[OSList] OSList Digest, Vol 100, Issue 25

Barry Owen Barry at paretorealty.com
Wed Aug 21 15:43:17 PDT 2019


Yes Anne!
Just keep on Opening Space!

That's a nice "short form" for the long form of our invitation to WOSONOS.

Great to see you here!

b

*Barry Owen*
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On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 3:42 PM anne stadler via OSList <
oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:

> Certification:
>
> Thank you dear Owens!! As a “first follower”, I couldn’t agree more!!!!
> Please folks, turn your attention to opening space, wherever you are! We
> need to open space much more than we need to certify people. As I observed
> in Goa India in 1989 at the first public offering of Open Space Technology,
> “Oh sure! This is what people do when they get together to accomplish
> something!”
>
> On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 1:22 PM <oslist-request at lists.openspacetech.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Send OSList mailing list submissions to
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>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of OSList digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>    1. Re: Okay...Forget Certification then...How about Co-Creating
>>       a NEW OST ASSOCIATION? Such as...THE International Association
>>       for Peace and Human Understanding...? (Harrison Owen)
>>    2. Re: Okay...Forget Certification then...How about Co-Creating
>>       a NEW OST ASSOCIATION? Such as...THE International Association
>>       for Peace and Human Understanding...? (Paul Nunesdea)
>>    3. Re: Okay...Forget Certification then...How about Co-Creating
>>       a NEW OST ASSOCIATION? Such as...THE International Association
>>       for Peace and Human Understanding...? (Harrison Owen)
>>    4. Re: Okay...Forget Certification then...How about Co-Creating
>>       a NEW OST ASSOCIATION? Such as...THE International Association
>>       for Peace and Human Understanding...? (Chris Corrigan)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 21:15:19 +0000 (UTC)
>> From: Harrison Owen <hhowen at verizon.net>
>> To: oslist at lists.openspacetech.org
>> Subject: Re: [OSList] Okay...Forget Certification then...How about
>>         Co-Creating a NEW OST ASSOCIATION? Such as...THE International
>>         Association for Peace and Human Understanding...?
>> Message-ID: <156805336.1380681.1566335719818 at mail.yahoo.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Barry -- your notion about "scale" -- numbers of people -- is pretty
>> close to the accepted wisdom. Summed up in the old refrain, Some day we got
>> to get organized! Especially when we get bigger. Certainly makes sense,
>> keeps a lot of MBA programs in business, but simply doesn't accord with my
>> experience. First in terms of my usual standard reference... Open Spaces.
>> The curious, but I think instructive thing, is that every Open Space that I
>> have facilitated or been a part of -- regardless of size (5- 2108) has been
>> unnervingly the same. 10-15 minutes for opening, 20 min for issue
>> announcement, 30 minutes for market place arrangements (combinations,
>> reschedules, cup of coffee) 1 hour to start of first session -- and from
>> there on it all happened by itself. This has even been true in several
>> situation where a very hard working planning committee worked out every
>> detail in accord with the best meeting management protocols. Looked great
>> on paper, immediately fell apart, and just as quickly
>>  self organized, despite their best efforts. Weird!
>> Then there is the observed behavior and accomplishments of what we might
>> vaguely call, "The Open Space Community." If you put aside all question of
>> how we got there, the accomplishments I believe are rather impressive.
>> Indeed there are very few HR consulting groups that could come anywhere
>> close. Just take the numbers: 35 years in business, minimum 500,000
>> "interventions," millions of participants, thousands of facilitators,
>> massive coverage by the international press, and a multitude of imitators
>> -- which is always a complement in a weird way. Not bad if I do say so
>> myself. AND it might be pointed out that all of this took place without a
>> shred of formal organization, no institutional funding, no defined
>> leadership structure, zero effort at standardization or certification. Why
>> would anybody want to change that ... even if you could?
>> And then in the REAL WORLD... That would be Corporations, Governments,
>> NGOs -- I can give you any number of examples where such organizations
>> spent millions of $$$ to get organized, failed, -- and then opened some
>> space to accomplish in several days where they had failed miserably for
>> years. I "did" a few of those personally, but in most cases (if I was
>> directly involved) I advised that they save a lot of money, buy the book,
>> and do it. And of course there were any number of situations where
>> sensitive participants of one OST simply went out and "did" it again
>> without benefit of book, training, certification. Marvelous!
>> And if you want "testimony" from a different, and presumably unbiased
>> source, check out Dee Hock, "Chaordic Organizations."
>> Harrison (and -- of course -- also your father.)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Barry Owen via OSList <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> To: World wide Open Space Technology email list <
>> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> Cc: Barry Owen <barryowenost at gmail.com>; Michael M Pannwitz <
>> mmpannwitz at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Tue, Aug 20, 2019 11:10 am
>> Subject: Re: [OSList] Okay...Forget Certification then...How about
>> Co-Creating a NEW OST ASSOCIATION? Such as...THE International Association
>> for Peace and Human Understanding...?
>>
>> I've been mulling this over for months now.?Have come to what I think is
>> a conclusion that blaming the mayhem on "Organisations" is akin to
>> "shooting the messenger" . . . making it a martyr.After all, any time
>> there's more than one person present, it's essentially the birth of an
>> "organisation".I think the real problem is that of scale.It seems to me
>> that, as the number "Members" increases in any "gathering", the perceived
>> "need" for organisation becomes more prevalent.As that dynamic evolves, the
>> people seem to "forget" what "brung'm here" . . . That is . . . those
>> things that have never changed
>> BreathCircleBulletin BoardMarketplaceExpect to be (be prepared to be)
>> surprised
>> fall by the wayside as more and more "social constructs" emerge thereby
>> converting Open Space to Command and control.Oh yeah . . . and "keeping up
>> with the Joneses"
>> My opinion is that the "mandate" of "just open more space anywhere and
>> everywhere" is an open invitation for all of us (humanity) to remember to:?
>> BreatheName the Theme (Important, Complex, Diversity of People/Opinions,
>> potential for conflict, need for resolution NOW)Invite whoever caresGather
>> in a circleCreate the Bulletin BoardOpen the marketplaceGet to work!
>> and the best news is that everyone already knows how to do this . . .
>> we've just gotta remind them.
>> So . . . I think more organisations will "get" this as we open more space
>> every day.?
>> They're not broken or corrupt!?
>> Bless their hearts . . . They're simply forgetful, and all we've gotta do
>> is remind them.
>> or something . . .?
>> b
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 5:03 AM Michael M Pannwitz via OSList <
>> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> my assumption regarding "organisation" is that they are the work of the
>> devil.
>> They are omnipresent. There is practically nothing that can do without
>> an "organisation". Government, churches, mafia, health care, schools,
>> prisons, military, restaurants, foundations, associations, universities,
>> concentration camps, secret service, sports, museums, shipyards,
>> daycare, labour unions, political parties, courts, NGOs, NATO, ... you
>> name it.
>> Thinking beyond "organisations" seems impossible.
>> Working for, in, against, with, through, in spite of, etc.
>> "organisations" is omnipresent.
>> And to make things even worse, they all are selforganising, right?
>> And despite or because of their existence we have wars, starvation,
>> pollution, glaciers disappearing, crime, corruption, you name it.
>> Now, organisations not created by the devil but lets say by God would
>> not create such a mess.
>> One of the most lucrative businesses just about everywhere is
>> consulting. Huge consulting firms work with/for/ect. huge businesses,
>> governments, NGOs. Millions of folks work in that field helping them to
>> become better, faster, etc. in the business they are involved in.
>>
>> Now, is ost something that consulting firms are into?
>>
>> There are some forms of "systems" such as neighborhoods, circles of
>> friends, collegial counselling groups, OSonOS (local, regional,
>> worldwide), people playing soccer with a tin can on a vacant lot,
>> families, demonstrations (HongKong, Fridays for Future...), Stammtische...
>> I smile in such settings, happy myself, grow myself... in such
>> "settings" and also frustrate myself now and then. Especially when
>> "control" enters the stage.
>> And at some point many such "systems" or "settings" ossify when they
>> take on the form of "organisations". In other words, the devil takes over.
>> Some of us smell that when it approaches and say "no". And move on or
>> drop out or fight or...
>>
>> Ok, this is stuff that comes up when I look at my "assumption" regarding
>> "organisation".
>>
>> I would like to hear more about your "assumptions" that come up when
>> "organisation" enters your mind.
>>
>> Greetings from Berlin
>> mmp
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 20.08.2019 um 00:04 schrieb R Chaffe via OSList:
>> > Chris,
>> > I look forward to Mark?s reply to your question.? It seems to me that
>> that the question mixes up the who and the what.? Mark uses a few examples
>> including a mechanic, the first question I have is what experience the
>> trade person has my second is an example of their work.? OST is at one
>> level about the ?how? the job is done and I think that is one level the
>> question comes from.? Being able to Open Space and engage effectively with
>> the sponsor and the community of concern is an other level again.
>> >
>> > There is a level of trust between the sponsor and the facilitator that
>> the result the sponsor wants will be delivered.? The sponsor might ask how
>> did you do that? I suggest that they are more interested on what you as
>> facilitator delivered based on the contract.
>> >
>> > In many ways focusing on the how is counter productive the ?what? is
>> the thing that pays the bills and builds reputations.
>> >
>> > If my thinking is correct the struggle is to define a professional
>> facilitator who can deliver is the issue not what tools they use when it
>> comes to a contract.
>> >
>> > Regards
>> > Rob
>> >
>> >> On 20 Aug 2019, at 2:31 am, Chris Corrigan via OSList <
>> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Whenever I want to know if my work of Hosting an Open Space Technology
>> meeting was useful, I give the participants a form that sinplay says
>> ?complete the following sentence. As a result of this meeting...?
>> >>
>> >> The only people who should be judging the efficacy of an OST meeting
>> are the people who called it in the first place to get their work done. In
>> my experience, they are happy if the meeting has helped them.
>> >>
>> >> My work is always directed towards client needs. Some times we do Open
>> Space. Sometimes we do it in a way that would drive a ?by the book? person
>> crazy. But it?s about the clients. I doubt there is a way my process could
>> be formalized in a way that works better for my clients than sitting down
>> and listening to their needs.
>> >>
>> >> There is already a network of Open Space Institutes who steward this
>> practice. There is an international association of facilitators who can
>> join if you want certification.
>> >>
>> >> I find myself constantly wanting to defend this radical openness.
>> Mark, what is behind your string desire for something more formal than what
>> we already have?
>> >>
>> >> Chris.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _____________
>> >> CHRIS CORRIGAN
>> >> www.chriscorrigan.com
>> >>
>> >>> On Aug 19, 2019, at 8:29 AM, Mark Carmel via OSList <
>> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> 1st of all thank you for everyone who gave me feedback on my big idea
>> for certification. It was sincerely appreciated. However I can see it was
>> something that did not? Resonate well.
>> >>>
>> >>> Open space technology has clearly set the standard for the
>> facilitation of peace and human understanding. It is such a powerful and
>> simple tool but highly complex. As Harrison says..? chaos plows the fields
>> of the mind so that new ideas can grow... I think there is ample chaos for
>> us to tackle right now.
>> >>>
>> >>> I think it is highly important for the leadership of our open space
>> world to make a decision now while we still have Harrison among us as a
>> living spirit. Because we have already set the standards why not cement the
>> standards and turn it into an everlasting association that could be
>> organized to deliver training, etc. To advance the mission of human peace
>> and understanding in a more organized way?
>> >>>
>> >>> If you want to be a beautician or a mechanic or a rocket scientist or
>> a city manager there are associations for that .
>> >>>
>> >>> Why not an association for open space technology practitioners to
>> define the standards, the ethics, code of conduct, the way that Harrison
>> has already articulated them, but to formalize them and help us get
>> organized and stay organized until we get the job done?
>> >>>
>> >>> Respectfully submitted,
>> >>> Mark Carmel
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> OSList mailing list
>> >>> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
>> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
>> >>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
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>> >>> Past archives can be viewed here:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> OSList mailing list
>> >> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
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>> > _______________________________________________
>> > OSList mailing list
>> > To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
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>>
>> --
>> Michael M Pannwitz
>> Draisweg 1, 12209 Berlin, Germany
>> ++49 - 30-772 8000
>> mmpannwitz at gmail.com
>>
>>
>> Check out the Open Space World Map presently showing 487 resident Open
>> Space Workers in 76 countries working in a total of 142 countries
>> worldwide
>> www.openspaceworldmap.org
>>
>> At my publisher you find books and task cards on open space, most in
>> German, some in English, some as ebooks, some multilingual
>> https://www.westkreuz-verlag.de/de/Kommunikation
>> _______________________________________________
>> OSList mailing list
>> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
>> To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>> Past archives can be viewed here:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>>
>>
>> --
>> Barry OwenInviter - Facilitator/Practicer of Open Space
>> Technology?Opening and Holding safe space for peopl
>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/afe+space+for+peopl?entry=gmail&source=g>e
>> and organizations to self-organize around important issues and
>> opportunities.?Invite - Listen - Love
>>
>> 615-568-2123BarryOwen.us
>> 4004 Hillsboro Pike B234Nashville, TN
>> 37215_______________________________________________
>> OSList mailing list
>> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
>> To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
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>> Past archives can be viewed here:
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>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/pipermail/oslist-openspacetech.org/attachments/20190820/9c72280e/attachment-0001.html
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>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 19:25:18 +0100
>> From: Paul Nunesdea <nunesdea at me.com>
>> To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
>>         <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> Subject: Re: [OSList] Okay...Forget Certification then...How about
>>         Co-Creating a NEW OST ASSOCIATION? Such as...THE International
>>         Association for Peace and Human Understanding...?
>> Message-ID: <C99C4906-CA1A-4CBD-89E0-6A8934BD5B01 at me.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Greetings HO, I have been away from this list except when something
>> extraordinarily contentious happens here, and I got attracted by the
>> certification subject.
>>
>> Yes, just to say I am among those that used OST by reading your book + an
>> extremely helpful and long coaching call from Lisa Heft - the Open Space
>> Community's Mary Magdalene.
>>
>> Since then the power of self-organization never ceased to amaze me, and
>> to be honest my most precious ally when big challenges are faced.
>>
>> I have written books about group facilitation in my mother languages, I
>> argue OST is the ultimate group facilitation methodology, inspired by
>> seminal work of very dear IAF colleagues (and your disciples?) here in
>> Europe, Gerardo de Luzemberg and Jean-Philippe Poupard.
>>
>> And your answer below, reinforces my faith on this absolute mystery of
>> self-organization that have been helping me so much.
>>
>> Tanks for the unsuspected Dee Hock's book recommendation, I will read it
>> next.
>>
>> I apologize Listers if this other unsuspected reference below has already
>> been discussed here before, but I recently re-discovered Lao Tzu book Tao
>> Te Ching (the book of the way) and cannot think about the resemblances with
>> your discoveries HO.
>>
>> If you like listening instead of reading, this is an amazing free
>> resource on Youtube:
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2UYch2JnO4
>>
>> I suspect Lao Tzu's interpretation of what the master will do about OST's
>> certification is just about what you have written below, beloved father.
>>
>> Best wishes
>>
>> Paul Nunesdea | Paulo Nunes de Abreu
>> https://www.architectingcollaboration.com/
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> > On 20 Aug 2019, at 22:15, Harrison Owen via OSList <
>> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > Barry -- your notion about "scale" -- numbers of people -- is pretty
>> close to the accepted wisdom. Summed up in the old refrain, Some day we got
>> to get organized! Especially when we get bigger. Certainly makes sense,
>> keeps a lot of MBA programs in business, but simply doesn't accord with my
>> experience. First in terms of my usual standard reference... Open Spaces.
>> The curious, but I think instructive thing, is that every Open Space that I
>> have facilitated or been a part of -- regardless of size (5- 2108) has been
>> unnervingly the same. 10-15 minutes for opening, 20 min for issue
>> announcement, 30 minutes for market place arrangements (combinations,
>> reschedules, cup of coffee) 1 hour to start of first session -- and from
>> there on it all happened by itself. This has even been true in several
>> situation where a very hard working planning committee worked out every
>> detail in accord with the best meeting management protocols. Looked great
>> on paper, immediately fell apart, and just as quickl
>>  y self organized, despite their best efforts. Weird!
>> >
>> > Then there is the observed behavior and accomplishments of what we
>> might vaguely call, "The Open Space Community." If you put aside all
>> question of how we got there, the accomplishments I believe are rather
>> impressive. Indeed there are very few HR consulting groups that could come
>> anywhere close. Just take the numbers: 35 years in business, minimum
>> 500,000 "interventions," millions of participants, thousands of
>> facilitators, massive coverage by the international press, and a multitude
>> of imitators -- which is always a complement in a weird way. Not bad if I
>> do say so myself. AND it might be pointed out that all of this took place
>> without a shred of formal organization, no institutional funding, no
>> defined leadership structure, zero effort at standardization or
>> certification. Why would anybody want to change that ... even if you could?
>> >
>> > And then in the REAL WORLD... That would be Corporations, Governments,
>> NGOs -- I can give you any number of examples where such organizations
>> spent millions of $$$ to get organized, failed, -- and then opened some
>> space to accomplish in several days where they had failed miserably for
>> years. I "did" a few of those personally, but in most cases (if I was
>> directly involved) I advised that they save a lot of money, buy the book,
>> and do it. And of course there were any number of situations where
>> sensitive participants of one OST simply went out and "did" it again
>> without benefit of book, training, certification. Marvelous!
>> >
>> > And if you want "testimony" from a different, and presumably unbiased
>> source, check out Dee Hock, "Chaordic Organizations."
>> >
>> > Harrison (and -- of course -- also your father.)
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Barry Owen via OSList <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> > To: World wide Open Space Technology email list <
>> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> > Cc: Barry Owen <barryowenost at gmail.com>; Michael M Pannwitz <
>> mmpannwitz at gmail.com>
>> > Sent: Tue, Aug 20, 2019 11:10 am
>> > Subject: Re: [OSList] Okay...Forget Certification then...How about
>> Co-Creating a NEW OST ASSOCIATION? Such as...THE International Association
>> for Peace and Human Understanding...?
>> >
>> > I've been mulling this over for months now.
>> > Have come to what I think is a conclusion that blaming the mayhem on
>> "Organisations" is akin to "shooting the messenger" . . . making it a
>> martyr.
>> > After all, any time there's more than one person present, it's
>> essentially the birth of an "organisation".
>> > I think the real problem is that of scale.
>> > It seems to me that, as the number "Members" increases in any
>> "gathering", the perceived "need" for organisation becomes more prevalent.
>> > As that dynamic evolves, the people seem to "forget" what "brung'm
>> here" . . . That is . . . those things that have never changed
>> >
>> > Breath
>> > Circle
>> > Bulletin Board
>> > Marketplace
>> > Expect to be (be prepared to be) surprised
>> >
>> > fall by the wayside as more and more "social constructs" emerge thereby
>> converting Open Space to Command and control.
>> > Oh yeah . . . and "keeping up with the Joneses"
>> >
>> > My opinion is that the "mandate" of "just open more space anywhere and
>> everywhere" is an open invitation for all of us (humanity) to remember to:
>> >
>> > Breathe
>> > Name the Theme (Important, Complex, Diversity of People/Opinions,
>> potential for conflict, need for resolution NOW)
>> > Invite whoever cares
>> > Gather in a circle
>> > Create the Bulletin Board
>> > Open the marketplace
>> > Get to work!
>> >
>> > and the best news is that everyone already knows how to do this . . .
>> we've just gotta remind them.
>> >
>> > So . . . I think more organisations will "get" this as we open more
>> space every day.
>> >
>> > They're not broken or corrupt!
>> >
>> > Bless their hearts . . . They're simply forgetful, and all we've gotta
>> do is remind them.
>> >
>> > or something . . .
>> >
>> > b
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 5:03 AM Michael M Pannwitz via OSList <
>> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>> > Dear all,
>> >
>> > my assumption regarding "organisation" is that they are the work of the
>> > devil.
>> > They are omnipresent. There is practically nothing that can do without
>> > an "organisation". Government, churches, mafia, health care, schools,
>> > prisons, military, restaurants, foundations, associations,
>> universities,
>> > concentration camps, secret service, sports, museums, shipyards,
>> > daycare, labour unions, political parties, courts, NGOs, NATO, ... you
>> > name it.
>> > Thinking beyond "organisations" seems impossible.
>> > Working for, in, against, with, through, in spite of, etc.
>> > "organisations" is omnipresent.
>> > And to make things even worse, they all are selforganising, right?
>> > And despite or because of their existence we have wars, starvation,
>> > pollution, glaciers disappearing, crime, corruption, you name it.
>> > Now, organisations not created by the devil but lets say by God would
>> > not create such a mess.
>> > One of the most lucrative businesses just about everywhere is
>> > consulting. Huge consulting firms work with/for/ect. huge businesses,
>> > governments, NGOs. Millions of folks work in that field helping them to
>> > become better, faster, etc. in the business they are involved in.
>> >
>> > Now, is ost something that consulting firms are into?
>> >
>> > There are some forms of "systems" such as neighborhoods, circles of
>> > friends, collegial counselling groups, OSonOS (local, regional,
>> > worldwide), people playing soccer with a tin can on a vacant lot,
>> > families, demonstrations (HongKong, Fridays for Future...),
>> Stammtische...
>> > I smile in such settings, happy myself, grow myself... in such
>> > "settings" and also frustrate myself now and then. Especially when
>> > "control" enters the stage.
>> > And at some point many such "systems" or "settings" ossify when they
>> > take on the form of "organisations". In other words, the devil takes
>> over.
>> > Some of us smell that when it approaches and say "no". And move on or
>> > drop out or fight or...
>> >
>> > Ok, this is stuff that comes up when I look at my "assumption"
>> regarding
>> > "organisation".
>> >
>> > I would like to hear more about your "assumptions" that come up when
>> > "organisation" enters your mind.
>> >
>> > Greetings from Berlin
>> > mmp
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Am 20.08.2019 um 00:04 schrieb R Chaffe via OSList:
>> > > Chris,
>> > > I look forward to Mark?s reply to your question.  It seems to me that
>> that the question mixes up the who and the what.  Mark uses a few examples
>> including a mechanic, the first question I have is what experience the
>> trade person has my second is an example of their work.  OST is at one
>> level about the ?how? the job is done and I think that is one level the
>> question comes from.  Being able to Open Space and engage effectively with
>> the sponsor and the community of concern is an other level again.
>> > >
>> > > There is a level of trust between the sponsor and the facilitator
>> that the result the sponsor wants will be delivered.  The sponsor might ask
>> how did you do that? I suggest that they are more interested on what you as
>> facilitator delivered based on the contract.
>> > >
>> > > In many ways focusing on the how is counter productive the ?what? is
>> the thing that pays the bills and builds reputations.
>> > >
>> > > If my thinking is correct the struggle is to define a professional
>> facilitator who can deliver is the issue not what tools they use when it
>> comes to a contract.
>> > >
>> > > Regards
>> > > Rob
>> > >
>> > >> On 20 Aug 2019, at 2:31 am, Chris Corrigan via OSList <
>> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> Whenever I want to know if my work of Hosting an Open Space
>> Technology meeting was useful, I give the participants a form that sinplay
>> says ?complete the following sentence. As a result of this meeting...?
>> > >>
>> > >> The only people who should be judging the efficacy of an OST meeting
>> are the people who called it in the first place to get their work done. In
>> my experience, they are happy if the meeting has helped them.
>> > >>
>> > >> My work is always directed towards client needs. Some times we do
>> Open Space. Sometimes we do it in a way that would drive a ?by the book?
>> person crazy. But it?s about the clients. I doubt there is a way my process
>> could be formalized in a way that works better for my clients than sitting
>> down and listening to their needs.
>> > >>
>> > >> There is already a network of Open Space Institutes who steward this
>> practice. There is an international association of facilitators who can
>> join if you want certification.
>> > >>
>> > >> I find myself constantly wanting to defend this radical openness.
>> Mark, what is behind your string desire for something more formal than what
>> we already have?
>> > >>
>> > >> Chris.
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> _____________
>> > >> CHRIS CORRIGAN
>> > >> www.chriscorrigan.com
>> > >>
>> > >>> On Aug 19, 2019, at 8:29 AM, Mark Carmel via OSList <
>> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>> > >>>
>> > >>> 1st of all thank you for everyone who gave me feedback on my big
>> idea for certification. It was sincerely appreciated. However I can see it
>> was something that did not  Resonate well.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Open space technology has clearly set the standard for the
>> facilitation of peace and human understanding. It is such a powerful and
>> simple tool but highly complex. As Harrison says..  chaos plows the fields
>> of the mind so that new ideas can grow... I think there is ample chaos for
>> us to tackle right now.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> I think it is highly important for the leadership of our open space
>> world to make a decision now while we still have Harrison among us as a
>> living spirit. Because we have already set the standards why not cement the
>> standards and turn it into an everlasting association that could be
>> organized to deliver training, etc. To advance the mission of human peace
>> and understanding in a more organized way?
>> > >>>
>> > >>> If you want to be a beautician or a mechanic or a rocket scientist
>> or a city manager there are associations for that .
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Why not an association for open space technology practitioners to
>> define the standards, the ethics, code of conduct, the way that Harrison
>> has already articulated them, but to formalize them and help us get
>> organized and stay organized until we get the job done?
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Respectfully submitted,
>> > >>> Mark Carmel
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> _______________________________________________
>> > >>> OSList mailing list
>> > >>> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > >>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>> OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > >>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
>> > >>>
>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>> > >>> Past archives can be viewed here:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>> > >> _______________________________________________
>> > >> OSList mailing list
>> > >> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > >> To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > >> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
>> > >> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>> > >> Past archives can be viewed here:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > OSList mailing list
>> > > To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > > To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
>> > > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>> > > Past archives can be viewed here:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>> > >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Michael M Pannwitz
>> > Draisweg 1, 12209 Berlin, Germany
>> > ++49 - 30-772 8000
>> > mmpannwitz at gmail.com
>> >
>> >
>> > Check out the Open Space World Map presently showing 487 resident Open
>> > Space Workers in 76 countries working in a total of 142 countries
>> worldwide
>> > www.openspaceworldmap.org
>> >
>> > At my publisher you find books and task cards on open space, most in
>> > German, some in English, some as ebooks, some multilingual
>> > https://www.westkreuz-verlag.de/de/Kommunikation
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > OSList mailing list
>> > To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
>> > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>> > Past archives can be viewed here:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Barry Owen
>> > Inviter - Facilitator/Practicer of Open Space Technology
>> > Opening and Holding safe space for people and organizations to
>> self-organize around important issues and opportunities.
>> > Invite - Listen - Love
>> >
>> > 615-568-2123
>> > BarryOwen.us
>> >
>> > 4004 Hillsboro Pike B234
>> > Nashville, TN 37215
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > OSList mailing list
>> > To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
>> > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>> > Past archives can be viewed here:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > OSList mailing list
>> > To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
>> > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>> > Past archives can be viewed here:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: <
>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/pipermail/oslist-openspacetech.org/attachments/20190821/fe3d4055/attachment-0001.html
>> >
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 14:38:06 -0400
>> From: "Harrison Owen" <hhowensr at gmail.com>
>> To: "'Paul Nunesdea'" <p.nunesdea at architectingcollaboration.com>,
>>         "'World wide Open Space Technology email list'"
>>         <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> Subject: Re: [OSList] Okay...Forget Certification then...How about
>>         Co-Creating a NEW OST ASSOCIATION? Such as...THE International
>>         Association for Peace and Human Understanding...?
>> Message-ID: <001d01d5584f$937ea970$ba7bfc50$@com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Paul ? Wonderful to hear from you! And? several years ago I was in
>> Beijing with peers, colleagues and friends who collectively had doubtless
>> done many more OSTs than I ? all in a most challenging environment. They
>> asked me to say something and I replied that actually I thought it had all
>> been said some 3000 years ago by a marvelous person, Lao Tzu. And I think
>> you would be interested in a wonderful book done by an old friend, Chris
>> Corrigan called the ?Tao of Holding Space.? Chris shows up here (OSLIST)
>> more than occasionally ? Chris where are you? I think he put it up (PDF)
>> online??? You will enjoy.
>>
>>
>>
>> Harrison
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Paul Nunesdea [mailto:p.nunesdea at architectingcollaboration.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2019 2:11 PM
>> To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
>> Cc: Harrison Owen
>> Subject: Re: [OSList] Okay...Forget Certification then...How about
>> Co-Creating a NEW OST ASSOCIATION? Such as...THE International Association
>> for Peace and Human Understanding...?
>>
>>
>>
>> Greetings HO, I have been away from this list except when something
>> extraordinarily contentious happens here, and I got attracted by the
>> certification subject.
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes, just to say I am among those that used OST by reading your book + an
>> extremely helpful and long coaching call from Lisa Heft - the Open Space
>> Community's Mary Magdalene.
>>
>>
>>
>> Since then the power of self-organization never ceased to amaze me, and
>> to be honest my most precious ally when big challenges are faced.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have written books about group facilitation in my mother languages, I
>> argue OST is the ultimate group facilitation methodology, inspired by
>> seminal work of very dear IAF colleagues (and your disciples?) here in
>> Europe, Gerardo de Luzemberg and Jean-Philippe Poupard.
>>
>>
>>
>> And your answer below, reinforces my faith on this absolute mystery of
>> self-organization that have been helping me so much.
>>
>>
>>
>> Tanks for the unsuspected Dee Hock's book recommendation, I will read it
>> next.
>>
>>
>>
>> I apologize Listers if this other unsuspected reference below has already
>> been discussed here before, but I recently re-discovered Lao Tzu book Tao
>> Te Ching (the book of the way) and cannot think about the resemblances with
>> your discoveries HO.
>>
>>
>>
>> If you like listening instead of reading, this is an amazing free
>> resource on Youtube:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2UYch2JnO4
>>
>>
>>
>> I suspect Lao Tzu's interpretation of what the master will do about OST's
>> certification is just about what you have written below, beloved father.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best wishes
>>
>>
>> Paul Nunesdea | Paulo Nunes de Abreu
>>
>>  <https://www.architectingcollaboration.com/>
>> https://www.architectingcollaboration.com/
>>
>>   <http://i66.tinypic.com/iejgqe.png>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>   <
>> https://mailtrack.io/trace/mail/d216e3a1535c277cb09ec49a1834070cb6323269.png?u=4673463>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 20 Aug 2019 at 23:15, Harrison Owen via OSList <
>> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>>
>> Barry -- your notion about "scale" -- numbers of people -- is pretty
>> close to the accepted wisdom. Summed up in the old refrain, Some day we got
>> to get organized! Especially when we get bigger. Certainly makes sense,
>> keeps a lot of MBA programs in business, but simply doesn't accord with my
>> experience. First in terms of my usual standard reference... Open Spaces.
>> The curious, but I think instructive thing, is that every Open Space that I
>> have facilitated or been a part of -- regardless of size (5- 2108) has been
>> unnervingly the same. 10-15 minutes for opening, 20 min for issue
>> announcement, 30 minutes for market place arrangements (combinations,
>> reschedules, cup of coffee) 1 hour to start of first session -- and from
>> there on it all happened by itself. This has even been true in several
>> situation where a very hard working planning committee worked out every
>> detail in accord with the best meeting management protocols. Looked great
>> on paper, immediately fell apart, and just as quickly
>>  self organized, despite their best efforts. Weird!
>>
>>
>>
>> Then there is the observed behavior and accomplishments of what we might
>> vaguely call, "The Open Space Community." If you put aside all question of
>> how we got there, the accomplishments I believe are rather impressive.
>> Indeed there are very few HR consulting groups that could come anywhere
>> close. Just take the numbers: 35 years in business, minimum 500,000
>> "interventions," millions of participants, thousands of facilitators,
>> massive coverage by the international press, and a multitude of imitators
>> -- which is always a complement in a weird way. Not bad if I do say so
>> myself. AND it might be pointed out that all of this took place without a
>> shred of formal organization, no institutional funding, no defined
>> leadership structure, zero effort at standardization or certification. Why
>> would anybody want to change that ... even if you could?
>>
>>
>>
>> And then in the REAL WORLD... That would be Corporations, Governments,
>> NGOs -- I can give you any number of examples where such organizations
>> spent millions of $$$ to get organized, failed, -- and then opened some
>> space to accomplish in several days where they had failed miserably for
>> years. I "did" a few of those personally, but in most cases (if I was
>> directly involved) I advised that they save a lot of money, buy the book,
>> and do it. And of course there were any number of situations where
>> sensitive participants of one OST simply went out and "did" it again
>> without benefit of book, training, certification. Marvelous!
>>
>>
>>
>> And if you want "testimony" from a different, and presumably unbiased
>> source, check out Dee Hock, "Chaordic Organizations."
>>
>>
>>
>> Harrison (and -- of course -- also your father.)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Barry Owen via OSList <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> To: World wide Open Space Technology email list <
>> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> Cc: Barry Owen <barryowenost at gmail.com>; Michael M Pannwitz <
>> mmpannwitz at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Tue, Aug 20, 2019 11:10 am
>> Subject: Re: [OSList] Okay...Forget Certification then...How about
>> Co-Creating a NEW OST ASSOCIATION? Such as...THE International Association
>> for Peace and Human Understanding...?
>>
>> I've been mulling this over for months now.
>>
>> Have come to what I think is a conclusion that blaming the mayhem on
>> "Organisations" is akin to "shooting the messenger" . . . making it a
>> martyr.
>>
>> After all, any time there's more than one person present, it's
>> essentially the birth of an "organisation".
>>
>> I think the real problem is that of scale.
>>
>> It seems to me that, as the number "Members" increases in any
>> "gathering", the perceived "need" for organisation becomes more prevalent.
>>
>> As that dynamic evolves, the people seem to "forget" what "brung'm here"
>> . . . That is . . . those things that have never changed
>>
>>
>>
>> Breath
>>
>> Circle
>>
>> Bulletin Board
>>
>> Marketplace
>>
>> Expect to be (be prepared to be) surprised
>>
>>
>>
>> fall by the wayside as more and more "social constructs" emerge thereby
>> converting Open Space to Command and control.
>>
>> Oh yeah . . . and "keeping up with the Joneses"
>>
>>
>>
>> My opinion is that the "mandate" of "just open more space anywhere and
>> everywhere" is an open invitation for all of us (humanity) to remember to:
>>
>>
>>
>> Breathe
>>
>> Name the Theme (Important, Complex, Diversity of People/Opinions,
>> potential for conflict, need for resolution NOW)
>>
>> Invite whoever cares
>>
>> Gather in a circle
>>
>> Create the Bulletin Board
>>
>> Open the marketplace
>>
>> Get to work!
>>
>>
>>
>> and the best news is that everyone already knows how to do this . . .
>> we've just gotta remind them.
>>
>>
>>
>> So . . . I think more organisations will "get" this as we open more space
>> every day.
>>
>>
>>
>> They're not broken or corrupt!
>>
>>
>>
>> Bless their hearts . . . They're simply forgetful, and all we've gotta do
>> is remind them.
>>
>>
>>
>> or something . . .
>>
>>
>>
>> b
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 5:03 AM Michael M Pannwitz via OSList <
>> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> my assumption regarding "organisation" is that they are the work of the
>> devil.
>> They are omnipresent. There is practically nothing that can do without
>> an "organisation". Government, churches, mafia, health care, schools,
>> prisons, military, restaurants, foundations, associations, universities,
>> concentration camps, secret service, sports, museums, shipyards,
>> daycare, labour unions, political parties, courts, NGOs, NATO, ... you
>> name it.
>> Thinking beyond "organisations" seems impossible.
>> Working for, in, against, with, through, in spite of, etc.
>> "organisations" is omnipresent.
>> And to make things even worse, they all are selforganising, right?
>> And despite or because of their existence we have wars, starvation,
>> pollution, glaciers disappearing, crime, corruption, you name it.
>> Now, organisations not created by the devil but lets say by God would
>> not create such a mess.
>> One of the most lucrative businesses just about everywhere is
>> consulting. Huge consulting firms work with/for/ect. huge businesses,
>> governments, NGOs. Millions of folks work in that field helping them to
>> become better, faster, etc. in the business they are involved in.
>>
>> Now, is ost something that consulting firms are into?
>>
>> There are some forms of "systems" such as neighborhoods, circles of
>> friends, collegial counselling groups, OSonOS (local, regional,
>> worldwide), people playing soccer with a tin can on a vacant lot,
>> families, demonstrations (HongKong, Fridays for Future...), Stammtische...
>> I smile in such settings, happy myself, grow myself... in such
>> "settings" and also frustrate myself now and then. Especially when
>> "control" enters the stage.
>> And at some point many such "systems" or "settings" ossify when they
>> take on the form of "organisations". In other words, the devil takes over.
>> Some of us smell that when it approaches and say "no". And move on or
>> drop out or fight or...
>>
>> Ok, this is stuff that comes up when I look at my "assumption" regarding
>> "organisation".
>>
>> I would like to hear more about your "assumptions" that come up when
>> "organisation" enters your mind.
>>
>> Greetings from Berlin
>> mmp
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 20.08.2019 um 00:04 schrieb R Chaffe via OSList:
>> > Chris,
>> > I look forward to Mark?s reply to your question.  It seems to me that
>> that the question mixes up the who and the what.  Mark uses a few examples
>> including a mechanic, the first question I have is what experience the
>> trade person has my second is an example of their work.  OST is at one
>> level about the ?how? the job is done and I think that is one level the
>> question comes from.  Being able to Open Space and engage effectively with
>> the sponsor and the community of concern is an other level again.
>> >
>> > There is a level of trust between the sponsor and the facilitator that
>> the result the sponsor wants will be delivered.  The sponsor might ask how
>> did you do that? I suggest that they are more interested on what you as
>> facilitator delivered based on the contract.
>> >
>> > In many ways focusing on the how is counter productive the ?what? is
>> the thing that pays the bills and builds reputations.
>> >
>> > If my thinking is correct the struggle is to define a professional
>> facilitator who can deliver is the issue not what tools they use when it
>> comes to a contract.
>> >
>> > Regards
>> > Rob
>> >
>> >> On 20 Aug 2019, at 2:31 am, Chris Corrigan via OSList <
>> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Whenever I want to know if my work of Hosting an Open Space Technology
>> meeting was useful, I give the participants a form that sinplay says
>> ?complete the following sentence. As a result of this meeting...?
>> >>
>> >> The only people who should be judging the efficacy of an OST meeting
>> are the people who called it in the first place to get their work done. In
>> my experience, they are happy if the meeting has helped them.
>> >>
>> >> My work is always directed towards client needs. Some times we do Open
>> Space. Sometimes we do it in a way that would drive a ?by the book? person
>> crazy. But it?s about the clients. I doubt there is a way my process could
>> be formalized in a way that works better for my clients than sitting down
>> and listening to their needs.
>> >>
>> >> There is already a network of Open Space Institutes who steward this
>> practice. There is an international association of facilitators who can
>> join if you want certification.
>> >>
>> >> I find myself constantly wanting to defend this radical openness.
>> Mark, what is behind your string desire for something more formal than what
>> we already have?
>> >>
>> >> Chris.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _____________
>> >> CHRIS CORRIGAN
>> >> www.chriscorrigan.com
>> >>
>> >>> On Aug 19, 2019, at 8:29 AM, Mark Carmel via OSList <
>> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> 1st of all thank you for everyone who gave me feedback on my big idea
>> for certification. It was sincerely appreciated. However I can see it was
>> something that did not  Resonate well.
>> >>>
>> >>> Open space technology has clearly set the standard for the
>> facilitation of peace and human understanding. It is such a powerful and
>> simple tool but highly complex. As Harrison says..  chaos plows the fields
>> of the mind so that new ideas can grow... I think there is ample chaos for
>> us to tackle right now.
>> >>>
>> >>> I think it is highly important for the leadership of our open space
>> world to make a decision now while we still have Harrison among us as a
>> living spirit. Because we have already set the standards why not cement the
>> standards and turn it into an everlasting association that could be
>> organized to deliver training, etc. To advance the mission of human peace
>> and understanding in a more organized way?
>> >>>
>> >>> If you want to be a beautician or a mechanic or a rocket scientist or
>> a city manager there are associations for that .
>> >>>
>> >>> Why not an association for open space technology practitioners to
>> define the standards, the ethics, code of conduct, the way that Harrison
>> has already articulated them, but to formalize them and help us get
>> organized and stay organized until we get the job done?
>> >>>
>> >>> Respectfully submitted,
>> >>> Mark Carmel
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> OSList mailing list
>> >>> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
>> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
>> >>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
>> >>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>> >>> Past archives can be viewed here:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> OSList mailing list
>> >> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
>> >> To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
>> >> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
>> >> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>> >> Past archives can be viewed here:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > OSList mailing list
>> > To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
>> > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>> > Past archives can be viewed here:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>> >
>>
>> --
>> Michael M Pannwitz
>> Draisweg 1, 12209 Berlin, Germany
>> ++49 - 30-772 8000
>> mmpannwitz at gmail.com
>>
>>
>> Check out the Open Space World Map presently showing 487 resident Open
>> Space Workers in 76 countries working in a total of 142 countries
>> worldwide
>> www.openspaceworldmap.org
>>
>> At my publisher you find books and task cards on open space, most in
>> German, some in English, some as ebooks, some multilingual
>> https://www.westkreuz-verlag.de/de/Kommunikation
>> _______________________________________________
>> OSList mailing list
>> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
>> To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>> Past archives can be viewed here:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Barry Owen
>>
>> Inviter - Facilitator/Practicer of Open Space Technology
>>
>> Opening and Holding safe space for people and organizations to
>> self-organize around important issues and opportunities.
>>
>> Invite - Listen - Love
>>
>>
>>
>> 615-568-2123
>>
>> BarryOwen.us
>>
>>
>>
>> 4004 Hillsboro Pike B234
>>
>> Nashville, TN 37215
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OSList mailing list
>> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
>> To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>> Past archives can be viewed here:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OSList mailing list
>> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
>> To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
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>> Message: 4
>> Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 12:21:55 -0700
>> From: Chris Corrigan <chris.corrigan at gmail.com>
>> To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
>>         <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> Cc: Paul Nunesdea <p.nunesdea at architectingcollaboration.com>, Harrison
>>         Owen <hhowensr at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [OSList] Okay...Forget Certification then...How about
>>         Co-Creating a NEW OST ASSOCIATION? Such as...THE International
>>         Association for Peace and Human Understanding...?
>> Message-ID: <CEDC9CD9-DD70-4C38-AFDE-97DEBCDDB8A6 at gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Right here. Here are the links for the Tao of Holding Space and if you?d
>> like a beautiful designed copy email me for details.
>>
>>
>> http://www.chriscorrigan.com/parkinglot/the-tao-of-holding-space/
>>
>> Chris
>> _____________
>> CHRIS CORRIGAN
>> www.chriscorrigan.com
>>
>> > On Aug 21, 2019, at 11:38 AM, Harrison Owen via OSList <
>> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > Paul ? Wonderful to hear from you! And? several years ago I was in
>> Beijing with peers, colleagues and friends who collectively had doubtless
>> done many more OSTs than I ? all in a most challenging environment. They
>> asked me to say something and I replied that actually I thought it had all
>> been said some 3000 years ago by a marvelous person, Lao Tzu. And I think
>> you would be interested in a wonderful book done by an old friend, Chris
>> Corrigan called the ?Tao of Holding Space.? Chris shows up here (OSLIST)
>> more than occasionally ? Chris where are you? I think he put it up (PDF)
>> online??? You will enjoy.
>> >
>> > Harrison
>> >
>> > From: Paul Nunesdea [mailto:p.nunesdea at architectingcollaboration.com]
>> > Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2019 2:11 PM
>> > To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
>> > Cc: Harrison Owen
>> > Subject: Re: [OSList] Okay...Forget Certification then...How about
>> Co-Creating a NEW OST ASSOCIATION? Such as...THE International Association
>> for Peace and Human Understanding...?
>> >
>> > Greetings HO, I have been away from this list except when something
>> extraordinarily contentious happens here, and I got attracted by the
>> certification subject.
>> >
>> > Yes, just to say I am among those that used OST by reading your book +
>> an extremely helpful and long coaching call from Lisa Heft - the Open Space
>> Community's Mary Magdalene.
>> >
>> > Since then the power of self-organization never ceased to amaze me, and
>> to be honest my most precious ally when big challenges are faced.
>> >
>> > I have written books about group facilitation in my mother languages, I
>> argue OST is the ultimate group facilitation methodology, inspired by
>> seminal work of very dear IAF colleagues (and your disciples?) here in
>> Europe, Gerardo de Luzemberg and Jean-Philippe Poupard.
>> >
>> > And your answer below, reinforces my faith on this absolute mystery of
>> self-organization that have been helping me so much.
>> >
>> > Tanks for the unsuspected Dee Hock's book recommendation, I will read
>> it next.
>> >
>> > I apologize Listers if this other unsuspected reference below has
>> already been discussed here before, but I recently re-discovered Lao Tzu
>> book Tao Te Ching (the book of the way) and cannot think about the
>> resemblances with your discoveries HO.
>> >
>> > If you like listening instead of reading, this is an amazing free
>> resource on Youtube:
>> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2UYch2JnO4
>> >
>> > I suspect Lao Tzu's interpretation of what the master will do about
>> OST's certification is just about what you have written below, beloved
>> father.
>> >
>> > Best wishes
>> > Paul Nunesdea | Paulo Nunes de Abreu
>> > https://www.architectingcollaboration.com/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, 20 Aug 2019 at 23:15, Harrison Owen via OSList <
>> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>> > Barry -- your notion about "scale" -- numbers of people -- is pretty
>> close to the accepted wisdom. Summed up in the old refrain, Some day we got
>> to get organized! Especially when we get bigger. Certainly makes sense,
>> keeps a lot of MBA programs in business, but simply doesn't accord with my
>> experience. First in terms of my usual standard reference... Open Spaces.
>> The curious, but I think instructive thing, is that every Open Space that I
>> have facilitated or been a part of -- regardless of size (5- 2108) has been
>> unnervingly the same. 10-15 minutes for opening, 20 min for issue
>> announcement, 30 minutes for market place arrangements (combinations,
>> reschedules, cup of coffee) 1 hour to start of first session -- and from
>> there on it all happened by itself. This has even been true in several
>> situation where a very hard working planning committee worked out every
>> detail in accord with the best meeting management protocols. Looked great
>> on paper, immediately fell apart, and just as quickl
>>  y self organized, despite their best efforts. Weird!
>> >
>> > Then there is the observed behavior and accomplishments of what we
>> might vaguely call, "The Open Space Community." If you put aside all
>> question of how we got there, the accomplishments I believe are rather
>> impressive. Indeed there are very few HR consulting groups that could come
>> anywhere close. Just take the numbers: 35 years in business, minimum
>> 500,000 "interventions," millions of participants, thousands of
>> facilitators, massive coverage by the international press, and a multitude
>> of imitators -- which is always a complement in a weird way. Not bad if I
>> do say so myself. AND it might be pointed out that all of this took place
>> without a shred of formal organization, no institutional funding, no
>> defined leadership structure, zero effort at standardization or
>> certification. Why would anybody want to change that ... even if you could?
>> >
>> > And then in the REAL WORLD... That would be Corporations, Governments,
>> NGOs -- I can give you any number of examples where such organizations
>> spent millions of $$$ to get organized, failed, -- and then opened some
>> space to accomplish in several days where they had failed miserably for
>> years. I "did" a few of those personally, but in most cases (if I was
>> directly involved) I advised that they save a lot of money, buy the book,
>> and do it. And of course there were any number of situations where
>> sensitive participants of one OST simply went out and "did" it again
>> without benefit of book, training, certification. Marvelous!
>> >
>> > And if you want "testimony" from a different, and presumably unbiased
>> source, check out Dee Hock, "Chaordic Organizations."
>> >
>> > Harrison (and -- of course -- also your father.)
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Barry Owen via OSList <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> > To: World wide Open Space Technology email list <
>> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> > Cc: Barry Owen <barryowenost at gmail.com>; Michael M Pannwitz <
>> mmpannwitz at gmail.com>
>> > Sent: Tue, Aug 20, 2019 11:10 am
>> > Subject: Re: [OSList] Okay...Forget Certification then...How about
>> Co-Creating a NEW OST ASSOCIATION? Such as...THE International Association
>> for Peace and Human Understanding...?
>> >
>> > I've been mulling this over for months now.
>> > Have come to what I think is a conclusion that blaming the mayhem on
>> "Organisations" is akin to "shooting the messenger" . . . making it a
>> martyr.
>> > After all, any time there's more than one person present, it's
>> essentially the birth of an "organisation".
>> > I think the real problem is that of scale.
>> > It seems to me that, as the number "Members" increases in any
>> "gathering", the perceived "need" for organisation becomes more prevalent.
>> > As that dynamic evolves, the people seem to "forget" what "brung'm
>> here" . . . That is . . . those things that have never changed
>> >
>> > Breath
>> > Circle
>> > Bulletin Board
>> > Marketplace
>> > Expect to be (be prepared to be) surprised
>> >
>> > fall by the wayside as more and more "social constructs" emerge thereby
>> converting Open Space to Command and control.
>> > Oh yeah . . . and "keeping up with the Joneses"
>> >
>> > My opinion is that the "mandate" of "just open more space anywhere and
>> everywhere" is an open invitation for all of us (humanity) to remember to:
>> >
>> > Breathe
>> > Name the Theme (Important, Complex, Diversity of People/Opinions,
>> potential for conflict, need for resolution NOW)
>> > Invite whoever cares
>> > Gather in a circle
>> > Create the Bulletin Board
>> > Open the marketplace
>> > Get to work!
>> >
>> > and the best news is that everyone already knows how to do this . . .
>> we've just gotta remind them.
>> >
>> > So . . . I think more organisations will "get" this as we open more
>> space every day.
>> >
>> > They're not broken or corrupt!
>> >
>> > Bless their hearts . . . They're simply forgetful, and all we've gotta
>> do is remind them.
>> >
>> > or something . . .
>> >
>> > b
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 5:03 AM Michael M Pannwitz via OSList <
>> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>> > Dear all,
>> >
>> > my assumption regarding "organisation" is that they are the work of the
>> > devil.
>> > They are omnipresent. There is practically nothing that can do without
>> > an "organisation". Government, churches, mafia, health care, schools,
>> > prisons, military, restaurants, foundations, associations,
>> universities,
>> > concentration camps, secret service, sports, museums, shipyards,
>> > daycare, labour unions, political parties, courts, NGOs, NATO, ... you
>> > name it.
>> > Thinking beyond "organisations" seems impossible.
>> > Working for, in, against, with, through, in spite of, etc.
>> > "organisations" is omnipresent.
>> > And to make things even worse, they all are selforganising, right?
>> > And despite or because of their existence we have wars, starvation,
>> > pollution, glaciers disappearing, crime, corruption, you name it.
>> > Now, organisations not created by the devil but lets say by God would
>> > not create such a mess.
>> > One of the most lucrative businesses just about everywhere is
>> > consulting. Huge consulting firms work with/for/ect. huge businesses,
>> > governments, NGOs. Millions of folks work in that field helping them to
>> > become better, faster, etc. in the business they are involved in.
>> >
>> > Now, is ost something that consulting firms are into?
>> >
>> > There are some forms of "systems" such as neighborhoods, circles of
>> > friends, collegial counselling groups, OSonOS (local, regional,
>> > worldwide), people playing soccer with a tin can on a vacant lot,
>> > families, demonstrations (HongKong, Fridays for Future...),
>> Stammtische...
>> > I smile in such settings, happy myself, grow myself... in such
>> > "settings" and also frustrate myself now and then. Especially when
>> > "control" enters the stage.
>> > And at some point many such "systems" or "settings" ossify when they
>> > take on the form of "organisations". In other words, the devil takes
>> over.
>> > Some of us smell that when it approaches and say "no". And move on or
>> > drop out or fight or...
>> >
>> > Ok, this is stuff that comes up when I look at my "assumption"
>> regarding
>> > "organisation".
>> >
>> > I would like to hear more about your "assumptions" that come up when
>> > "organisation" enters your mind.
>> >
>> > Greetings from Berlin
>> > mmp
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Am 20.08.2019 um 00:04 schrieb R Chaffe via OSList:
>> > > Chris,
>> > > I look forward to Mark?s reply to your question.  It seems to me that
>> that the question mixes up the who and the what.  Mark uses a few examples
>> including a mechanic, the first question I have is what experience the
>> trade person has my second is an example of their work.  OST is at one
>> level about the ?how? the job is done and I think that is one level the
>> question comes from.  Being able to Open Space and engage effectively with
>> the sponsor and the community of concern is an other level again.
>> > >
>> > > There is a level of trust between the sponsor and the facilitator
>> that the result the sponsor wants will be delivered.  The sponsor might ask
>> how did you do that? I suggest that they are more interested on what you as
>> facilitator delivered based on the contract.
>> > >
>> > > In many ways focusing on the how is counter productive the ?what? is
>> the thing that pays the bills and builds reputations.
>> > >
>> > > If my thinking is correct the struggle is to define a professional
>> facilitator who can deliver is the issue not what tools they use when it
>> comes to a contract.
>> > >
>> > > Regards
>> > > Rob
>> > >
>> > >> On 20 Aug 2019, at 2:31 am, Chris Corrigan via OSList <
>> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> Whenever I want to know if my work of Hosting an Open Space
>> Technology meeting was useful, I give the participants a form that sinplay
>> says ?complete the following sentence. As a result of this meeting...?
>> > >>
>> > >> The only people who should be judging the efficacy of an OST meeting
>> are the people who called it in the first place to get their work done. In
>> my experience, they are happy if the meeting has helped them.
>> > >>
>> > >> My work is always directed towards client needs. Some times we do
>> Open Space. Sometimes we do it in a way that would drive a ?by the book?
>> person crazy. But it?s about the clients. I doubt there is a way my process
>> could be formalized in a way that works better for my clients than sitting
>> down and listening to their needs.
>> > >>
>> > >> There is already a network of Open Space Institutes who steward this
>> practice. There is an international association of facilitators who can
>> join if you want certification.
>> > >>
>> > >> I find myself constantly wanting to defend this radical openness.
>> Mark, what is behind your string desire for something more formal than what
>> we already have?
>> > >>
>> > >> Chris.
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> _____________
>> > >> CHRIS CORRIGAN
>> > >> www.chriscorrigan.com
>> > >>
>> > >>> On Aug 19, 2019, at 8:29 AM, Mark Carmel via OSList <
>> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>> > >>>
>> > >>> 1st of all thank you for everyone who gave me feedback on my big
>> idea for certification. It was sincerely appreciated. However I can see it
>> was something that did not  Resonate well.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Open space technology has clearly set the standard for the
>> facilitation of peace and human understanding. It is such a powerful and
>> simple tool but highly complex. As Harrison says..  chaos plows the fields
>> of the mind so that new ideas can grow... I think there is ample chaos for
>> us to tackle right now.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> I think it is highly important for the leadership of our open space
>> world to make a decision now while we still have Harrison among us as a
>> living spirit. Because we have already set the standards why not cement the
>> standards and turn it into an everlasting association that could be
>> organized to deliver training, etc. To advance the mission of human peace
>> and understanding in a more organized way?
>> > >>>
>> > >>> If you want to be a beautician or a mechanic or a rocket scientist
>> or a city manager there are associations for that .
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Why not an association for open space technology practitioners to
>> define the standards, the ethics, code of conduct, the way that Harrison
>> has already articulated them, but to formalize them and help us get
>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/to+formalize+them+and+help+us+get?entry=gmail&source=g>
>> organized and stay organized until we get the job done?
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Respectfully submitted,
>> > >>> Mark Carmel
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> _______________________________________________
>> > >>> OSList mailing list
>> > >>> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > >>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>> OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > >>> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
>> > >>>
>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>> > >>> Past archives can be viewed here:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>> > >> _______________________________________________
>> > >> OSList mailing list
>> > >> To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > >> To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > >> To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
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>> > >> Past archives can be viewed here:
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>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > OSList mailing list
>> > > To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > > To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
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>> > > Past archives can be viewed here:
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>> > >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Michael M Pannwitz
>> > Draisweg 1, 12209 Berlin, Germany
>> > ++49 - 30-772 8000
>> > mmpannwitz at gmail.com
>> >
>> >
>> > Check out the Open Space World Map presently showing 487 resident Open
>> > Space Workers in 76 countries working in a total of 142 countries
>> worldwide
>> > www.openspaceworldmap.org
>> >
>> > At my publisher you find books and task cards on open space, most in
>> > German, some in English, some as ebooks, some multilingual
>> > https://www.westkreuz-verlag.de/de/Kommunikation
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > OSList mailing list
>> > To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > To unsubscribe send an email to OSList-leave at lists.openspacetech.org
>> > To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
>> > http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
>> > Past archives can be viewed here:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/oslist@lists.openspacetech.org
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Barry Owen
>> > Inviter - Facilitator/Practicer of Open Space Technology
>> > Opening and Holding safe space for people and organizations to
>> self-organize around important issues and opportunities.
>> > Invite - Listen - Love
>> >
>> > 615-568-2123
>> > BarryOwen.us
>> >
>> > 4004 Hillsboro Pike B234
>> > Nashville, TN 37215
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > OSList mailing list
>> > To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
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>> > Past archives can be viewed here:
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>> > _______________________________________________
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>
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