[OSList] The Tyranny of Structurelessness

[paul levy via OSList]

Is this list a tyranny of structurelessness?

On 6 October 2015 at 16:56, Michael Herman via OSList <
oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:

> Yes and Daniel, there are the words of a story and the feeling/meaning of
> it. I considered writing a longer message in the telling of this story, but
> I wanted to transmit as much of the spirit/experience of it as I could.
>
> Ralph didn't offer any explanation of his observation that morning. He did
> just like I said, got up in a morning news circle, it was an OTgathering as
> I noted but that doesn't matter, it was open space and morning news. He
> said his piece and sat down. The experience for me, and others I have
> learned only later, was stunning and disorienting, for sure.
>
> I thought to honor and convey this experience through some measure of
> similar brevity in my retelling. Maybe this is what you picked up on. The
> disorienting magic of Ralph's moment.
>
> There are moments in open space of surprise and disconnect, maybe
> frustration or confusion or misunderstanding or disorientation and even
> disappointment that arise in open space. This we all know and have
> experienced. This, to me, is not so much a thing to be solved but the
> nature of the territory. It just is.
>
> Ralph never did explain his statement, as far as I know. He had something
> to say and he said it. That was his only job. After that, each of us had to
> figure out for ourselves what, if anything, to do with his story, to decide
> if it was wisdom or wisecrack. The storyteller, I think, has only the
> responsibility for finding and sharing what's true for him/her.  The rest
> is up to us.
>
> Maybe this points to the learning and challenge that we all have in open
> space, namely learning to trust more and more that we already are always
> included in a flow that is bigger and deeper or whatever than we can see or
> understand or articulate sometimes. Exclusion is the illusion. A little bit
> of errant and temporary mental structure. Discomfort is not a problem (and
> can't be solved by anyone!); it's a trail marker.  Which is to say about
> exclusion and missing out, "welcome!"  The good news is, and the bad news
> is, you're in!  And, it's all still happening Now.
>
> As I scroll up to send tha now, I notice the word tyranny again in the
> subject. Is it not some kind of tyranny we all attempt over and over again
> when we expect and insist that the world explain itself to/for us?  Is this
> not something of our central challenge, something all of us work with?  The
> edge of open space is an end of comfortable, conventional understanding?
> Or something?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, October 6, 2015, Daniel Mezick via OSList <
> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi Harrison,
>>
>> Thanks for the tips on how to search OSLIST and Google, etc. I did do
>> those things actually. However, that's a bit of an effort, especially
>> searching the OSLIST archives. I guess I could eventually pick up OSLIST
>> culture that way, little by little. I suppose an earnest person with loads
>> of time could sift through OSLIST archives to figure this culture out. The
>> hard way.
>>
>> However, like the SPIRIT book teaches, there is nothing like a good story
>> to convey culture. The kind of story with a beginning, a middle and an end.
>>
>> I notice that, when you are the one referring to a certain OS-mythos
>> story, you usually tend to include the short list of pertinent details, the
>> essential details that provide the essential context, so the reader can
>> follow along, and engage.
>>
>> And I'm always grateful for that, as it helps me to follow along, and get
>> what you are referring to, and more fully understand the story, and feel
>> oddly included in the story.
>>
>>
>> Earlier, I express how not having the context tends to (for me) arouse
>> feelings of: exclusion, cluelessness, and a general lack of membership in
>> whatever "historic-OS-mythos-episode" is being referred to. Sort of an "out
>> group" feeling. You know? Sometimes, I wonder what the poster might be
>> thinking by posting random fragments of a "you had to be there" kind of
>> story. Other times, I wonder if other readers are also feeling these
>> feelings. Or if it is "just me."
>>
>> And so: I am very grateful for your stories, in part because you include
>> the pertinent details, and in so doing, make me (for one) feel included.
>>
>> So thanks for including the context in your stories. It makes them fun,
>> and easy to follow. OSLIST culture certainly has it's quirks, and for me,
>> your stories make this culture easier to figure out, and navigate, and
>> enjoy.
>>
>>
>> Getting back to the Tyranny of Structurelessness:
>>
>> Do you think these 3 assertions by the author are actually true? Do these
>> ideas have legs?
>>
>>    - *This hegemony can be so easily established because the idea of
>>    "structurelessness" does not prevent the formation of informal structures,
>>    only formal ones.*
>>    - *For everyone to have the opportunity to be involved in a given
>>    group and to participate in its activities, the structure must be explicit,
>>    not implicit. *
>>    - *It is this informal structure, particularly in Unstructured
>>    groups, which forms the basis for elites.*
>>
>>
>> Daniel
>>
>> On 10/6/15 10:04 AM, Harrison Owen wrote:
>>
>> Dan, Google can often help. https://www.google.com/#q=ralph+copleman
>>
>>
>>
>> ho
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* OSList [mailto:oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org] *On
>> Behalf Of *Daniel Mezick via OSList
>> *Sent:* Monday, October 05, 2015 4:51 PM
>> *To:* Harrison Owen; World wide Open Space Technology email list
>> *Subject:* Re: [OSList] The Tyranny of Structurelessness
>>
>>
>>
>> Howdy Harrison,
>>
>> Thanks for describing the context of the Ralph Copleman story- I'm very
>> thankful for that info.
>>
>> I notice that, lots of times here, there are references made to notable
>> OST episodes, and situations from times past...
>>
>> ...the "OST-mythos" as it were.
>>
>> These mythical stories often have me wondering what I missed, and what I
>> might now be missing. (Being clueless as I am.)
>>
>> I'm sure these story-fragment postings are not posted with intent to
>> exclude anyone, or to be discourteous, or unkind. More like: some good old
>> basic camaraderie is taking place between some old friends.
>>
>> Still: Do these "inside-story-fragments" on OSLIST tend to evoke feelings
>> of exclusion in readers who were *not* there at the time?
>>
>> Not sure.
>>
>> <CONFESSION>
>>
>> As for me, personally, I sometimes find myself experiencing curiously odd
>> feelings of exclusion, when a told-fragment of an old OST-mythos story
>> lacks explicit context. So I can follow the story, you know? The terms
>> "outsider" or "clueless" or  "not in the story" describe these feelings
>> fairly well. "Not invited?"
>>
>> I sometimes wonder if some of the hundreds of *other* members of OSLIST
>> ever feel this way...or if it is "just me."
>>
>> </CONFESSION>
>>
>> Daniel
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10/4/15 2:59 PM, Harrison Owen via OSList wrote:
>>
>> “Everything is moving.†  .... Michael -- I remember that moment very
>> well. And Dan, I’m not sure the context, etc, would help very much.
>> But just for the record the odd phrase popped out at one of the
>> International Symposia on Organization Transformation which happened to be
>> taking place at a small college south of Seattle. I have no idea why Ralph
>> said what he did, and I’m not sure Ralph did either. But then again a
>> lot of marvelous stuff seems to burst out with no obvious logic train.
>> Indeed it may be that the lack of logic train enables the thought?
>>
>> Â
>>
>> Whatever the genesis, the phrase wandered about my head for some time,
>> quite unattached, and it also happened that I was working my way slowly
>> through one of the masterpieces of 20th century western philosophy when
>> a fuzzy connection began to form. The work was that of Alfred North
>> Whitehead, and the title: “Process and Reality.†I’ve been through
>> the book probably 4-5 times, and I am frank to confess that I don’t
>> think I really understand it. But then again I’ve heard  a number of
>> people with much greater credentials, tenure, etc – say the same
>> thing. But I did get that it had something to do with, “Everything is
>> moving.†And the more I thought and read, the more I felt that the good
>> philosopher had made a small mistake on his title. It shouldn’t be
>> “Process *and* Reality,†but rather “Process *is* Reality.â€
>>
>> Â
>>
>> Now, Anna Caroline we come to “structure,†or perhaps I should say
>> the fallacy of Structure? Yes I know – we’ve all been taught that
>> structure is the precursor, the “determinator†of everything. My face
>> looks as it does because of my bone structure. My life proceeds the way
>> it does because of my social structure. My business works as it does
>> because of the organizational structure. And of course, meetings happen the
>> way they do because of meeting structure, which apparently is the prime
>> domain of “facilitators.†And even if we hadn’t been “taughtâ€
>> all this, the primacy of structure would appear to be blatantly obvious –
>> as plain as the nose on your face.
>>
>> Â
>>
>> Unfortunately, it does seem to turn out that sometimes the blatantly
>> obvious is not necessarily so. For example just looking at things it is
>> pretty clear that the world is flat, or at the least bumpy flat. And any
>> fool can see that we are the center of it all – Sun, moon, and stars
>> whiz around us.  But when we think about it, as we have been doing for
>> the last 500-600 years, the obvious isn’t so obvious.
>>
>> Â
>>
>> It is reasonable to ask what would start to make us think differently –
>> to the point that we begin to question the obvious, and even come to see
>> things in a different way? Taking a leap, I will suggest that it all begins
>> with the perception of anomaly. Things just don’t make sense. Our eyes
>> tell us one thing... but???? And then we start making up stories to explain
>> the apparently unexplainable. We imagine different ways of looking at
>> things so that the nonsensical makes sense. Some of those stories get
>> pretty strange, but if they actually work – that is to say, help us to
>> see in new and useful ways – that’s great!
>>
>> Â
>>
>> There is, of course, a proper term for the activity I have been
>> describing. It is called Theory Building. And for whatever it is worth, “theoryâ€
>> comes from the Greek “*theoreinâ**€ * – to see. In a word, theories
>> are ways of looking at things – likely stories you might say.
>>
>> Â
>>
>> Now, at long last (too long?) we come to the odd story I was starting to
>> tell, to the effect that Structure is only a figment of our imagination, a
>> flash frame of a moment gone by. Interesting, and helpful under some
>> circumstances... but always partial and in a sense illusory. What’s “reallyâ€
>> happening is all flow. Everything is moving – That’s Ralph’s
>> story, and I guess it is mine too.
>>
>> Â
>>
>> So how did I get to such a weird condition? It was all about anomaly –
>> more particularly, the anomaly of Open Space. Everything that I had ever
>> learned told me that it could not work. Unfortunately it did (work) –
>> and not just once, but every time, hundreds of thousands of times.
>> Something was definitely weird. It seemed to me that I had to re-consider
>> all those things I thought I had learned, beginning with the basics... such
>> things as Structure.
>>
>> Â
>>
>> Common sense would say that Open Space works because we somehow created a
>> structure that enabled it to work. That’s the way things get done, or
>> so I had been taught. But that’s not the way things happened in Open
>> Space. Structure emerged along the way and only momentarily. Worse yet it
>> (structure) seemed to have little to do with the obvious power,
>> connections, creativity.... all of which created structures, and passed
>> them by. And actually it always seemed to me that the “structures†I
>> “saw†existed only because I wanted to see them – or perhaps that I
>> “should†see them. But they were only momentary wisps, figments –
>> never to be mistaken for what was really going on. Or so I’ve been
>> thinking.
>>
>> Â
>>
>> Harrison
>>
>> Â
>>
>> Â
>>
>> Â
>>
>> Â
>>
>> Â
>>
>> Â
>>
>> *From:* OSList [mailto:oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org] *On
>> Behalf Of *Michael Herman via OSList
>> *Sent:* Saturday, October 03, 2015 6:31 PM
>> *To:* JL Walker; World wide Open Space Technology email list
>> *Subject:* Re: [OSList] The Tyranny of Structurelessness
>>
>> Â
>>
>> you remind me, harrison, of one morning news session years ago,
>> somewhere, probably OT... where ralph copleman walked to the center of the
>> circle and announced, all serious and mischievous at the same time, "it's
>> all moving!" Â
>>
>> Â
>>
>> then put the stick down and went back to his seat.Â
>>
>>
>> Â
>> --
>>
>> Michael Herman
>> Michael Herman Associates
>> http://MichaelHerman.com
>> http://OpenSpaceWorld.org
>>
>> Â
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 1:47 PM, JL Walker via OSList <
>> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>>
>> I was thinking that maybe the antidote to the eventual tyranny of
>> structurelessness is to open space, again and again, until true democracy
>> can emerge.
>>
>> Â
>>
>> Juan Luis
>>
>> Â
>>
>> *De:* OSList [mailto:oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org] *En nombre
>> de *Rosa Zubizarreta via OSList
>> *Enviado el:* sábado, 03 de octubre de 2015 12:19
>> *Para:* Daniel Mezick; World wide Open Space Technology email list
>> *Asunto:* Re: [OSList] The Tyranny of Structurelessness
>>
>> Â
>>
>> Hi Daniel,
>>
>> Yes, this is a key piece... I see it as very similar in some ways to what
>> Ken Wilber wrote later,
>>
>> about the "shadow side of the green meme". (Each meme has its own shadow,
>> as well as its own gift...)
>>
>> So, I love "green". I love circles, I love non-hierarchy, etc.
>> And, part of the "shadow side of the green meme" is how ideologically
>> anti-structure it can become...
>>
>> to the point where some people may not even agree that OST does, in fact,
>> offer a very simple and effective structure.
>>
>> By way contrast, think of a situation where group of people (who don't
>> know about OST, and/or, who are having a power struggle around "which
>> process to use", and/or....  ) might easily spending a whole weekend
>> arguing *about *"how to self-organize ourselves"... with a great deal
>> more pain and frustration and a great deal less value.
>>
>> whereas, instead, IF someone knows about OST, and, a clear invitation has
>> been extended, and, there is enough trust/suspension of disbelief so that
>> participants are willing to enter into that format,
>>
>> then, we end up with a very simple and elegant structure that allows
>> people to self-organize beautifully....
>>
>> at least that's how i see it! :-)
>>
>> with all best wishes,
>>
>> Rosa
>>
>> Â
>>
>>
>> *Rosa Zubizarreta*
>>
>>
>> *Developing Participatory and Co-intelligent Leadership Author of From
>> Conflict to Creative Collaboration <http://www.conflict2creativity.com>*
>>
>>
>> *For more resources and learning opportunities, visit www.DiaPraxis.com
>> <http://www.DiaPraxis.com>*
>>
>> Â
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 9:26 AM, Daniel Mezick via OSList <
>> oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:
>>
>> THE TYRANNY of STRUCTURELESSNESS
>> by Jo Freeman aka Joreen
>>
>> I find this essay extremely interesting. I hope you do, too.
>>
>>
>>
>> Here is a pertinent quote, from the essay:
>> "...
>>
>> *the idea of "structurelessness" does not prevent the formation of
>> informal structures, only formal ones." *
>> Circa 1970. Context: the women's movement. Quick summary of the main
>> points: from the essay...
>>
>> ï‚·  *During the years in which the women's liberation movement has been
>> taking shape, a great emphasis has been placed on what are called
>> leaderless, structureless groups as the main -- if not sole --
>> organizational form of the movement. *
>>
>> ï‚·  *The idea of "structurelessness," however, has moved from a healthy
>> counter to those tendencies, to becoming a goddess in its own right.*
>>
>> ï‚·  *Contrary to what we would like to believe, there is no such thing
>> as a structureless group. *
>>
>> ï‚·  *This means that to strive for a structureless group is as useful,
>> and as deceptive, as to aim at an "objective" news story, "value-free"
>> social science, or a "free" economy. A "laissez faire" group is about as
>> realistic as a "laissez faire" society; the idea becomes a smokescreen for
>> the strong or the lucky to establish unquestioned hegemony over others. *
>>
>> ï‚·  *This hegemony can be so easily established because the idea of
>> "structurelessness" does not prevent the formation of informal structures,
>> only formal ones. *
>>
>> ï‚·  *For everyone to have the opportunity to be involved in a given
>> group and to participate in its activities, the structure must be explicit,
>> not implicit. *
>>
>> ï‚·  *It is this informal structure, particularly in Unstructured
>> groups, which forms the basis for elites.*
>>
>>
>>
>> Just in case you have not yet encountered the full text of this essay,
>> here it is:
>>
>> THE TYRANNY of STRUCTURELESSNESS
>> by Jo Freeman aka Joreen
>> http://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Daniel
>> http://www.OpenSpaceAgility.com/about
>> http://www.DanielMezick.com
>> 203 915 7248
>>
>>
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>>
>> --
>>
>> Daniel Mezick, President
>>
>> New Technology Solutions Inc.
>>
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>> Daniel Mezick, President
>>
>> New Technology Solutions Inc.
>>
>> (203) 915 7248 (cell)
>>
>> Bio <http://newtechusa.net/dan-mezick/>. Blog
>> <http://newtechusa.net/blog/>. Twitter
>> <http://twitter.com/#%21/danmezick/>.
>>
>> Examine my new book:  The Culture Game
>> <http://newtechusa.net/about/the-culture-game-book/>: Tools for the
>> Agile Manager.
>>
>> Explore Agile Team Training
>> <http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-training/> and Coaching.
>> <http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-coaching/>
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>> Explore the Agile Boston <http://newtechusa.net//user-groups/ma/>
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>
>
> --
>
> --
>
> Michael Herman
> Michael Herman Associates
> http://MichaelHerman.com
> http://OpenSpaceWorld.org
>
>
>
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