[OSList] The Tyranny of Structurelessness

[Daniel Mezick via OSList]

Hi Harrison,

Thanks for the tips on how to search OSLIST and Google, etc. I did do 
those things actually. However, that's a bit of an effort, especially 
searching the OSLIST archives. I guess I could eventually pick up OSLIST 
culture that way, little by little. I suppose an earnest person with 
loads of time could sift through OSLIST archives to figure this culture 
out. The hard way.

However, like the SPIRIT book teaches, there is nothing like a good 
story to convey culture. The kind of story with a beginning, a middle 
and an end.

I notice that, when you are the one referring to a certain OS-mythos 
story, you usually tend to include the short list of pertinent details, 
the essential details that provide the essential context, so the reader 
can follow along, and engage.

And I'm always grateful for that, as it helps me to follow along, and 
get what you are referring to, and more fully understand the story, and 
feel oddly included in the story.


Earlier, I express how not having the context tends to (for me) arouse 
feelings of: exclusion, cluelessness, and a general lack of membership 
in whatever "historic-OS-mythos-episode" is being referred to. Sort of 
an "out group" feeling. You know? Sometimes, I wonder what the poster 
might be thinking by posting random fragments of a "you had to be there" 
kind of story. Other times, I wonder if other readers are also feeling 
these feelings. Or if it is "just me."

And so: I am very grateful for your stories, in part because you include 
the pertinent details, and in so doing, make me (for one) feel included.

So thanks for including the context in your stories. It makes them fun, 
and easy to follow. OSLIST culture certainly has it's quirks, and for 
me, your stories make this culture easier to figure out, and navigate, 
and enjoy.


Getting back to the Tyranny of Structurelessness:

Do you think these 3 assertions by the author are actually true? Do 
these ideas have legs?

  * /This hegemony can be so easily established because the idea of
    "structurelessness" does not prevent the formation of informal
    structures, only formal ones./
  * /For everyone to have the opportunity to be involved in a given
    group and to participate in its activities, the structure must be
    explicit, not implicit. /
  * /It is this informal structure, particularly in Unstructured groups,
    which forms the basis for elites./


Daniel

On 10/6/15 10:04 AM, Harrison Owen wrote:
>
> Dan, Google can often help. https://www.google.com/#q=ralph+copleman
>
> ho
>
> *From:*OSList [mailto:oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org] *On 
> Behalf Of *Daniel Mezick via OSList
> *Sent:* Monday, October 05, 2015 4:51 PM
> *To:* Harrison Owen; World wide Open Space Technology email list
> *Subject:* Re: [OSList] The Tyranny of Structurelessness
>
> Howdy Harrison,
>
> Thanks for describing the context of the Ralph Copleman story- I'm 
> very thankful for that info.
>
> I notice that, lots of times here, there are references made to 
> notable OST episodes, and situations from times past...
>
> ...the "OST-mythos" as it were.
>
> These mythical stories often have me wondering what I missed, and what 
> I might now be missing. (Being clueless as I am.)
>
> I'm sure these story-fragment postings are not posted with intent to 
> exclude anyone, or to be discourteous, or unkind. More like: some good 
> old basic camaraderie is taking place between some old friends.
>
> Still: Do these "inside-story-fragments" on OSLIST tend to evoke 
> feelings of exclusion in readers who were /not/ there at the time?
>
> Not sure.
>
> <CONFESSION>
>
> As for me, personally, I sometimes find myself experiencing curiously 
> odd feelings of exclusion, when a told-fragment of an old OST-mythos 
> story lacks explicit context. So I can follow the story, you know? The 
> terms "outsider" or "clueless" or  "not in the story" describe these 
> feelings fairly well. "Not invited?"
>
> I sometimes wonder if some of the hundreds of /other/ members of 
> OSLIST ever feel this way...or if it is "just me."
>
> </CONFESSION>
>
> Daniel
>
>
>
> On 10/4/15 2:59 PM, Harrison Owen via OSList wrote:
>
>     “Everythingis moving.” .... Michael -- I remember that moment
>     verywell. And Dan, I’m not sure the context, etc, would helpvery
>     much. But just for the record the odd phrase popped out at one of
>     the International Symposia on Organization Transformation which
>     happened to be taking place at a small college south of Seattle. I
>     have no idea why Ralph said what he did, and I’m not sure Ralph
>     did either. But then againa lot of marvelous stuff seems to burst
>     out with no obvious logic train. Indeed it may be that the lack of
>     logic train enables the thought?
>
>     Â
>
>     Whatever the genesis, the phrase wandered about my head for some
>     time, quite unattached, and it also happened that I was working my
>     way slowly through one of the masterpieces of 20^th century
>     western philosophy when a fuzzy connection began to form. The work
>     was that of Alfred North Whitehead, and the title: “Process
>     and Reality.” I’ve been through thebook probably 4-5 times,
>     and I am frank to confess that I don’t think I really
>     understandit. But then again I’veheard  a number of people with
>     much greater credentials, tenure, etc – say the same thing. But
>     I did get that ithad something to do with, “Everything is
>     moving.” Andthe more I thought and read, the more I felt that
>     the good philosopher had made a small mistake on his title. It
>     shouldn’t be “Process/and/ Reality,” but
>     rather“Process*is* Reality.”
>
>     Â
>
>     Now, Anna Caroline we come to “structure,” or perhaps Ishould
>     say the fallacy of Structure? Yes I know – we’ve all been
>     taught that structure is the precursor, the “determinator” of
>     everything. My face looks as it doesbecause of my bone structure.
>     My life proceeds the way it does because of my social structure.
>     My business works as it does because of the organizational
>     structure. And of course, meetings happen the way they do because
>     of meeting structure, which apparently is the prime domain
>     of “facilitators.” And even if we hadn’t been“taught”
>     all this, the primacy of structure would appearto be blatantly
>     obvious – as plain as the nose on yourface.
>
>     Â
>
>     Unfortunately, it does seem to turn out that sometimes the
>     blatantly obvious is not necessarily so. For example just looking
>     at things it is pretty clear that the world is flat, or at the
>     least bumpy flat. And any fool can see that we are the center of
>     it all – Sun, moon, and stars whiz around us. But when we think
>     about it, as we have been doing for the last 500-600 years, the
>     obvious isn’t so obvious.
>
>     Â
>
>     It is reasonable to ask what would start to make us think
>     differently – to the point that we begin to question theobvious,
>     and even come to see things in a different way? Taking a leap, I
>     will suggest that it all begins with the perception of anomaly.
>     Things just don’t make sense. Our eyes tell us one thing...
>     but???? And then we start making up stories to explain the
>     apparently unexplainable. We imagine different ways of looking at
>     things so that the nonsensical makes sense. Some of those stories
>     get pretty strange, but if they actually work – that is to say,
>     helpus to see in new and useful ways – that’s great!
>
>     Â
>
>     There is, of course, a proper term for the activity I have been
>     describing. It is called Theory Building. And for whatever it is
>     worth, “theory” comes from the Greek “/theoreinâ//€/– to
>     see. In a word, theories are ways of looking atthings – likely
>     stories you might say.
>
>     Â
>
>     Now, at long last (too long?) we come to the odd story I was
>     starting to tell, to the effect that Structure is only a figment
>     of our imagination, a flash frame of a moment gone by.
>     Interesting, and helpful under some circumstances... but always
>     partial and in a sense illusory. What’s“really” happening is
>     all flow. Everything is moving –That’s Ralph’s story, and I
>     guess it is mine too.
>
>     Â
>
>     So how did I get to such a weird condition? It was all about
>     anomaly – more particularly, the anomaly of Open
>     Space.Everything that I had ever learned told me that it could not
>     work. Unfortunately it did (work) – and not just once, butevery
>     time, hundreds of thousands of times. Something was definitely
>     weird. It seemed to me that I had to re-consider all those things
>     I thought I had learned, beginning with the basics... such things
>     as Structure.
>
>     Â
>
>     Common sense would say that Open Space works because we somehow
>     created a structure that enabled it to work. That’s theway
>     things get done, or so I had been taught. But that’snot the way
>     things happened in Open Space. Structure emerged along the way and
>     only momentarily. Worse yet it (structure) seemed to have little
>     to do with the obvious power, connections, creativity.... all of
>     which created structures, and passed them by. And actually it
>     always seemed to me that the “structures” I “saw” existed
>     only because Iwanted to see them – or perhaps that I
>     “should” seethem. But they were only momentary wisps,
>     figments – neverto be mistaken for what was really going on. Or
>     so I’vebeen thinking.
>
>     Â
>
>     Harrison
>
>     Â
>
>     Â
>
>     Â
>
>     Â
>
>     Â
>
>     Â
>
>     *From:*OSList [mailto:oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org] *On
>     Behalf Of *Michael Herman via OSList
>     *Sent:* Saturday, October 03, 2015 6:31 PM
>     *To:* JL Walker; World wide Open Space Technology email list
>     *Subject:* Re: [OSList] The Tyranny of Structurelessness
>
>     Â
>
>     you remind me, harrison, of one morning news session years ago,
>     somewhere, probably OT... where ralph copleman walked to the
>     center of the circle and announced, all serious and mischievous at
>     the same time, "it's all moving!" Â
>
>     Â
>
>     then put the stick down and went back to his seat.Â
>
>
>     Â
>     --
>
>     Michael Herman
>     Michael Herman Associates
>     http://MichaelHerman.com
>     http://OpenSpaceWorld.org
>
>     Â
>
>     On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 1:47 PM, JL Walker via OSList
>     <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org
>     <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>> wrote:
>
>     I was thinking that maybe the antidote to the eventual tyranny of
>     structurelessness is to open space, again and again, until true
>     democracy can emerge.
>
>     Â
>
>     Juan Luis
>
>     Â
>
>     *De:*OSList [mailto:oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org
>     <mailto:oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org>] *En nombre de
>     *Rosa Zubizarreta via OSList
>     *Enviado el:* sábado, 03 de octubre de 2015 12:19
>     *Para:* Daniel Mezick; World wide Open Space Technology email list
>     *Asunto:* Re: [OSList] The Tyranny of Structurelessness
>
>     Â
>
>     Hi Daniel,
>
>     Yes, this is a key piece... I see it as very similar in some ways
>     to what Ken Wilber wrote later,
>
>     about the "shadow side of the green meme". (Each meme has its own
>     shadow, as well as its own gift...)
>
>     So, I love "green". I love circles, I love non-hierarchy, etc.
>     And, part of the "shadow side of the green meme" is how
>     ideologically anti-structure it can become...
>
>     to the point where some people may not even agree that OST does,
>     in fact, offer a very simple and effective structure.
>
>     By way contrast, think of a situation where group of people (who
>     don't know about OST, and/or, who are having a power struggle
>     around "which process to use", and/or....  ) might easily
>     spending a whole weekend arguing /about /"how to self-organize
>     ourselves"... with a great deal more pain and frustration and a
>     great deal less value.
>
>     whereas, instead, IF someone knows about OST, and, a clear
>     invitation has been extended, and, there is enough
>     trust/suspension of disbelief so that participants are willing to
>     enter into that format,
>
>     then, we end up with a very simple and elegant structure that
>     allows people to self-organize beautifully....
>
>     at least that's how i see it! :-)
>
>     with all best wishes,
>
>     Rosa
>
>     Â
>
>
>     */Rosa Zubizarreta/*
>
>     /Developing Participatory and Co-intelligent Leadership
>     Author of *From Conflict to Creative Collaboration*
>     <http://www.conflict2creativity.com>/
>
>     /For more resources and learning opportunities, visit
>     *www.DiaPraxis.com <http://www.DiaPraxis.com>*/
>
>     Â
>
>     On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 9:26 AM, Daniel Mezick via OSList
>     <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org
>     <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>> wrote:
>
>     THE TYRANNY of STRUCTURELESSNESS
>     by Jo Freeman aka Joreen
>
>     I find this essay extremely interesting. I hope you do, too.
>
>
>
>     Here is a pertinent quote, from the essay:
>     ".../the idea of "structurelessness" does not prevent the
>     formation of informal structures, only formal ones."
>
>     /
>     Circa 1970. Context: the women's movement. Quick summary of the
>     main points: from the essay...
>
>     ï‚·/During the years in which the women's liberation movement has
>     been taking shape, a great emphasis has been placed on what are
>     called leaderless, structureless groups as the main -- if not sole
>     -- organizational form of the movement. /
>
>     ï‚·/The idea of "structurelessness," however, has moved from a
>     healthy counter to those tendencies, to becoming a goddess in its
>     own right./
>
>     ï‚·/Contrary to what we would like to believe, there is no such
>     thing as a structureless group. /
>
>     ï‚·/This means that to strive for a structureless group is as
>     useful, and as deceptive, as to aim at an "objective" news story,
>     "value-free" social science, or a "free" economy. A "laissez
>     faire" group is about as realistic as a "laissez faire" society;
>     the idea becomes a smokescreen for the strong or the lucky to
>     establish unquestioned hegemony over others. /
>
>     ï‚·/This hegemony can be so easily established because the idea of
>     "structurelessness" does not prevent the formation of informal
>     structures, only formal ones. /
>
>     ï‚·/For everyone to have the opportunity to be involved in a given
>     group and to participate in its activities, the structure must be
>     explicit, not implicit. /
>
>     ï‚·/It is this informal structure, particularly in Unstructured
>     groups, which forms the basis for elites./
>
>
>
>     Just in case you have not yet encountered the full text of this
>     essay, here it is:
>
>     THE TYRANNY of STRUCTURELESSNESS
>     by Jo Freeman aka Joreen
>     http://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm
>
>
>
>     Regards,
>     Daniel
>     http://www.OpenSpaceAgility.com/about
>     http://www.DanielMezick.com
>     203 915 7248 <tel:203%20915%207248>
>
>
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> -- 
>
> Daniel Mezick, President
>
> New Technology Solutions Inc.
>
> (203) 915 7248 (cell)
>
> Bio <http://newtechusa.net/dan-mezick/>. Blog 
> <http://newtechusa.net/blog/>. Twitter 
> <http://twitter.com/#%21/danmezick/>.Â
>
> Examine my new book:Â The Culture Game 
> <http://newtechusa.net/about/the-culture-game-book/>: Tools for the 
> Agile Manager.
>
> Explore Agile Team Training 
> <http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-training/> and Coaching. 
> <http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-coaching/>
>
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> <http://newtechusa.net/user-groups/ma/>Community.Â
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-- 

Daniel Mezick, President

New Technology Solutions Inc.

(203) 915 7248 (cell)

Bio <http://newtechusa.net/dan-mezick/>. Blog 
<http://newtechusa.net/blog/>. Twitter <http://twitter.com/#%21/danmezick/>.

Examine my new book:The Culture Game 
<http://newtechusa.net/about/the-culture-game-book/>: Tools for the 
Agile Manager.

Explore Agile Team Training 
<http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-training/> and Coaching. 
<http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-coaching/>

Explore the Agile Boston <http://newtechusa.net//user-groups/ma/>Community.

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