[OSList] The Tyranny of Structurelessness
Anne A Hiha via OSList
oslist at lists.openspacetech.org
Thu Oct 8 00:50:57 PDT 2015
Thanks Michael
It must be my settings because I don't have a 'List' option. This is what I get when I post to the list - that is exactly what I posted.
It is not a problem as long as I remember to add the OS address.
Kind regards
Anne
To: oslist at lists.openspacetech.org
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 13:47:42 +1300
Subject: Re: [OSList] The Tyranny of Structurelessness
From: oslist at lists.openspacetech.org
Hi all
On where the replies go.
I have noticed that my email automatively defaults to the postee's e-address. I have to cut and paste the open space address into the 'To' for it to be posted to this list. This situation may be the same for others. I tested my theory on this email with the 'reply' and 'reply all' functions with the same result that the reply would have gone direct to Daniel if I had proceded.
I don't know whether this issue is related to my email setup or OsList's.
Kind regards
Anne
To: oslist at lists.openspacetech.org
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 19:53:01 -0400
Subject: Re: [OSList] The Tyranny of Structurelessness
From: oslist at lists.openspacetech.org
mmp,
Thanks for posting this under [The Tyranny of Structurelessness.]
How interesting that subscribers feel more comfortable contacting
you personally by email, rather than responding here.
Apparently you are more approachable for interactions and/or easier
to interact with than OSLIST. I'm sure there is more than one
specific reason "why" this might be true.
Daniel
On 10/7/15 5:16 PM, Michael M Pannwitz
via OSList wrote:
One of
the structures, customs, ways of doing stuff, call it what you
prefer I have repeatedly noticed: A number of Members of the LIST
I never see on the LIST send responses to stuff I put on the LIST.
When I think a message would be great for the whole LIST to see,
I suggest it to the sender. Them Lurkers are definitely a "call it
what you prefer" element of our organisation.
Cheers from Berlin
mmp
On 07.10.2015 22:48, Michael Herman via OSList wrote:
wasn't actually intended as personal
feedback, daniel. was meant to be
a comment on the territory we all share, even when we might, any
of us,
feel in the moment like an outsider, that disorientation is
actually a
part of being included in the experience of open space.
as for the essay, i guess i'm still a little unclear about the
connection. open space doesn't strike me as any sort of
striving for
structurelessness. and i've seen both formal and informal
structure
arise in open space. harrison's term in his "millennial
organization"
book and what i've seen happen is "appropriate levels of
structure and
control."
the oslist doesn't seem structureless, either. there are all
kinds of
limiting and supporting structures that make it possible. and
then
there are the customs we've developed, like it's common and
desired for
people to reply to the whole list with answers to questions, and
even
personal stories and sidebars, rather than always taking that
stuff to
private emails. much of the informal stuff was captured in
chris
corrigan's oslist faq's i mentioned earlier. and these things
change.
the address changed. the admin changed. the archives moved
but
survived, thanks to harold. now we allow attachments. the
archives
were private and later became publicly searchable. new people
show up
all the time, and join in. the user's non-guide (ebook)
captured one
great moment in joining when julie smith showed up very new to
all of
this, asked some great questions, and sparked all kinds of
conversation
on many important dimensions of the practice.
maybe your definition of structure will also define
structureless. i
guess i don't know what ever could be structureless, in line
wiht chris'
story... except that everything's moving, it's all flow, as
harrison
says. but maybe those two stories aren't at odds, either...
some bits
are just more dense or more slowly flowing than others, but it's
all
flow in the end. is flow structureless?
is the tyranny of structurelessness just to say that
everything's
moving, and moving on, even the parts we really like, and that
can make
for some difficult experiences... that would also be nobody's
fault, but
just part of the shared condition? uncomfortable in spots, to
be sure,
but nobody's and no system's "fault" or "responsibility?"
as mentioned earlier, OS and the circle don't make people
equal. some
will always be better, faster, stronger, more attractive, more
connected
than others. is thta a problem to be solved? i'm having some
trouble
connecting "elites," "movement," "authorization" and some other
terms in
the essay to my experience in open space and on the list. the
essay
seems to want to fix a problem, but one that's not familiar to
me, at
least not as a sort of thing to be solved.
why is this essay important for you? how does it inform your
understanding and practice of open space? or your participation
on the
oslist? are we a movement? are you an elite? is open space at
risk of
being taken over? help me make the connection(s)?
i notice that you said in your first message that you find this
"extremely interesting" but you've yet to say why.
--
Michael Herman
Michael Herman Associates
http://MichaelHerman.com
http://OpenSpaceWorld.org
On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 2:25 PM, Daniel Mezick
<dan at newtechusa.net
<mailto:dan at newtechusa.net>> wrote:
Yo Michael,
The whole "story-context-is-missing" thing is really just a
sidebar
to the important (and much wider) issues around authority.
These authority-issues are raised by the subject essay, "The
Tyranny
of Structurelessness." What a great essay!
Story-context is a really, really important topic though,
especially
if "missing-context" does have at least the potential to
evoke
feelings of exclusion, in at least some members of the list.
Regarding some of the things you are saying:
You say, "Exclusion is the illusion. A little bit of errant
and
temporary mental structure."
I say, my current belief is that my feelings are not
illusion
whatsoever, nor are they error. Rather they are real and
valid,
human emotions. They are emotions which, when experienced
fully, are
in fact an essential aspect of living well.
You say, "...I notice the word tyranny again in the subject.
Is it
not some kind of tyranny we all attempt over and over again
when we
expect and insist that the world explain itself to/for us?"
I say, my current belief is that inquiry is not simply
important, it
is in fact essential. Inquiry is good.
In any event, and as always, I do appreciate your feedback.
I am now keen to get back to the main topic !
I wonder how we might, in the here and now, go about
defining the
term "structure," for purposes of further discussing issues
raised
by this essay with much more clarity.
That's a question I'm keen to explore with you, and the
other
members of this list, inside this thread.
Regards,
Daniel
http://www.Prime-OS.com
On 10/6/15 11:56 AM, Michael Herman wrote:
Yes and Daniel, there are the words
of a story and the
feeling/meaning of it. I considered writing a longer
message in
the telling of this story, but I wanted to transmit as
much of the
spirit/experience of it as I could.
Ralph didn't offer any explanation of his observation that
morning. He did just like I said, got up in a morning news
circle,
it was an OTgathering as I noted but that doesn't matter,
it was
open space and morning news. He said his piece and sat
down. The
experience for me, and others I have learned only later,
was
stunning and disorienting, for sure.
I thought to honor and convey this experience through some
measure
of similar brevity in my retelling. Maybe this is what you
picked
up on. The disorienting magic of Ralph's moment.
There are moments in open space of surprise and
disconnect, maybe
frustration or confusion or misunderstanding or
disorientation and
even disappointment that arise in open space. This we all
know and
have experienced. This, to me, is not so much a thing to
be solved
but the nature of the territory. It just is.
Ralph never did explain his statement, as far as I know.
He had
something to say and he said it. That was his only job.
After
that, each of us had to figure out for ourselves what, if
anything, to do with his story, to decide if it was wisdom
or
wisecrack. The storyteller, I think, has only the
responsibility
for finding and sharing what's true for him/her. The rest
is up
to us.
Maybe this points to the learning and challenge that we
all have
in open space, namely learning to trust more and more that
we
already are always included in a flow that is bigger and
deeper or
whatever than we can see or understand or articulate
sometimes.
Exclusion is the illusion. A little bit of errant and
temporary
mental structure. Discomfort is not a problem (and can't
be solved
by anyone!); it's a trail marker. Which is to say about
exclusion
and missing out, "welcome!" The good news is, and the bad
news
is, you're in! And, it's all still happening Now.
As I scroll up to send tha now, I notice the word tyranny
again in
the subject. Is it not some kind of tyranny we all attempt
over
and over again when we expect and insist that the world
explain
itself to/for us? Is this not something of our central
challenge,
something all of us work with? The edge of open space is
an end
of comfortable, conventional understanding? Or something?
On Tuesday, October 6, 2015, Daniel Mezick via OSList
<<mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>oslist at lists.openspacetech.org
<mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>> wrote:
Hi Harrison,
Thanks for the tips on how to search OSLIST and
Google, etc. I
did do those things actually. However, that's a bit of
an
effort, especially searching the OSLIST archives. I
guess I
could eventually pick up OSLIST culture that way,
little by
little. I suppose an earnest person with loads of time
could
sift through OSLIST archives to figure this culture
out. The
hard way.
However, like the SPIRIT book teaches, there is
nothing like a
good story to convey culture. The kind of story with a
beginning, a middle and an end.
I notice that, when you are the one referring to a
certain
OS-mythos story, you usually tend to include the short
list of
pertinent details, the essential details that provide
the
essential context, so the reader can follow along, and
engage.
And I'm always grateful for that, as it helps me to
follow
along, and get what you are referring to, and more
fully
understand the story, and feel oddly included in the
story.
Earlier, I express how not having the context tends to
(for
me) arouse feelings of: exclusion, cluelessness, and a
general
lack of membership in whatever
"historic-OS-mythos-episode" is
being referred to. Sort of an "out group" feeling. You
know?
Sometimes, I wonder what the poster might be thinking
by
posting random fragments of a "you had to be there"
kind of
story. Other times, I wonder if other readers are also
feeling
these feelings. Or if it is "just me."
And so: I am very grateful for your stories, in part
because
you include the pertinent details, and in so doing,
make me
(for one) feel included.
So thanks for including the context in your stories.
It makes
them fun, and easy to follow. OSLIST culture certainly
has
it's quirks, and for me, your stories make this
culture easier
to figure out, and navigate, and enjoy.
Getting back to the Tyranny of Structurelessness:
Do you think these 3 assertions by the author are
actually
true? Do these ideas have legs?
* /This hegemony can be so easily established
because the
idea of "structurelessness" does not prevent the
formation
of informal structures, only formal ones./
* /For everyone to have the opportunity to be
involved in a
given group and to participate in its activities,
the
structure must be explicit, not implicit. /
* /It is this informal structure, particularly in
Unstructured groups, which forms the basis for
elites./
Daniel
On 10/6/15 10:04 AM, Harrison Owen wrote:
Dan, Google can often help.
<https://www.google.com/#q=ralph+copleman>https://www.google.com/#q=ralph+copleman
ho
*From:*OSList
[mailto:oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org]
*On Behalf Of *Daniel Mezick via OSList
*Sent:* Monday, October 05, 2015 4:51 PM
*To:* Harrison Owen; World wide Open Space
Technology email list
*Subject:* Re: [OSList] The Tyranny of
Structurelessness
Howdy Harrison,
Thanks for describing the context of the Ralph
Copleman
story- I'm very thankful for that info.
I notice that, lots of times here, there are
references made
to notable OST episodes, and situations from times
past...
...the "OST-mythos" as it were.
These mythical stories often have me wondering what
I missed,
and what I might now be missing. (Being clueless as
I am.)
I'm sure these story-fragment postings are not
posted with
intent to exclude anyone, or to be discourteous, or
unkind.
More like: some good old basic camaraderie is taking
place
between some old friends.
Still: Do these "inside-story-fragments" on OSLIST
tend to
evoke feelings of exclusion in readers who were
/not/ there
at the time?
Not sure.
<CONFESSION>
As for me, personally, I sometimes find myself
experiencing
curiously odd feelings of exclusion, when a
told-fragment of
an old OST-mythos story lacks explicit context. So I
can
follow the story, you know? The terms "outsider" or
"clueless" or "not in the story" describe these
feelings
fairly well. "Not invited?"
I sometimes wonder if some of the hundreds of
/other/ members
of OSLIST ever feel this way...or if it is "just
me."
</CONFESSION>
Daniel
On 10/4/15 2:59 PM, Harrison Owen via OSList wrote:
“Everythingis moving.† .... Michael -- I
remember
that moment verywell. And Dan, I’m not sure
the
context, etc, would helpvery much. But just for
the
record the odd phrase popped out at one of the
International Symposia on Organization
Transformation
which happened to be taking place at a small
college
south of Seattle. I have no idea why Ralph said
what he
did, and I’m not sure Ralph did either. But
then againa
lot of marvelous stuff seems to burst out with
no obvious
logic train. Indeed it may be that the lack of
logic
train enables the thought?
Â
Whatever the genesis, the phrase wandered about
my head
for some time, quite unattached, and it also
happened
that I was working my way slowly through one of
the
masterpieces of 20^th century western philosophy
when a
fuzzy connection began to form. The work was
that of
Alfred North Whitehead, and the title:
“Process and
Reality.†I’ve been through thebook probably
4-5
times, and I am frank to confess that I don’t
think I
really understandit. But then again
I’veheard a
number of people with much greater credentials,
tenure,
etc – say the same thing. But I did get that
ithad
something to do with, “Everything is moving.â€
Andthe
more I thought and read, the more I felt that
the good
philosopher had made a small mistake on his
title. It
shouldn’t be “Process/and/ Reality,†but
rather“Process*is* Reality.â€
Â
Now, Anna Caroline we come to “structure,†or
perhaps
Ishould say the fallacy of Structure? Yes I know
–
we’ve all been taught that structure is the
precursor,
the “determinator†of everything. My face
looks as it
doesbecause of my bone structure. My life
proceeds the
way it does because of my social structure. My
business
works as it does because of the organizational
structure.
And of course, meetings happen the way they do
because of
meeting structure, which apparently is the prime
domain
of “facilitators.†And even if we hadn’t
been“taught†all this, the primacy of
structure would
appearto be blatantly obvious – as plain as
the nose on
yourface.
Â
Unfortunately, it does seem to turn out that
sometimes
the blatantly obvious is not necessarily so. For
example
just looking at things it is pretty clear that
the world
is flat, or at the least bumpy flat. And any
fool can see
that we are the center of it all – Sun, moon,
and stars
whiz around us. But when we think about it, as
we have
been doing for the last 500-600 years, the
obvious
isn’t so obvious.
Â
It is reasonable to ask what would start to make
us think
differently – to the point that we begin to
question
theobvious, and even come to see things in a
different
way? Taking a leap, I will suggest that it all
begins
with the perception of anomaly. Things just
don’t make
sense. Our eyes tell us one thing... but???? And
then we
start making up stories to explain the
apparently
unexplainable. We imagine different ways of
looking at
things so that the nonsensical makes sense. Some
of those
stories get pretty strange, but if they actually
work –
that is to say, helpus to see in new and useful
ways –
that’s great!
Â
There is, of course, a proper term for the
activity I
have been describing. It is called Theory
Building. And
for whatever it is worth, “theory†comes from
the
Greek “/theoreinâ//€ /– to see. In a word,
theories
are ways of looking atthings – likely stories
you might
say.
Â
Now, at long last (too long?) we come to the odd
story I
was starting to tell, to the effect that
Structure is
only a figment of our imagination, a flash frame
of a
moment gone by. Interesting, and helpful under
some
circumstances... but always partial and in a
sense
illusory. What’s“really†happening is all
flow.
Everything is moving –That’s Ralph’s
story, and I
guess it is mine too.
Â
So how did I get to such a weird condition? It
was all
about anomaly – more particularly, the anomaly
of Open
Space.Everything that I had ever learned told me
that it
could not work. Unfortunately it did (work) –
and not
just once, butevery time, hundreds of thousands
of times.
Something was definitely weird. It seemed to me
that I
had to re-consider all those things I thought I
had
learned, beginning with the basics... such
things as
Structure.
Â
Common sense would say that Open Space works
because we
somehow created a structure that enabled it to
work.
That’s theway things get done, or so I had
been taught.
But that’snot the way things happened in Open
Space.
Structure emerged along the way and only
momentarily.
Worse yet it (structure) seemed to have little
to do with
the obvious power, connections, creativity....
all of
which created structures, and passed them by.
And
actually it always seemed to me that the
“structuresâ€
I “saw†existed only because Iwanted to see
them –
or perhaps that I “should†seethem. But they
were only
momentary wisps, figments – neverto be
mistaken for
what was really going on. Or so I’vebeen
thinking.
Â
Harrison
Â
Â
Â
Â
Â
Â
*From:*OSList
[mailto:oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org]
*On
Behalf Of *Michael Herman via OSList
*Sent:* Saturday, October 03, 2015 6:31 PM
*To:* JL Walker; World wide Open Space
Technology email list
*Subject:* Re: [OSList] The Tyranny of
Structurelessness
Â
you remind me, harrison, of one morning news
session
years ago, somewhere, probably OT... where ralph
copleman
walked to the center of the circle and
announced, all
serious and mischievous at the same time, "it's
all
moving!" Â
Â
then put the stick down and went back to his
seat.Â
Â
--
Michael Herman
Michael Herman Associates
http://MichaelHerman.com
http://OpenSpaceWorld.org
Â
On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 1:47 PM, JL Walker via
OSList
<oslist at lists.openspacetech.org
<mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>> wrote:
I was thinking that maybe the antidote to the
eventual
tyranny of structurelessness is to open space,
again and
again, until true democracy can emerge.
Â
Juan Luis
Â
*De:*OSList
[mailto:oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org
<mailto:oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org>] *En
nombre de *Rosa Zubizarreta via OSList
*Enviado el:* sábado, 03 de octubre de 2015
12:19
*Para:* Daniel Mezick; World wide Open Space
Technology
email list
*Asunto:* Re: [OSList] The Tyranny of
Structurelessness
Â
Hi Daniel,
Yes, this is a key piece... I see it as very
similar in
some ways to what Ken Wilber wrote later,
about the "shadow side of the green meme". (Each
meme has
its own shadow, as well as its own gift...)
So, I love "green". I love circles, I love
non-hierarchy,
etc.
And, part of the "shadow side of the green meme"
is how
ideologically anti-structure it can become...
to the point where some people may not even
agree that
OST does, in fact, offer a very simple and
effective
structure.
By way contrast, think of a situation where
group of
people (who don't know about OST, and/or, who
are having
a power struggle around "which process to use",
and/or.... ) might easily spending a whole
weekend
arguing /about /"how to self-organize
ourselves"... with
a great deal more pain and frustration and a
great deal
less value.
whereas, instead, IF someone knows about OST,
and, a
clear invitation has been extended, and, there
is enough
trust/suspension of disbelief so that
participants are
willing to enter into that format,
then, we end up with a very simple and elegant
structure
that allows people to self-organize
beautifully....
at least that's how i see it! :-)
with all best wishes,
Rosa
Â
*/Rosa Zubizarreta/*
/Developing Participatory and Co-intelligent
Leadership
Author of *From Conflict to Creative
Collaboration*
<http://www.conflict2creativity.com>/
/For more resources and learning opportunities,
visit
*<http://www.DiaPraxis.com>www.DiaPraxis.com
<http://www.DiaPraxis.com>*/
Â
On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 9:26 AM, Daniel Mezick
via OSList
<oslist at lists.openspacetech.org
<mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>> wrote:
THE TYRANNY of STRUCTURELESSNESS
by Jo Freeman aka Joreen
I find this essay extremely interesting. I hope
you do, too.
Here is a pertinent quote, from the essay:
".../the idea of "structurelessness" does not
prevent the
formation of informal structures, only formal
ones."
/
Circa 1970. Context: the women's movement. Quick
summary
of the main points: from the essay...
ï‚·/During the years in which the women's
liberation
movement has been taking shape, a great emphasis
has been
placed on what are called leaderless,
structureless
groups as the main -- if not sole --
organizational form
of the movement. /
ï‚·/The idea of "structurelessness," however,
has moved
from a healthy counter to those tendencies, to
becoming a
goddess in its own right./
ï‚·/Contrary to what we would like to believe,
there is
no such thing as a structureless group. /
ï‚·/This means that to strive for a
structureless group
is as useful, and as deceptive, as to aim at an
"objective" news story, "value-free" social
science, or a
"free" economy. A "laissez faire" group is about
as
realistic as a "laissez faire" society; the idea
becomes
a smokescreen for the strong or the lucky to
establish
unquestioned hegemony over others. /
ï‚·/This hegemony can be so easily established
because
the idea of "structurelessness" does not prevent
the
formation of informal structures, only formal
ones. /
ï‚·/For everyone to have the opportunity to be
involved
in a given group and to participate in its
activities,
the structure must be explicit, not implicit. /
ï‚·/It is this informal structure, particularly
in
Unstructured groups, which forms the basis for
elites./
Just in case you have not yet encountered the
full text
of this essay, here it is:
THE TYRANNY of STRUCTURELESSNESS
by Jo Freeman aka Joreen
http://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm
Regards,
Daniel
http://www.OpenSpaceAgility.com/about
http://www.DanielMezick.com
203 915 7248 <tel:203%20915%207248>
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and
Coaching.
<http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-coaching/>
Explore the Agile Boston
<http://newtechusa.net//user-groups/ma/>Community.
--
--
Michael Herman
Michael Herman Associates
http://MichaelHerman.com
http://OpenSpaceWorld.org
--
Daniel Mezick, President
New Technology Solutions Inc.
(203) 915 7248 <tel:%28203%29%20915%207248> (cell)
Bio <http://newtechusa.net/dan-mezick/>. Blog
<http://newtechusa.net/blog/>. Twitter
<http://twitter.com/#%21/danmezick/>.
Examine my new book:The Culture Game
<http://newtechusa.net/about/the-culture-game-book/>:
Tools for the
Agile Manager.
Explore Agile Team Training
<http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-training/>
and Coaching.
<http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-coaching/>
Explore the Agile Boston
<http://newtechusa.net//user-groups/ma/>Community.
_______________________________________________
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--
Daniel Mezick, President
New Technology Solutions Inc.
(203) 915 7248 (cell)
Bio. Blog. Twitter.
Examine my new book: The Culture Game : Tools for the Agile Manager.
Explore Agile Team Training and Coaching.
Explore the Agile
Boston Community.
_______________________________________________
OSList mailing list
To post send emails to OSList at lists.openspacetech.org
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