
not create such a mess.
One of the most lucrative businesses just about everywhere is
consulting. Huge consulting firms work with/for/ect. huge businesses,
governments, NGOs. Millions of folks work in that field helping them to
become better, faster, etc. in the business they are involved in.
Now, is ost something that consulting firms are into?
There are some forms of "systems" such as neighborhoods, circles of
friends, collegial counselling groups, OSonOS (local, regional,
worldwide), people playing soccer with a tin can on a vacant lot,
families, demonstrations (HongKong, Fridays for Future...), Stammtische...
I smile in such settings, happy myself, grow myself... in such
"settings" and also frustrate myself now and then. Especially when
"control" enters the stage.
And at some point many such "systems" or "settings" ossify when they
take on the form of "organisations". In other words, the devil takes over.
Some of us smell that when it approaches and say "no". And move on or
drop out or fight or...
Ok, this is stuff that comes up when I look at my "assumption" regarding
"organisation".
I would like to hear more about your "assumptions" that come up when
"organisation" enters your mind.
Greetings from Berlin
mmp
Am 20.08.2019 um 00:04 schrieb R Chaffe via OSList:
> Chris,
> I look forward to Mark?s reply to your question.? It seems to me that that the question mixes up the who and the what.? Mark uses a few examples including a mechanic, the first question I have is what experience the trade person has my second is an example of their work.? OST is at one level about the ?how? the job is done and I think that is one level the question comes from.? Being able to Open Space and engage effectively with the sponsor and the community of concern is an other level again.
>
> There is a level of trust between the sponsor and the facilitator that the result the sponsor wants will be delivered.? The sponsor might ask how did you do that? I suggest that they are more interested on what you as facilitator delivered based on the contract.
>
> In many ways focusing on the how is counter productive the ?what? is the thing that pays the bills and builds reputations.
>
> If my thinking is correct the struggle is to define a professional facilitator who can deliver is the issue not what tools they use when it comes to a contract.
>
> Regards
> Rob
>
>> On 20 Aug 2019, at 2:31 am, Chris Corrigan via OSList <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>> wrote:
>>
>> Whenever I want to know if my work of Hosting an Open Space Technology meeting was useful, I give the participants a form that sinplay says ?complete the following sentence. As a result of this meeting...?
>>
>> The only people who should be judging the efficacy of an OST meeting are the people who called it in the first place to get their work done. In my experience, they are happy if the meeting has helped them.
>>
>> My work is always directed towards client needs. Some times we do Open Space. Sometimes we do it in a way that would drive a ?by the book? person crazy. But it?s about the clients. I doubt there is a way my process could be formalized in a way that works better for my clients than sitting down and listening to their needs.
>>
>> There is already a network of Open Space Institutes who steward this practice. There is an international association of facilitators who can join if you want certification.
>>
>> I find myself constantly wanting to defend this radical openness. Mark, what is behind your string desire for something more formal than what we already have?
>>
>> Chris.
>>
>>
>> _____________
>> CHRIS CORRIGAN
>> www.chriscorrigan.com <http://www.chriscorrigan.com/>
>>
>>> On Aug 19, 2019, at 8:29 AM, Mark Carmel via OSList <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>> wrote:
>>>
>>> 1st of all thank you for everyone who gave me feedback on my big idea for certification. It was sincerely appreciated. However I can see it was something that did not? Resonate well.
>>>
>>> Open space technology has clearly set the standard for the facilitation of peace and human understanding. It is such a powerful and simple tool but highly complex. As Harrison says..? chaos plows the fields of the mind so that new ideas can grow... I think there is ample chaos for us to tackle right now.
>>>
>>> I think it is highly important for the leadership of our open space world to make a decision now while we still have Harrison among us as a living spirit. Because we have already set the standards why not cement the standards and turn it into an everlasting association that could be organized to deliver training, etc. To advance the mission of human peace and understanding in a more organized way?
>>>
>>> If you want to be a beautician or a mechanic or a rocket scientist or a city manager there are associations for that .
>>>
>>> Why not an association for open space technology practitioners to define the standards, the ethics, code of conduct, the way that Harrison has already articulated them, but to formalize them and help us get organized and stay organized until we get the job done?
>>>
>>> Respectfully submitted,
>>> Mark Carmel
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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--
Michael M Pannwitz
Draisweg 1, 12209 Berlin, Germany
++49 - 30-772 8000
mmpannwitz at gmail.com <mailto:mmpannwitz at gmail.com>
Check out the Open Space World Map presently showing 487 resident Open
Space Workers in 76 countries working in a total of 142 countries worldwide
www.openspaceworldmap.org <http://www.openspaceworldmap.org/>
At my publisher you find books and task cards on open space, most in
German, some in English, some as ebooks, some multilingual
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--
Barry OwenInviter - Facilitator/Practicer of Open Space Technology?Opening and Holding safe space for peopl <https://www.google.com/maps/search/afe+space+for+peopl?entry=gmail&source=g>e and organizations to self-organize around important issues and opportunities.?Invite - Listen - Love
615-568-2123BarryOwen.us
4004 Hillsboro Pike B234Nashville, TN 37215_______________________________________________
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 19:25:18 +0100
From: Paul Nunesdea <nunesdea at me.com <mailto:nunesdea at me.com>>
To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
<oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>>
Subject: Re: [OSList] Okay...Forget Certification then...How about
Co-Creating a NEW OST ASSOCIATION? Such as...THE International
Association for Peace and Human Understanding...?
Message-ID: <C99C4906-CA1A-4CBD-89E0-6A8934BD5B01 at me.com <mailto:C99C4906-CA1A-4CBD-89E0-6A8934BD5B01 at me.com>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Greetings HO, I have been away from this list except when something extraordinarily contentious happens here, and I got attracted by the certification subject.
Yes, just to say I am among those that used OST by reading your book + an extremely helpful and long coaching call from Lisa Heft - the Open Space Community's Mary Magdalene.
Since then the power of self-organization never ceased to amaze me, and to be honest my most precious ally when big challenges are faced.
I have written books about group facilitation in my mother languages, I argue OST is the ultimate group facilitation methodology, inspired by seminal work of very dear IAF colleagues (and your disciples?) here in Europe, Gerardo de Luzemberg and Jean-Philippe Poupard.
And your answer below, reinforces my faith on this absolute mystery of self-organization that have been helping me so much.
Tanks for the unsuspected Dee Hock's book recommendation, I will read it next.
I apologize Listers if this other unsuspected reference below has already been discussed here before, but I recently re-discovered Lao Tzu book Tao Te Ching (the book of the way) and cannot think about the resemblances with your discoveries HO.
If you like listening instead of reading, this is an amazing free resource on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2UYch2JnO4 <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2UYch2JnO4>
I suspect Lao Tzu's interpretation of what the master will do about OST's certification is just about what you have written below, beloved father.
Best wishes
Paul Nunesdea | Paulo Nunes de Abreu
https://www.architectingcollaboration.com/ <https://www.architectingcollaboration.com/>
Sent from my iPhone
> On 20 Aug 2019, at 22:15, Harrison Owen via OSList <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>> wrote:
>
> Barry -- your notion about "scale" -- numbers of people -- is pretty close to the accepted wisdom. Summed up in the old refrain, Some day we got to get organized! Especially when we get bigger. Certainly makes sense, keeps a lot of MBA programs in business, but simply doesn't accord with my experience. First in terms of my usual standard reference... Open Spaces. The curious, but I think instructive thing, is that every Open Space that I have facilitated or been a part of -- regardless of size (5- 2108) has been unnervingly the same. 10-15 minutes for opening, 20 min for issue announcement, 30 minutes for market place arrangements (combinations, reschedules, cup of coffee) 1 hour to start of first session -- and from there on it all happened by itself. This has even been true in several situation where a very hard working planning committee worked out every detail in accord with the best meeting management protocols. Looked great on paper, immediately fell apart, and just as quickl
y self organized, despite their best efforts. Weird!
>
> Then there is the observed behavior and accomplishments of what we might vaguely call, "The Open Space Community." If you put aside all question of how we got there, the accomplishments I believe are rather impressive. Indeed there are very few HR consulting groups that could come anywhere close. Just take the numbers: 35 years in business, minimum 500,000 "interventions," millions of participants, thousands of facilitators, massive coverage by the international press, and a multitude of imitators -- which is always a complement in a weird way. Not bad if I do say so myself. AND it might be pointed out that all of this took place without a shred of formal organization, no institutional funding, no defined leadership structure, zero effort at standardization or certification. Why would anybody want to change that ... even if you could?
>
> And then in the REAL WORLD... That would be Corporations, Governments, NGOs -- I can give you any number of examples where such organizations spent millions of $$$ to get organized, failed, -- and then opened some space to accomplish in several days where they had failed miserably for years. I "did" a few of those personally, but in most cases (if I was directly involved) I advised that they save a lot of money, buy the book, and do it. And of course there were any number of situations where sensitive participants of one OST simply went out and "did" it again without benefit of book, training, certification. Marvelous!
>
> And if you want "testimony" from a different, and presumably unbiased source, check out Dee Hock, "Chaordic Organizations."
>
> Harrison (and -- of course -- also your father.)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Barry Owen via OSList <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>>
> To: World wide Open Space Technology email list <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>>
> Cc: Barry Owen <barryowenost at gmail.com <mailto:barryowenost at gmail.com>>; Michael M Pannwitz <mmpannwitz at gmail.com <mailto:mmpannwitz at gmail.com>>
> Sent: Tue, Aug 20, 2019 11:10 am
> Subject: Re: [OSList] Okay...Forget Certification then...How about Co-Creating a NEW OST ASSOCIATION? Such as...THE International Association for Peace and Human Understanding...?
>
> I've been mulling this over for months now.
> Have come to what I think is a conclusion that blaming the mayhem on "Organisations" is akin to "shooting the messenger" . . . making it a martyr.
> After all, any time there's more than one person present, it's essentially the birth of an "organisation".
> I think the real problem is that of scale.
> It seems to me that, as the number "Members" increases in any "gathering", the perceived "need" for organisation becomes more prevalent.
> As that dynamic evolves, the people seem to "forget" what "brung'm here" . . . That is . . . those things that have never changed
>
> Breath
> Circle
> Bulletin Board
> Marketplace
> Expect to be (be prepared to be) surprised
>
> fall by the wayside as more and more "social constructs" emerge thereby converting Open Space to Command and control.
> Oh yeah . . . and "keeping up with the Joneses"
>
> My opinion is that the "mandate" of "just open more space anywhere and everywhere" is an open invitation for all of us (humanity) to remember to:
>
> Breathe
> Name the Theme (Important, Complex, Diversity of People/Opinions, potential for conflict, need for resolution NOW)
> Invite whoever cares
> Gather in a circle
> Create the Bulletin Board
> Open the marketplace
> Get to work!
>
> and the best news is that everyone already knows how to do this . . . we've just gotta remind them.
>
> So . . . I think more organisations will "get" this as we open more space every day.
>
> They're not broken or corrupt!
>
> Bless their hearts . . . They're simply forgetful, and all we've gotta do is remind them.
>
> or something . . .
>
> b
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 5:03 AM Michael M Pannwitz via OSList <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>> wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> my assumption regarding "organisation" is that they are the work of the
> devil.
> They are omnipresent. There is practically nothing that can do without
> an "organisation". Government, churches, mafia, health care, schools,
> prisons, military, restaurants, foundations, associations, universities,
> concentration camps, secret service, sports, museums, shipyards,
> daycare, labour unions, political parties, courts, NGOs, NATO, ... you
> name it.
> Thinking beyond "organisations" seems impossible.
> Working for, in, against, with, through, in spite of, etc.
> "organisations" is omnipresent.
> And to make things even worse, they all are selforganising, right?
> And despite or because of their existence we have wars, starvation,
> pollution, glaciers disappearing, crime, corruption, you name it.
> Now, organisations not created by the devil but lets say by God would
> not create such a mess.
> One of the most lucrative businesses just about everywhere is
> consulting. Huge consulting firms work with/for/ect. huge businesses,
> governments, NGOs. Millions of folks work in that field helping them to
> become better, faster, etc. in the business they are involved in.
>
> Now, is ost something that consulting firms are into?
>
> There are some forms of "systems" such as neighborhoods, circles of
> friends, collegial counselling groups, OSonOS (local, regional,
> worldwide), people playing soccer with a tin can on a vacant lot,
> families, demonstrations (HongKong, Fridays for Future...), Stammtische...
> I smile in such settings, happy myself, grow myself... in such
> "settings" and also frustrate myself now and then. Especially when
> "control" enters the stage.
> And at some point many such "systems" or "settings" ossify when they
> take on the form of "organisations". In other words, the devil takes over.
> Some of us smell that when it approaches and say "no". And move on or
> drop out or fight or...
>
> Ok, this is stuff that comes up when I look at my "assumption" regarding
> "organisation".
>
> I would like to hear more about your "assumptions" that come up when
> "organisation" enters your mind.
>
> Greetings from Berlin
> mmp
>
>
>
> Am 20.08.2019 um 00:04 schrieb R Chaffe via OSList:
> > Chris,
> > I look forward to Mark?s reply to your question. It seems to me that that the question mixes up the who and the what. Mark uses a few examples including a mechanic, the first question I have is what experience the trade person has my second is an example of their work. OST is at one level about the ?how? the job is done and I think that is one level the question comes from. Being able to Open Space and engage effectively with the sponsor and the community of concern is an other level again.
> >
> > There is a level of trust between the sponsor and the facilitator that the result the sponsor wants will be delivered. The sponsor might ask how did you do that? I suggest that they are more interested on what you as facilitator delivered based on the contract.
> >
> > In many ways focusing on the how is counter productive the ?what? is the thing that pays the bills and builds reputations.
> >
> > If my thinking is correct the struggle is to define a professional facilitator who can deliver is the issue not what tools they use when it comes to a contract.
> >
> > Regards
> > Rob
> >
> >> On 20 Aug 2019, at 2:31 am, Chris Corrigan via OSList <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>> wrote:
> >>
> >> Whenever I want to know if my work of Hosting an Open Space Technology meeting was useful, I give the participants a form that sinplay says ?complete the following sentence. As a result of this meeting...?
> >>
> >> The only people who should be judging the efficacy of an OST meeting are the people who called it in the first place to get their work done. In my experience, they are happy if the meeting has helped them.
> >>
> >> My work is always directed towards client needs. Some times we do Open Space. Sometimes we do it in a way that would drive a ?by the book? person crazy. But it?s about the clients. I doubt there is a way my process could be formalized in a way that works better for my clients than sitting down and listening to their needs.
> >>
> >> There is already a network of Open Space Institutes who steward this practice. There is an international association of facilitators who can join if you want certification.
> >>
> >> I find myself constantly wanting to defend this radical openness. Mark, what is behind your string desire for something more formal than what we already have?
> >>
> >> Chris.
> >>
> >>
> >> _____________
> >> CHRIS CORRIGAN
> >> www.chriscorrigan.com <http://www.chriscorrigan.com/>
> >>
> >>> On Aug 19, 2019, at 8:29 AM, Mark Carmel via OSList <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> 1st of all thank you for everyone who gave me feedback on my big idea for certification. It was sincerely appreciated. However I can see it was something that did not Resonate well.
> >>>
> >>> Open space technology has clearly set the standard for the facilitation of peace and human understanding. It is such a powerful and simple tool but highly complex. As Harrison says.. chaos plows the fields of the mind so that new ideas can grow... I think there is ample chaos for us to tackle right now.
> >>>
> >>> I think it is highly important for the leadership of our open space world to make a decision now while we still have Harrison among us as a living spirit. Because we have already set the standards why not cement the standards and turn it into an everlasting association that could be organized to deliver training, etc. To advance the mission of human peace and understanding in a more organized way?
> >>>
> >>> If you want to be a beautician or a mechanic or a rocket scientist or a city manager there are associations for that .
> >>>
> >>> Why not an association for open space technology practitioners to define the standards, the ethics, code of conduct, the way that Harrison has already articulated them, but to formalize them and help us get organized and stay organized until we get the job done?
> >>>
> >>> Respectfully submitted,
> >>> Mark Carmel
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> OSList mailing list
> >>> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:OSList at lists.openspacetech.org>
> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org>
> >>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
> >>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org <http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org>
> >>> Past archives can be viewed here: http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org <http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> OSList mailing list
> >> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:OSList at lists.openspacetech.org>
> >> To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org>
> >> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
> >> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org <http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org>
> >> Past archives can be viewed here: http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org <http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org>
> > _______________________________________________
> > OSList mailing list
> > To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:OSList at lists.openspacetech.org>
> > To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org>
> > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
> > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org <http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org>
> > Past archives can be viewed here: http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org <http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org>
> >
>
> --
> Michael M Pannwitz
> Draisweg 1, 12209 Berlin, Germany
> ++49 - 30-772 8000
> mmpannwitz at gmail.com <mailto:mmpannwitz at gmail.com>
>
>
> Check out the Open Space World Map presently showing 487 resident Open
> Space Workers in 76 countries working in a total of 142 countries worldwide
> www.openspaceworldmap.org <http://www.openspaceworldmap.org/>
>
> At my publisher you find books and task cards on open space, most in
> German, some in English, some as ebooks, some multilingual
> https://www.westkreuz-verlag.de/de/Kommunikation <https://www.westkreuz-verlag.de/de/Kommunikation>
> _______________________________________________
> OSList mailing list
> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:OSList at lists.openspacetech.org>
> To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org>
> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org <http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org>
> Past archives can be viewed here: http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org <http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org>
>
>
> --
> Barry Owen
> Inviter - Facilitator/Practicer of Open Space Technology
> Opening and Holding safe space for people and organizations to self-organize around important issues and opportunities.
> Invite - Listen - Love
>
> 615-568-2123
> BarryOwen.us
>
> 4004 Hillsboro Pike B234
> Nashville, TN 37215
> _______________________________________________
> OSList mailing list
> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:OSList at lists.openspacetech.org>
> To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org>
> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org <http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org>
> Past archives can be viewed here: http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org <http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org>
> _______________________________________________
> OSList mailing list
> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:OSList at lists.openspacetech.org>
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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 14:38:06 -0400
From: "Harrison Owen" <hhowensr at gmail.com <mailto:hhowensr at gmail.com>>
To: "'Paul Nunesdea'" <p.nunesdea at architectingcollaboration.com <mailto:p.nunesdea at architectingcollaboration.com>>,
"'World wide Open Space Technology email list'"
<oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>>
Subject: Re: [OSList] Okay...Forget Certification then...How about
Co-Creating a NEW OST ASSOCIATION? Such as...THE International
Association for Peace and Human Understanding...?
Message-ID: <001d01d5584f$937ea970$ba7bfc50$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Paul ? Wonderful to hear from you! And? several years ago I was in Beijing with peers, colleagues and friends who collectively had doubtless done many more OSTs than I ? all in a most challenging environment. They asked me to say something and I replied that actually I thought it had all been said some 3000 years ago by a marvelous person, Lao Tzu. And I think you would be interested in a wonderful book done by an old friend, Chris Corrigan called the ?Tao of Holding Space.? Chris shows up here (OSLIST) more than occasionally ? Chris where are you? I think he put it up (PDF) online??? You will enjoy.
Harrison
From: Paul Nunesdea [mailto:p.nunesdea at architectingcollaboration.com <mailto:p.nunesdea at architectingcollaboration.com>]
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2019 2:11 PM
To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
Cc: Harrison Owen
Subject: Re: [OSList] Okay...Forget Certification then...How about Co-Creating a NEW OST ASSOCIATION? Such as...THE International Association for Peace and Human Understanding...?
Greetings HO, I have been away from this list except when something extraordinarily contentious happens here, and I got attracted by the certification subject.
Yes, just to say I am among those that used OST by reading your book + an extremely helpful and long coaching call from Lisa Heft - the Open Space Community's Mary Magdalene.
Since then the power of self-organization never ceased to amaze me, and to be honest my most precious ally when big challenges are faced.
I have written books about group facilitation in my mother languages, I argue OST is the ultimate group facilitation methodology, inspired by seminal work of very dear IAF colleagues (and your disciples?) here in Europe, Gerardo de Luzemberg and Jean-Philippe Poupard.
And your answer below, reinforces my faith on this absolute mystery of self-organization that have been helping me so much.
Tanks for the unsuspected Dee Hock's book recommendation, I will read it next.
I apologize Listers if this other unsuspected reference below has already been discussed here before, but I recently re-discovered Lao Tzu book Tao Te Ching (the book of the way) and cannot think about the resemblances with your discoveries HO.
If you like listening instead of reading, this is an amazing free resource on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2UYch2JnO4 <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2UYch2JnO4>
I suspect Lao Tzu's interpretation of what the master will do about OST's certification is just about what you have written below, beloved father.
Best wishes
Paul Nunesdea | Paulo Nunes de Abreu
<https://www.architectingcollaboration.com/ <https://www.architectingcollaboration.com/>> https://www.architectingcollaboration.com/ <https://www.architectingcollaboration.com/>
<http://i66.tinypic.com/iejgqe.png <http://i66.tinypic.com/iejgqe.png>>
<https://mailtrack.io/trace/mail/d216e3a1535c277cb09ec49a1834070cb6323269.png?u=4673463 <https://mailtrack.io/trace/mail/d216e3a1535c277cb09ec49a1834070cb6323269.png?u=4673463>>
On Tue, 20 Aug 2019 at 23:15, Harrison Owen via OSList <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>> wrote:
Barry -- your notion about "scale" -- numbers of people -- is pretty close to the accepted wisdom. Summed up in the old refrain, Some day we got to get organized! Especially when we get bigger. Certainly makes sense, keeps a lot of MBA programs in business, but simply doesn't accord with my experience. First in terms of my usual standard reference... Open Spaces. The curious, but I think instructive thing, is that every Open Space that I have facilitated or been a part of -- regardless of size (5- 2108) has been unnervingly the same. 10-15 minutes for opening, 20 min for issue announcement, 30 minutes for market place arrangements (combinations, reschedules, cup of coffee) 1 hour to start of first session -- and from there on it all happened by itself. This has even been true in several situation where a very hard working planning committee worked out every detail in accord with the best meeting management protocols. Looked great on paper, immediately fell apart, and just as quickly
self organized, despite their best efforts. Weird!
Then there is the observed behavior and accomplishments of what we might vaguely call, "The Open Space Community." If you put aside all question of how we got there, the accomplishments I believe are rather impressive. Indeed there are very few HR consulting groups that could come anywhere close. Just take the numbers: 35 years in business, minimum 500,000 "interventions," millions of participants, thousands of facilitators, massive coverage by the international press, and a multitude of imitators -- which is always a complement in a weird way. Not bad if I do say so myself. AND it might be pointed out that all of this took place without a shred of formal organization, no institutional funding, no defined leadership structure, zero effort at standardization or certification. Why would anybody want to change that ... even if you could?
And then in the REAL WORLD... That would be Corporations, Governments, NGOs -- I can give you any number of examples where such organizations spent millions of $$$ to get organized, failed, -- and then opened some space to accomplish in several days where they had failed miserably for years. I "did" a few of those personally, but in most cases (if I was directly involved) I advised that they save a lot of money, buy the book, and do it. And of course there were any number of situations where sensitive participants of one OST simply went out and "did" it again without benefit of book, training, certification. Marvelous!
And if you want "testimony" from a different, and presumably unbiased source, check out Dee Hock, "Chaordic Organizations."
Harrison (and -- of course -- also your father.)
-----Original Message-----
From: Barry Owen via OSList <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>>
To: World wide Open Space Technology email list <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>>
Cc: Barry Owen <barryowenost at gmail.com <mailto:barryowenost at gmail.com>>; Michael M Pannwitz <mmpannwitz at gmail.com <mailto:mmpannwitz at gmail.com>>
Sent: Tue, Aug 20, 2019 11:10 am
Subject: Re: [OSList] Okay...Forget Certification then...How about Co-Creating a NEW OST ASSOCIATION? Such as...THE International Association for Peace and Human Understanding...?
I've been mulling this over for months now.
Have come to what I think is a conclusion that blaming the mayhem on "Organisations" is akin to "shooting the messenger" . . . making it a martyr.
After all, any time there's more than one person present, it's essentially the birth of an "organisation".
I think the real problem is that of scale.
It seems to me that, as the number "Members" increases in any "gathering", the perceived "need" for organisation becomes more prevalent.
As that dynamic evolves, the people seem to "forget" what "brung'm here" . . . That is . . . those things that have never changed
Breath
Circle
Bulletin Board
Marketplace
Expect to be (be prepared to be) surprised
fall by the wayside as more and more "social constructs" emerge thereby converting Open Space to Command and control.
Oh yeah . . . and "keeping up with the Joneses"
My opinion is that the "mandate" of "just open more space anywhere and everywhere" is an open invitation for all of us (humanity) to remember to:
Breathe
Name the Theme (Important, Complex, Diversity of People/Opinions, potential for conflict, need for resolution NOW)
Invite whoever cares
Gather in a circle
Create the Bulletin Board
Open the marketplace
Get to work!
and the best news is that everyone already knows how to do this . . . we've just gotta remind them.
So . . . I think more organisations will "get" this as we open more space every day.
They're not broken or corrupt!
Bless their hearts . . . They're simply forgetful, and all we've gotta do is remind them.
or something . . .
b
On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 5:03 AM Michael M Pannwitz via OSList <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>> wrote:
Dear all,
my assumption regarding "organisation" is that they are the work of the
devil.
They are omnipresent. There is practically nothing that can do without
an "organisation". Government, churches, mafia, health care, schools,
prisons, military, restaurants, foundations, associations, universities,
concentration camps, secret service, sports, museums, shipyards,
daycare, labour unions, political parties, courts, NGOs, NATO, ... you
name it.
Thinking beyond "organisations" seems impossible.
Working for, in, against, with, through, in spite of, etc.
"organisations" is omnipresent.
And to make things even worse, they all are selforganising, right?
And despite or because of their existence we have wars, starvation,
pollution, glaciers disappearing, crime, corruption, you name it.
Now, organisations not created by the devil but lets say by God would
not create such a mess.
One of the most lucrative businesses just about everywhere is
consulting. Huge consulting firms work with/for/ect. huge businesses,
governments, NGOs. Millions of folks work in that field helping them to
become better, faster, etc. in the business they are involved in.
Now, is ost something that consulting firms are into?
There are some forms of "systems" such as neighborhoods, circles of
friends, collegial counselling groups, OSonOS (local, regional,
worldwide), people playing soccer with a tin can on a vacant lot,
families, demonstrations (HongKong, Fridays for Future...), Stammtische...
I smile in such settings, happy myself, grow myself... in such
"settings" and also frustrate myself now and then. Especially when
"control" enters the stage.
And at some point many such "systems" or "settings" ossify when they
take on the form of "organisations". In other words, the devil takes over.
Some of us smell that when it approaches and say "no". And move on or
drop out or fight or...
Ok, this is stuff that comes up when I look at my "assumption" regarding
"organisation".
I would like to hear more about your "assumptions" that come up when
"organisation" enters your mind.
Greetings from Berlin
mmp
Am 20.08.2019 um 00:04 schrieb R Chaffe via OSList:
> Chris,
> I look forward to Mark?s reply to your question. It seems to me that that the question mixes up the who and the what. Mark uses a few examples including a mechanic, the first question I have is what experience the trade person has my second is an example of their work. OST is at one level about the ?how? the job is done and I think that is one level the question comes from. Being able to Open Space and engage effectively with the sponsor and the community of concern is an other level again.
>
> There is a level of trust between the sponsor and the facilitator that the result the sponsor wants will be delivered. The sponsor might ask how did you do that? I suggest that they are more interested on what you as facilitator delivered based on the contract.
>
> In many ways focusing on the how is counter productive the ?what? is the thing that pays the bills and builds reputations.
>
> If my thinking is correct the struggle is to define a professional facilitator who can deliver is the issue not what tools they use when it comes to a contract.
>
> Regards
> Rob
>
>> On 20 Aug 2019, at 2:31 am, Chris Corrigan via OSList <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>> wrote:
>>
>> Whenever I want to know if my work of Hosting an Open Space Technology meeting was useful, I give the participants a form that sinplay says ?complete the following sentence. As a result of this meeting...?
>>
>> The only people who should be judging the efficacy of an OST meeting are the people who called it in the first place to get their work done. In my experience, they are happy if the meeting has helped them.
>>
>> My work is always directed towards client needs. Some times we do Open Space. Sometimes we do it in a way that would drive a ?by the book? person crazy. But it?s about the clients. I doubt there is a way my process could be formalized in a way that works better for my clients than sitting down and listening to their needs.
>>
>> There is already a network of Open Space Institutes who steward this practice. There is an international association of facilitators who can join if you want certification.
>>
>> I find myself constantly wanting to defend this radical openness. Mark, what is behind your string desire for something more formal than what we already have?
>>
>> Chris.
>>
>>
>> _____________
>> CHRIS CORRIGAN
>> www.chriscorrigan.com <http://www.chriscorrigan.com/>
>>
>>> On Aug 19, 2019, at 8:29 AM, Mark Carmel via OSList <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>> wrote:
>>>
>>> 1st of all thank you for everyone who gave me feedback on my big idea for certification. It was sincerely appreciated. However I can see it was something that did not Resonate well.
>>>
>>> Open space technology has clearly set the standard for the facilitation of peace and human understanding. It is such a powerful and simple tool but highly complex. As Harrison says.. chaos plows the fields of the mind so that new ideas can grow... I think there is ample chaos for us to tackle right now.
>>>
>>> I think it is highly important for the leadership of our open space world to make a decision now while we still have Harrison among us as a living spirit. Because we have already set the standards why not cement the standards and turn it into an everlasting association that could be organized to deliver training, etc. To advance the mission of human peace and understanding in a more organized way?
>>>
>>> If you want to be a beautician or a mechanic or a rocket scientist or a city manager there are associations for that .
>>>
>>> Why not an association for open space technology practitioners to define the standards, the ethics, code of conduct, the way that Harrison has already articulated them, but to formalize them and help us get organized and stay organized until we get the job done?
>>>
>>> Respectfully submitted,
>>> Mark Carmel
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OSList mailing list
>>> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:OSList at lists.openspacetech.org>
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org>
>>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
>>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org <http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org>
>>> Past archives can be viewed here: http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org <http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OSList mailing list
>> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:OSList at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org>
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> _______________________________________________
> OSList mailing list
> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:OSList at lists.openspacetech.org>
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>
--
Michael M Pannwitz
Draisweg 1, 12209 Berlin, Germany
++49 - 30-772 8000
mmpannwitz at gmail.com <mailto:mmpannwitz at gmail.com>
Check out the Open Space World Map presently showing 487 resident Open
Space Workers in 76 countries working in a total of 142 countries worldwide
www.openspaceworldmap.org <http://www.openspaceworldmap.org/>
At my publisher you find books and task cards on open space, most in
German, some in English, some as ebooks, some multilingual
https://www.westkreuz-verlag.de/de/Kommunikation <https://www.westkreuz-verlag.de/de/Kommunikation>
_______________________________________________
OSList mailing list
To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:OSList at lists.openspacetech.org>
To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org>
To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
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Past archives can be viewed here: http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org <http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org>
--
Barry Owen
Inviter - Facilitator/Practicer of Open Space Technology
Opening and Holding safe space for people and organizations to self-organize around important issues and opportunities.
Invite - Listen - Love
615-568-2123
BarryOwen.us
4004 Hillsboro Pike B234
Nashville, TN 37215
_______________________________________________
OSList mailing list
To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:OSList at lists.openspacetech.org>
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Message: 4
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 12:21:55 -0700
From: Chris Corrigan <chris.corrigan at gmail.com <mailto:chris.corrigan at gmail.com>>
To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
<oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>>
Cc: Paul Nunesdea <p.nunesdea at architectingcollaboration.com <mailto:p.nunesdea at architectingcollaboration.com>>, Harrison
Owen <hhowensr at gmail.com <mailto:hhowensr at gmail.com>>
Subject: Re: [OSList] Okay...Forget Certification then...How about
Co-Creating a NEW OST ASSOCIATION? Such as...THE International
Association for Peace and Human Understanding...?
Message-ID: <CEDC9CD9-DD70-4C38-AFDE-97DEBCDDB8A6 at gmail.com <mailto:CEDC9CD9-DD70-4C38-AFDE-97DEBCDDB8A6 at gmail.com>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Right here. Here are the links for the Tao of Holding Space and if you?d like a beautiful designed copy email me for details.
http://www.chriscorrigan.com/parkinglot/the-tao-of-holding-space/ <http://www.chriscorrigan.com/parkinglot/the-tao-of-holding-space/>
Chris
_____________
CHRIS CORRIGAN
www.chriscorrigan.com <http://www.chriscorrigan.com/>
> On Aug 21, 2019, at 11:38 AM, Harrison Owen via OSList <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>> wrote:
>
> Paul ? Wonderful to hear from you! And? several years ago I was in Beijing with peers, colleagues and friends who collectively had doubtless done many more OSTs than I ? all in a most challenging environment. They asked me to say something and I replied that actually I thought it had all been said some 3000 years ago by a marvelous person, Lao Tzu. And I think you would be interested in a wonderful book done by an old friend, Chris Corrigan called the ?Tao of Holding Space.? Chris shows up here (OSLIST) more than occasionally ? Chris where are you? I think he put it up (PDF) online??? You will enjoy.
>
> Harrison
>
> From: Paul Nunesdea [mailto:p.nunesdea at architectingcollaboration.com <mailto:p.nunesdea at architectingcollaboration.com>]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2019 2:11 PM
> To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
> Cc: Harrison Owen
> Subject: Re: [OSList] Okay...Forget Certification then...How about Co-Creating a NEW OST ASSOCIATION? Such as...THE International Association for Peace and Human Understanding...?
>
> Greetings HO, I have been away from this list except when something extraordinarily contentious happens here, and I got attracted by the certification subject.
>
> Yes, just to say I am among those that used OST by reading your book + an extremely helpful and long coaching call from Lisa Heft - the Open Space Community's Mary Magdalene.
>
> Since then the power of self-organization never ceased to amaze me, and to be honest my most precious ally when big challenges are faced.
>
> I have written books about group facilitation in my mother languages, I argue OST is the ultimate group facilitation methodology, inspired by seminal work of very dear IAF colleagues (and your disciples?) here in Europe, Gerardo de Luzemberg and Jean-Philippe Poupard.
>
> And your answer below, reinforces my faith on this absolute mystery of self-organization that have been helping me so much.
>
> Tanks for the unsuspected Dee Hock's book recommendation, I will read it next.
>
> I apologize Listers if this other unsuspected reference below has already been discussed here before, but I recently re-discovered Lao Tzu book Tao Te Ching (the book of the way) and cannot think about the resemblances with your discoveries HO.
>
> If you like listening instead of reading, this is an amazing free resource on Youtube:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2UYch2JnO4 <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2UYch2JnO4>
>
> I suspect Lao Tzu's interpretation of what the master will do about OST's certification is just about what you have written below, beloved father.
>
> Best wishes
> Paul Nunesdea | Paulo Nunes de Abreu
> https://www.architectingcollaboration.com/ <https://www.architectingcollaboration.com/>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, 20 Aug 2019 at 23:15, Harrison Owen via OSList <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>> wrote:
> Barry -- your notion about "scale" -- numbers of people -- is pretty close to the accepted wisdom. Summed up in the old refrain, Some day we got to get organized! Especially when we get bigger. Certainly makes sense, keeps a lot of MBA programs in business, but simply doesn't accord with my experience. First in terms of my usual standard reference... Open Spaces. The curious, but I think instructive thing, is that every Open Space that I have facilitated or been a part of -- regardless of size (5- 2108) has been unnervingly the same. 10-15 minutes for opening, 20 min for issue announcement, 30 minutes for market place arrangements (combinations, reschedules, cup of coffee) 1 hour to start of first session -- and from there on it all happened by itself. This has even been true in several situation where a very hard working planning committee worked out every detail in accord with the best meeting management protocols. Looked great on paper, immediately fell apart, and just as quickl
y self organized, despite their best efforts. Weird!
>
> Then there is the observed behavior and accomplishments of what we might vaguely call, "The Open Space Community." If you put aside all question of how we got there, the accomplishments I believe are rather impressive. Indeed there are very few HR consulting groups that could come anywhere close. Just take the numbers: 35 years in business, minimum 500,000 "interventions," millions of participants, thousands of facilitators, massive coverage by the international press, and a multitude of imitators -- which is always a complement in a weird way. Not bad if I do say so myself. AND it might be pointed out that all of this took place without a shred of formal organization, no institutional funding, no defined leadership structure, zero effort at standardization or certification. Why would anybody want to change that ... even if you could?
>
> And then in the REAL WORLD... That would be Corporations, Governments, NGOs -- I can give you any number of examples where such organizations spent millions of $$$ to get organized, failed, -- and then opened some space to accomplish in several days where they had failed miserably for years. I "did" a few of those personally, but in most cases (if I was directly involved) I advised that they save a lot of money, buy the book, and do it. And of course there were any number of situations where sensitive participants of one OST simply went out and "did" it again without benefit of book, training, certification. Marvelous!
>
> And if you want "testimony" from a different, and presumably unbiased source, check out Dee Hock, "Chaordic Organizations."
>
> Harrison (and -- of course -- also your father.)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Barry Owen via OSList <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>>
> To: World wide Open Space Technology email list <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>>
> Cc: Barry Owen <barryowenost at gmail.com <mailto:barryowenost at gmail.com>>; Michael M Pannwitz <mmpannwitz at gmail.com <mailto:mmpannwitz at gmail.com>>
> Sent: Tue, Aug 20, 2019 11:10 am
> Subject: Re: [OSList] Okay...Forget Certification then...How about Co-Creating a NEW OST ASSOCIATION? Such as...THE International Association for Peace and Human Understanding...?
>
> I've been mulling this over for months now.
> Have come to what I think is a conclusion that blaming the mayhem on "Organisations" is akin to "shooting the messenger" . . . making it a martyr.
> After all, any time there's more than one person present, it's essentially the birth of an "organisation".
> I think the real problem is that of scale.
> It seems to me that, as the number "Members" increases in any "gathering", the perceived "need" for organisation becomes more prevalent.
> As that dynamic evolves, the people seem to "forget" what "brung'm here" . . . That is . . . those things that have never changed
>
> Breath
> Circle
> Bulletin Board
> Marketplace
> Expect to be (be prepared to be) surprised
>
> fall by the wayside as more and more "social constructs" emerge thereby converting Open Space to Command and control.
> Oh yeah . . . and "keeping up with the Joneses"
>
> My opinion is that the "mandate" of "just open more space anywhere and everywhere" is an open invitation for all of us (humanity) to remember to:
>
> Breathe
> Name the Theme (Important, Complex, Diversity of People/Opinions, potential for conflict, need for resolution NOW)
> Invite whoever cares
> Gather in a circle
> Create the Bulletin Board
> Open the marketplace
> Get to work!
>
> and the best news is that everyone already knows how to do this . . . we've just gotta remind them.
>
> So . . . I think more organisations will "get" this as we open more space every day.
>
> They're not broken or corrupt!
>
> Bless their hearts . . . They're simply forgetful, and all we've gotta do is remind them.
>
> or something . . .
>
> b
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 5:03 AM Michael M Pannwitz via OSList <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>> wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> my assumption regarding "organisation" is that they are the work of the
> devil.
> They are omnipresent. There is practically nothing that can do without
> an "organisation". Government, churches, mafia, health care, schools,
> prisons, military, restaurants, foundations, associations, universities,
> concentration camps, secret service, sports, museums, shipyards,
> daycare, labour unions, political parties, courts, NGOs, NATO, ... you
> name it.
> Thinking beyond "organisations" seems impossible.
> Working for, in, against, with, through, in spite of, etc.
> "organisations" is omnipresent.
> And to make things even worse, they all are selforganising, right?
> And despite or because of their existence we have wars, starvation,
> pollution, glaciers disappearing, crime, corruption, you name it.
> Now, organisations not created by the devil but lets say by God would
> not create such a mess.
> One of the most lucrative businesses just about everywhere is
> consulting. Huge consulting firms work with/for/ect. huge businesses,
> governments, NGOs. Millions of folks work in that field helping them to
> become better, faster, etc. in the business they are involved in.
>
> Now, is ost something that consulting firms are into?
>
> There are some forms of "systems" such as neighborhoods, circles of
> friends, collegial counselling groups, OSonOS (local, regional,
> worldwide), people playing soccer with a tin can on a vacant lot,
> families, demonstrations (HongKong, Fridays for Future...), Stammtische...
> I smile in such settings, happy myself, grow myself... in such
> "settings" and also frustrate myself now and then. Especially when
> "control" enters the stage.
> And at some point many such "systems" or "settings" ossify when they
> take on the form of "organisations". In other words, the devil takes over.
> Some of us smell that when it approaches and say "no". And move on or
> drop out or fight or...
>
> Ok, this is stuff that comes up when I look at my "assumption" regarding
> "organisation".
>
> I would like to hear more about your "assumptions" that come up when
> "organisation" enters your mind.
>
> Greetings from Berlin
> mmp
>
>
>
> Am 20.08.2019 um 00:04 schrieb R Chaffe via OSList:
> > Chris,
> > I look forward to Mark?s reply to your question. It seems to me that that the question mixes up the who and the what. Mark uses a few examples including a mechanic, the first question I have is what experience the trade person has my second is an example of their work. OST is at one level about the ?how? the job is done and I think that is one level the question comes from. Being able to Open Space and engage effectively with the sponsor and the community of concern is an other level again.
> >
> > There is a level of trust between the sponsor and the facilitator that the result the sponsor wants will be delivered. The sponsor might ask how did you do that? I suggest that they are more interested on what you as facilitator delivered based on the contract.
> >
> > In many ways focusing on the how is counter productive the ?what? is the thing that pays the bills and builds reputations.
> >
> > If my thinking is correct the struggle is to define a professional facilitator who can deliver is the issue not what tools they use when it comes to a contract.
> >
> > Regards
> > Rob
> >
> >> On 20 Aug 2019, at 2:31 am, Chris Corrigan via OSList <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>> wrote:
> >>
> >> Whenever I want to know if my work of Hosting an Open Space Technology meeting was useful, I give the participants a form that sinplay says ?complete the following sentence. As a result of this meeting...?
> >>
> >> The only people who should be judging the efficacy of an OST meeting are the people who called it in the first place to get their work done. In my experience, they are happy if the meeting has helped them.
> >>
> >> My work is always directed towards client needs. Some times we do Open Space. Sometimes we do it in a way that would drive a ?by the book? person crazy. But it?s about the clients. I doubt there is a way my process could be formalized in a way that works better for my clients than sitting down and listening to their needs.
> >>
> >> There is already a network of Open Space Institutes who steward this practice. There is an international association of facilitators who can join if you want certification.
> >>
> >> I find myself constantly wanting to defend this radical openness. Mark, what is behind your string desire for something more formal than what we already have?
> >>
> >> Chris.
> >>
> >>
> >> _____________
> >> CHRIS CORRIGAN
> >> www.chriscorrigan.com <http://www.chriscorrigan.com/>
> >>
> >>> On Aug 19, 2019, at 8:29 AM, Mark Carmel via OSList <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> 1st of all thank you for everyone who gave me feedback on my big idea for certification. It was sincerely appreciated. However I can see it was something that did not Resonate well.
> >>>
> >>> Open space technology has clearly set the standard for the facilitation of peace and human understanding. It is such a powerful and simple tool but highly complex. As Harrison says.. chaos plows the fields of the mind so that new ideas can grow... I think there is ample chaos for us to tackle right now.
> >>>
> >>> I think it is highly important for the leadership of our open space world to make a decision now while we still have Harrison among us as a living spirit. Because we have already set the standards why not cement the standards and turn it into an everlasting association that could be organized to deliver training, etc. To advance the mission of human peace and understanding in a more organized way?
> >>>
> >>> If you want to be a beautician or a mechanic or a rocket scientist or a city manager there are associations for that .
> >>>
> >>> Why not an association for open space technology practitioners to define the standards, the ethics, code of conduct, the way that Harrison has already articulated them, but to formalize them and help us get <https://www.google.com/maps/search/to+formalize+them+and+help+us+get?entry=gmail&source=g> organized and stay organized until we get the job done?
> >>>
> >>> Respectfully submitted,
> >>> Mark Carmel
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> OSList mailing list
> >>> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:OSList at lists.openspacetech.org>
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> >> _______________________________________________
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> > _______________________________________________
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>
> --
> Michael M Pannwitz
> Draisweg 1, 12209 Berlin, Germany
> ++49 - 30-772 8000
> mmpannwitz at gmail.com <mailto:mmpannwitz at gmail.com>
>
>
> Check out the Open Space World Map presently showing 487 resident Open
> Space Workers in 76 countries working in a total of 142 countries worldwide
> www.openspaceworldmap.org <http://www.openspaceworldmap.org/>
>
> At my publisher you find books and task cards on open space, most in
> German, some in English, some as ebooks, some multilingual
> https://www.westkreuz-verlag.de/de/Kommunikation <https://www.westkreuz-verlag.de/de/Kommunikation>
> _______________________________________________
> OSList mailing list
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>
>
> --
> Barry Owen
> Inviter - Facilitator/Practicer of Open Space Technology
> Opening and Holding safe space for people and organizations to self-organize around important issues and opportunities.
> Invite - Listen - Love
>
> 615-568-2123
> BarryOwen.us
>
> 4004 Hillsboro Pike B234
> Nashville, TN 37215
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