[OSList] on pricing (was: Is there experience in developing Open Space further in organizations and networks after the initial intervention)

Wed Aug 15 09:07:28 PDT 2018

Dear colleagues, 

I am very grateful for all the sharing on pricing. 

It helps me, as I am in the process of finding a pricing model that is in alignment with my values and the way I work.
The way I process doesn’t fit with an internal time-punch machine. When I take on a contract, I can’t even distinguish how many days I am busy with it. 
It’s with me when I go swimming, in my mediation. I may have my best ideas while on a walk in the woods...

Please keep it coming!
Marai

http://www.about.me/maraikiele

> Am 13.08.2018 um 19:48 schrieb Michael Herman via OSList <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>:
> 
> In my experience, Robin, every situation is different.  If there was such a table, I suspect it would have MANY rates.  Kind of like asking, "What is the going rate for an artist?"  Depends greatly on the artist, the asker, and many things about the situation and duration of the work/impact desired.  Sometimes there is already a budget, so quoting prices doesn't matter and it's more a question of what can be done within that limit.  Other times, there is an emphasis on the quality of the work such that any price is okay as long as everything goes well.  Sometimes it surprises clients that there should be preparation time, it's not just a technical task we show up for the day of the meeting/event.  
> 
> If there's any rule at all for me, it might be that the conversation needs to focus first on what's happening, what's desired and expected, what's already decided and where there might be uncertainty or complete unknowns.  All of these things in terms of the context, the leadership/sponsorhip, the invitation, invitation list, logistics, documentation or otherwise keeping things going, AND in terms of budget, previous experience with OS or other facilitators.  The tricky part, in my experience, is that the most important work often happens in the earliest conversations, before anyone agrees to pay anything.  So it's a bit of line to walk, helping them see/understand the value but not spending too much time/energy before there's a commitment.  And that line is different with every potential and situation.  
> 
> I once had a first meeting with a leader and her board chair.  They decided against doing the "event" we'd discussed, but she said she wanted to pay me something, anyway.  Turns out we'd opened enough space in our first conversation that she'd gotten to raise the issues that mattered most and gotten important "action" on them.  So we agreed on a fee and I sent her an invoice.  What I take from this and some of the previous stories in this thread is that we need to be quoting for their value not our time.  I estimate days, but I share more and less of that calculation as needed in any situation.  I try to keep the focus on what we need to do, toward achieving what large and important purpose, with no guarantees or promises to control the group, for what total fee.  And sometimes the "daily rate" is quite high.  Then, having agreed to that fee, I spend whatever time I find is needed.  So any quoted rate may or may not end up being the actual rate earned.  With experience and with the learning we do in the first conversation(s), focused on the work not the fee, we can do pretty well with the estimating.
> 
> Speaking of invoices, I guess the one other "rule" I have is that once we have that initial conversation and agree on some scope of engagement and fee amount, with almost every client, that fee is billed in two parts.  The first half is billed and payable immediately, the second half plus expenses is billed upon completion.  Sometimes the plane ticket gets rolled into the first invoice.  This accomplishes a lot of useful things.  One of which is that it de-emphasizes contracting that often has a legalistic, us-them, and/or guarantees flavor to it and emphasizes, instead, real action.  When they say, "Book a ticket and send the first invoice," we all know it's really game on, going to happen.  Another is that in the most complex, energy-intensive situations, which tend to be the higher fees, when I show up, only half my pay feels "at risk."  It feels like my client and I go into the unknown of the opening circle with more balance in the risk and relationship.  
> 
> Geoff Bellman, in his book, "The Consultant's Calling," has a little bit on this topic.  The line I remember best and use from time to time is, "I'd like to make/earn/bill $____ for this work."  It's not about imposing a fee structure.  It's maybe not up to the consultant at all.  But there is also sense of "This is what I think this is worth" and "This is what I'd feel good about trading for the energy I think this is going to take."  Implicit in the latter is some expectation of the energy that'll be required.  And if that quoted price is outside of what's expected, there are several lines to pursue in the conversation that follows.  Often, I propose a range, as well, which gives me some wiggle room, because we never really know what we're walking into.  It's nice to make a little extra when the going gets rough in preparations or the work proves especially valuable and it's nice to leave a little on the table when things go easy or maybe unsettling things turn up at the end.
> 
> So maybe there are at least two questions inside of your question, Robin... How much do you think clients will pay for our work (how/how much do they value our work)?  AND how much do you like to get paid for doing this kind of work?  And then, for what sorts of clients, issues, purposes, places, etc.  And then, what do we do when the two numbers are different?  Or when your value and mine are perceived as equal by a client out facilitator shopping, but each us wants to get paid something different?  
> 
> Michael
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>  
> --
> 
> Michael Herman
> Michael Herman Associates
> 312-280-7838 (mobile)
> 
> http://MichaelHerman.com <http://michaelherman.com/>
> http://OpenSpaceWorld.org <http://openspaceworld.org/>
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Aug 13, 2018 at 10:14 AM, Robin Muretisch, Facilitative Insights, LLC via OSList <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>> wrote:
> Hi.  I’ve recently started my own facilitation business, coming from many years in a corporate environment.  Having a reference for going rates would be helpful, to ensure I’m charging clients appropriately.  I’ve scoured OpenSpaceWorld.org (amazingly helpful site!!) but can’t find anything on rates.  Is there a resource you could point me to (on that site or elsewhere) that provides going rates for Open Space Facilitation in various regions of the world/countries?  Thanks.
> 
>  
> 
> Robin D. H. Muretisch, CPF, MBA, CPA
> 
> robin at facinsights.com <mailto:robin at facinsights.com>  |  770.371.5874  |  <image001.jpg> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/robin-muretisch/>
> <image003.png>
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> From: OSList <oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org>> On Behalf Of David Smith via OSList
> Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2018 11:19 PM
> To: 'World wide Open Space Technology email list' <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>>
> Cc: imaginac at bigpond.net.au <mailto:imaginac at bigpond.net.au>
> 
> Subject: Re: [OSList] Is there experience in developing Open Space further in organizations and networks after the initial intervention
> 
>  
> 
> Hi Harrison and Rob,
> 
> I similarly put in a quote for making a multimedia video/presentation for an environmental engineering company. The project manager contacted me and said I was far and away the best qualified person for the job but my quote was far and away the lowest – would I consider doubling it to avoid embarrassing the others...
> 
> What can you say?
> 
> David Smith
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Dr David Smith
> BSc(Hons) PhD FRSA
> Trading as imaginACTION 
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> 50 Sweyn Street
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> david at imaginaction.net.au <mailto:david at imaginaction.net.au>
> www.imaginaction.net.au <http://www.imaginaction.net.au/>
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> imaginACTION
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> From: OSList [mailto:oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org>] On Behalf Of R Chaffe via OSList
> Sent: 13 August, 2018 9:04 AM
> To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
> Cc: R Chaffe
> Subject: Re: [OSList] Is there experience in developing Open Space further in organizations and networks after the initial intervention
> 
>  
> 
> Harrison, yes.  
> 
>  
> 
> On the other hand a client almost demanded that I increase my fee by 30%.  My comment was we had a contract and I intended to keep to the agreed cost.  The underlying issue was that my event had been so successful that it made other similar events look very expensive.  Yet all that happened was that the process gave voice to all present.
> 
>  
> 
> Rob
> 
> 
> On 13 Aug 2018, at 12:41 am, Harrison Owen via OSList <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>> wrote:
> 
> Rob – you have identified one of the most curious aspects of dealing with clients and/or potential clients regarding Open Space. It’s too simple. Couldn’t possibly happen, and doesn’t cost enough. I had one (major) corporate client who told me to double my fee otherwise, he said, he couldn’t possibly get the contract through the front office. I did what he asked and always felt rather guilty about it all. But he was very happy, and of course the Open Space “worked” as usual. For obvious reasons all names are withheld to protect the innocent and gullible J
> 
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> ho
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> From: OSList [mailto:oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org>] On Behalf Of R Chaffe via OSList
> Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2018 10:02 PM
> To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
> Cc: R Chaffe
> Subject: Re: [OSList] Is there experience in developing Open Space further in organizations and networks after the initial intervention
> 
>  
> 
> Harrison, the process is so comfortable ie sitting in circles, speaking when there is something to say, listening to others, keeping our minds open to insights and differences etc.  Yes we do it all the time!  Therein lies an issue for those looking for the “silver” bullet from “outside” as the promise we can make is for an opportunity to explore issues and opportunities associated with a particular question we have little control on what might come and we have faith in the community of concern will have the best ways of dealing with their concern.  Sometimes it is a “road to Damascus experience and most of the time it is an insight that needs to be explored.   This raises another issue for those who think the one meeting will be all that is required and blindly race into the future thinking that change is something that others do.  Opening the space is more a process than an event and seeing / believing in this is one of the main stays of Open Space along with the faith that within the community of concern we have the power to implement insights and directions gained from empowering the community to “live”.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Rob
> 
> 
> On 12 Aug 2018, at 5:09 am, Jan Hoglund via OSList <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>> wrote:
> 
> Thanks for your reflections Harrison!
> 
> Rachel Naomi Remen also speaks about 'who and what' we already are:
> 
> "The power to repair the world is already in you."
> "In befriending life, we do not make things happen according to our own design. We uncover something that is already happening in us and around us and create conditions that enable it. Everything is moving toward its place of wholeness. Befriending life requires that we listen for that potential which is trying to actualize itself over time. … It is not about mastering life, controlling it or exerting our will over it, no matter how well intentioned our will may be. … It means listening to life from the place in us that is connected to the wholeness around us. The place in us that is also whole."
> —Rachel Naomi Remen, My Grandfather's Blessings
> 
> I assume this is somewhat in line with your thinking? Maybe 'blessing' a space, or an organization, is a way to open it further? And it opens yourself. Just a thought.
> 
> Thanks again,
> /Jan Höglund, Sweden
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
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