[OSList] Zappos Being Zapped

paul levy via OSList oslist at lists.openspacetech.org
Mon Jul 20 07:49:10 PDT 2015 

This is a good read, from an axademic writer:

https://theconversation.com/goodbye-to-bosses-zappos-is-biting-off-more-than-it-can-shoe-21821

regards

paul

On 20 July 2015 at 14:24, Rosa Zubizarreta via OSList <
oslist at lists.openspacetech.org> wrote:

> Michael, thank you for the story and the link.
> yes, I can imagine the power of doing OST twice a year for many years!
> Awesome...
>
> Harrison, thank you for your directness. I particularly appreciated
> reading this: "I have received calls from all sorts of people, senior
> executives to the shop floor,  telling me that they now knew that life
> where they were was impossible and they had to leave, and could I help."
>
> Seems like this is a byproduct of any process that "opens space" in an
> effective way...
> and no, I don't think it's depressing at all.
>
> Rosa
>
>
>
> *Rosa Zubizarreta*
>
> *www.DiaPraxis.com <http://www.DiaPraxis.com>*
>
> On Sat, Jul 18, 2015 at 11:52 AM, Michael M Pannwitz <mmpannwitz at gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>> Dear Rosa,
>>
>> one of my clients employed OST in his organisation on two different
>> levels every year over a decade. That meant two OSTs per year. In addition
>> he in turn initiated several OST events in his client system and sponsored
>> trainings for OST facilitators on a European level.
>>
>> He is the only one that I know of who recorded the effects of OST in his
>> organisation and the extended system it operates in under several aspects.
>>
>> You can study it in a six-language ebook which is available here
>>
>>>
>>> https://www.westkreuz-verlag.de/de/Practicing-Open-Space-Our-First-Ten-Years-E-Book
>>>
>>
>> Harrison wrote the preface and someone supplied a brief summary part of
>> which I quote here:
>>
>> "As dictated structure, external control and traditional leading are
>> reduced, selforganisation can more freely unfold, bringing into play the
>> vast resources of everyone involved in the Agency. Without consulting firms
>> that cost a lot of money and have no lasting effect, organizations evolve
>> resilient structures and processes that equip them to navigate in a sea of
>> constant change. And they do this on their own."
>>
>> Have a great day... and, by the way, to see the effect of "Mandating
>> stuff is a recipe for disaster." on a large system scale look at the Greek
>> tragedy unfolding presently
>>
>> mmp
>>
>>
>> On 18.07.2015 16:13, Rosa Zubizarreta via OSList wrote:
>>
>>> Daniel, I hear you mention repeatedly, that mandating stuff doesn't work.
>>>
>>> I fully agree with you.
>>> "Mandating stuff is a recipe for disaster."
>>> I agree.
>>>
>>> What's happening at Zappo's is nuts.
>>> I agree.
>>>
>>> I also agree with Harrison about the power and prevalence of the
>>> informal organization, everywhere.
>>> And, about the power of Open Space Technology to offer a "speeded up,
>>> concentrated experience of self-organization in action."
>>>
>>> what I was curious about (and I realize I didn't express it so
>>> clearly...) was about what happens /after/ OST events...
>>>
>>> I'm curious to know, whether people in the organizations you know,
>>> generally remain content with having the hierarchical
>>> "patterns and flows of energy" remain in place (maybe as a sort of
>>> decoy??) while the informal organization continues in a more energized
>>> manner...
>>>
>>> or, if you have seen sometimes, a self-organizing move to create a
>>> "pattern or flow of energy" that "flash-framed", looks different than a
>>> triangle.
>>>
>>> (again.. NOT like what happened at Zappos. NOT "mandated from above".)
>>>
>>> I realize I have been making a (possibly unfounded) assumption that this
>>> is not happening very much.
>>> And, it may be that I am just uninformed...
>>>
>>> Another way of wording it...
>>> I'm curious to learn about instances where the
>>> already-happening-everywhere-self-organization,
>>> after being "speeded up and concentrated" via OST,
>>> leads to new structures (i.e. "freeze-framed patterns and flows of
>>> energy")
>>> that look different than the older ones.
>>>
>>> Feels like a valid question to me,
>>> yet not sure if this is the place to ask it...
>>>
>>> and, I am still sad that the tragically flawed circus at Zappos is
>>> giving participatory management a bad name.
>>> I do wish they had listened to you, Daniel.
>>>
>>> And/ or, to anyone else who might have helped them understand,
>>> that it's crazy-making and doomed to "mandate participation".
>>>
>>> with all best wishes,
>>>
>>> Rosa
>>>
>>>
>>> /Rosa Zubizarreta
>>> /
>>> /*www.DiaPraxis.com* <http://www.DiaPraxis.com>
>>>
>>> /
>>> Author of *From Conflict to Creative Collaboration*
>>> <http://www.conflict2creativity.com>
>>> *recent Dynamic Facilitation deep dives:*
>>> May 26-28**near*Bonn, Germany <http://tinyurl.com/DFGermany2015>;*  June
>>> 12-16 in *Durham, NC
>>> <http://www.solutiongeneratorsnetwork.org/1.0/dynamic-facilitation/>*<
>>> http://www.solutiongeneratorsnetwork.org/1.0/dynamic-facilitation/>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jul 18, 2015 at 9:13 AM, Daniel Mezick via OSList
>>> <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>>
>>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     I join Harrison is what he is saying.
>>>
>>>     "...if we want a speeded up, concentrated experience of self
>>>     organization in action, we know what to do."
>>>
>>>     One time on the phone talking about this, Harrison (paraphasing,)
>>>     you said:
>>>
>>>
>>>     "..the real operating system is self-organization. Everything is is
>>>     [an app.]"
>>>
>>>     I like that quote.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     Quoting the NYT article: some interesting items in it....
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     "The end result was what he refers to as an “operating system” for
>>>     organizations."
>>>
>>>     ...stop right there:
>>>     the holacracy people are really pushing this metaphor. "holacracy as
>>>     operating system." Maybe not? Or maybe (scary idea) organizations
>>>     are not machines at all. Maybe they are living systems? Which are
>>>     not quite so easy to describe, manipulate, "program" ...and control?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     "... Everyone must use the Holacracy software, called Glass Frog."
>>>
>>>     ...wait:
>>>     Everyone MUST use? Really? How's that mandate actually working out?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     "... Holacracy has been met with everything from cautious embrace to
>>>     outright revulsion at Zappos, but little unequivocal enthusiasm."
>>>
>>>     ...stop right there.
>>>     Maybe coercion is actually a bad idea?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     "....I have five hours of meetings today.”"
>>>
>>>     ...stop right there:
>>>     Are these meeting mandatory to attend? Can you opt-out of any of
>>>     these "holacracy" meetings? Guessing no...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     "... Mr. Hsieh sent a 4,700-word email to the entire company with an
>>>     ultimatum: Embrace Holacracy or accept a buyout. "
>>>
>>>     ...wait: an ultimatum? Does that actually work?
>>>     The spin is that all remaining employees are now "all-in." The
>>>     reality is probably quite far from that:
>>>
>>> https://medium.com/@DanielMezick/zappos-holacracy-and-real-options-don-t-commit-early-unless-you-know-why-ba8a7741b1b
>>>
>>>
>>>     "... For all of the talk of self-management and consensus building,
>>>     the decision to go down this path was Mr. Hsieh’s alone."
>>>
>>>     Wait:
>>>     Is this a command, from authority, to self-organize? If so, how does
>>>     that actually work?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     "...Mr. Hsieh he emphasized that learning Holacracy was like
>>>     learning a sport — it would take years to get good at it."
>>>
>>>     stop.right.there:
>>>     Could this be code for "it could take years to */replace/*
>>>     everyone."  ????
>>>
>>>     If so, is this the new normal? Replace everyone? Does that actually
>>>     count as a successful change/innovation program?
>>>
>>>
>>> https://medium.com/@DanielMezick/adopting-holacracy-at-zappos-6664d70c0b5d
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     Self-organization: Do coercive mandates actually work?
>>>
>>>     If not: Is this what actually might scale? Is this what actually
>>>     might work?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     Daniel
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     On 7/18/15 8:05 AM, Harrison via OSList wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>     Rosa said... “I do think it would be kinda fun for all of that
>>>>     self-organizing that is already happening anyway, to come up with
>>>>     some alternative structures to the regular old pyramids we see all
>>>>     over the place...a bit of color in the landscape, as it were...”
>>>> ____
>>>>
>>>>     __ __
>>>>
>>>>     Rosa --There is a big secret. “All that self-organizing” is coming
>>>>     up with new structures every moment. “Structure” is actually an
>>>>     inaccurate way of talking about what is happening... more like
>>>>     patterns or flow of energy. “Flash framed” it does look like a
>>>>     structure, but that is really an illusion. An artifact of our
>>>>     perception. But it sort of works. ____
>>>>
>>>>     __ __
>>>>
>>>>     Anyhow, it seems to me that there is some 13.7 billion years worth
>>>>     of examples of just precisely what you are talking about. It is
>>>>     only very recently that we (Homo sapiens) tried doing our own
>>>>     thing. Lots of wonderful names (Process re-engineering, etc) but
>>>>     precious little positive impact that I can see. Yes I know
>>>>     sometimes it seems that these marvelous inventions of ours seem to
>>>>     work...and of course lots of people make lots of money maintaining
>>>>     the illusion. But in moments of honesty, usually over a drink,
>>>>     everybody who has been around, even for a little bit, is totally
>>>>     aware that nothing ever happened according to the plan, design,
>>>>     etc... When pushed for source, the usual answer (given very
>>>>     quietly) is “The Informal System,” which by definition nobody
>>>>     organized. And that drives Management to despair. In fact they try
>>>>     to kill “the informal system” at every opportunity. ____
>>>>
>>>>     __ __
>>>>
>>>>     Amazing, folks are busily containing, controlling, and destroying
>>>>     the one thing that enables organizations to function. Is that
>>>>     nuts? Seems to me that before we design anything new, it would be
>>>>     well to sit quietly and fully appreciate what is already there,
>>>>     and doing quite well. Thank you. And of course if we want a
>>>>     speeded up, concentrated experience of self organization in
>>>>     action, we know what to do. Works every time as long as we don’t
>>>>     try to organize it. Wonderful!____
>>>>
>>>>     __ __
>>>>
>>>>     Harrison____
>>>>
>>>>     __ __
>>>>
>>>>     __ __
>>>>
>>>>     Winter Address____
>>>>
>>>>     7808 River Falls Drive____
>>>>
>>>>     Potomac, MD 20854____
>>>>
>>>>     301-365-2093 <tel:301-365-2093>____
>>>>
>>>>     __ __
>>>>
>>>>     Summer Address____
>>>>
>>>>     189 Beaucaire Ave.____
>>>>
>>>>     Camden, ME 04843____
>>>>
>>>>     207-763-3261 <tel:207-763-3261>____
>>>>
>>>>     __ __
>>>>
>>>>     Websites____
>>>>
>>>>     www.openspaceworld.com <http://%20www.openspaceworld.com>____
>>>>
>>>>     www.ho-image.com <http://www.ho-image.com>____
>>>>
>>>>     OSLIST To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the
>>>>     archives of OSLIST Go
>>>>     to:
>>>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org____
>>>>
>>>>     __ __
>>>>
>>>>     *From:*OSList [mailto:oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org] *On
>>>>
>>>>     Behalf Of *Rosa Zubizarreta via OSList
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     *Sent:* Friday, July 17, 2015 10:05 PM
>>>>     *To:* Daniel Mezick; World wide Open Space Technology email list
>>>>     *Subject:* Re: [OSList] Zappos Being Zapped____
>>>>
>>>>     __ __
>>>>
>>>>     Yes, Daniel, as you wrote, "mandating a process change is a recipe
>>>>     for disaster."____
>>>>
>>>>     REGARDLESS of what the process is...
>>>>     but ESPECIALLY if it's one that's supposed to "help people feel
>>>>     more empowered". ____
>>>>
>>>>     for me, it's sad to see what's happening at Zappo's.____
>>>>
>>>>     especially because i happen to think that interlocking circles is
>>>>     a fairly decent structure,____
>>>>
>>>>     as far as structures go...____
>>>>
>>>>     __ __
>>>>
>>>>     I'm not so much of a fan of the decision-making aspect of
>>>>     holocracy/sociocracy...____
>>>>
>>>>     but the structural part feels fairly sound to me.____
>>>>
>>>>     i know the orthodoxy around here is that "it's all self-organizing
>>>>     anyway"...____
>>>>
>>>>     at the same time, I do think it would be kinda fun for all of that
>>>>     self-organizing that is already happening anyway,____
>>>>
>>>>     to come up with some alternative structures to the regular old
>>>>     pyramids we see all over the place...____
>>>>
>>>>     a bit of color in the landscape, as it were... ____
>>>>
>>>>     __ __
>>>>
>>>>     i guess we're just not that evolved yet! :-) ____
>>>>
>>>>     with all best wishes,____
>>>>
>>>>     Rosa____
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     ____
>>>>
>>>>     /Rosa Zubizarreta/____
>>>>
>>>>     /*www.DiaPraxis.com* <http://www.DiaPraxis.com>/____
>>>>
>>>>     Author of *From Conflict to Creative Collaboration*
>>>>     <http://www.conflict2creativity.com>____
>>>>
>>>>     *recent Dynamic Facilitation deep dives:*
>>>>     May 26-28**near*Bonn, Germany <http://tinyurl.com/DFGermany2015>;*
>>>>     June 12-16 in *Durham, NC
>>>>     <http://www.solutiongeneratorsnetwork.org/1.0/dynamic-facilitation/
>>>> >*<http://www.solutiongeneratorsnetwork.org/1.0/dynamic-facilitation/>
>>>>     ____
>>>>
>>>>     __ __
>>>>
>>>>     __ __
>>>>
>>>>     On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 7:08 PM, Daniel Mezick via OSList
>>>>     <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org
>>>>     <mailto:oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>> wrote:____
>>>>
>>>>     Sheesh. Yes, and...
>>>>
>>>>     ..I did some consulting for Zappos in prior years. As part of
>>>>     that, I know Tony and have taken some meals with him, some at his
>>>>     home.
>>>>
>>>>     In early 2014, I had lunch with Tony and some of his staff. A very
>>>>     dear friend arranged the meeting.
>>>>
>>>>     The purpose was to introduce him to Open Space and discuss how it
>>>>     might be a good tool for helping encourage self-organization at
>>>>     the Downtown project (DTP) and Zappos proper. During that meal, I
>>>>     left him with a printed copy of the BRIEF GUIDE, and some pictures
>>>>     of what OST in action looks like. Not too much stuff, just enough
>>>>     to hopefully get him interested. A kind of invitation as it were.
>>>>
>>>>     At the time, he described some issues with "holacracy" at the DTP
>>>>     and Zappos itself. I explained how OST might actually be perfect
>>>>     given the situation an timing. I left the meeting upbeat and
>>>>     thinking he might go all the way.
>>>>
>>>>     It didn't take.
>>>>
>>>>     Later in March 2014, I wrote this:
>>>>     http://newtechusa.net/agile/the-mandate-of-holacracy-at-zappos/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     The self-organizing universe creates stories you just cannot make
>>>> up.
>>>>
>>>>     Example:
>>>>
>>>> https://pando.com/2015/07/08/staff-tony-hsiehs-downtown-project-voted-abandon-holacracy-nine-months-ago/fcbd6b7081af428b88d24fddd3fbadfbee6910ea/
>>>>
>>>>     Regards,
>>>>     Daniel ____
>>>>
>>>>     __ __
>>>>
>>>>     On 7/17/15 5:26 PM, Harrison via OSList wrote:____
>>>>
>>>>         From the New York Times: *http://nyti.ms/1Jn1nwh *
>>>>         <
>>>> http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=InCMR7g4BCKC2wiZPkcVUlDMaFOsPrCW&user_id=d0877bb1019932ce3160783833511913&email_type=eta&task_id=1437166724712134&regi_id=0>
>>>> Do
>>>>
>>>>         Love this story. Zappo is going to install holarchical, self
>>>>         organizing management systems.  How many oxymoron’s can you
>>>>         get in one sentence? And according to the Times, the big
>>>>         problem is that nobody can understand what is going on.
>>>>         Marvelous! – As bright as Homo sapiens may be, we really don’t
>>>>         have clue when it comes to the complex, interconnected world
>>>>         on which we are momentarily passengers. But no worries. It
>>>>         really doesn’t depend on “our understanding.” A fact that “we”
>>>>         all experience each and every time we have the privilege of
>>>>         “Opening Space.” We don’t understand it. We don’t “do it.”
>>>>         Seems to happen pretty much by itself. Just marvelous...
>>>>         Holarchical, self organizing, management system! Happens every
>>>>         time. All by itself.____
>>>>
>>>>         ____
>>>>
>>>>         Harrison____
>>>>
>>>>         ____
>>>>
>>>>         Winter Address____
>>>>
>>>>         7808 River Falls Drive____
>>>>
>>>>         Potomac, MD 20854____
>>>>
>>>>         301-365-2093 <tel:301-365-2093>____
>>>>
>>>>         ____
>>>>
>>>>         Summer Address____
>>>>
>>>>         189 Beaucaire Ave.____
>>>>
>>>>         Camden, ME 04843____
>>>>
>>>>         207-763-3261 <tel:207-763-3261>____
>>>>
>>>>         ____
>>>>
>>>>         Websites____
>>>>
>>>>         www.openspaceworld.com <http://%20www.openspaceworld.com>____
>>>>
>>>>         www.ho-image.com <http://www.ho-image.com>____
>>>>
>>>>         OSLIST To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view
>>>>         the archives of OSLIST Go
>>>>         to:
>>>> http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org____
>>>>
>>>>         ____
>>>>
>>>>         __ __
>>>>
>>>>         ___________________________________________________
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>     __ __
>>>>
>>>>     -- ____
>>>>
>>>>     Daniel Mezick, President____
>>>>
>>>>     New Technology Solutions Inc.____
>>>>
>>>>     (203) 915 7248 <tel:%28203%29%20915%207248> (cell)____
>>>>
>>>>     Bio <http://newtechusa.net/dan-mezick/>. Blog
>>>>     <http://newtechusa.net/blog/>. Twitter
>>>>     <http://twitter.com/#%21/danmezick/>. ____
>>>>
>>>>     Examine my new book: The Culture Game
>>>>     <http://newtechusa.net/about/the-culture-game-book/>: Tools for
>>>>     the Agile Manager.____
>>>>
>>>>     Explore Agile Team Training
>>>>     <http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-training/> and
>>>>     Coaching. <http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-coaching/
>>>> >____
>>>>
>>>>     Explore the Agile Boston
>>>>     <http://newtechusa.net/user-groups/ma/>Community. ____
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>     __ __
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>     --
>>>
>>>     Daniel Mezick, President
>>>
>>>     New Technology Solutions Inc.
>>>
>>>     (203) 915 7248 <tel:%28203%29%20915%207248> (cell)
>>>
>>>     Bio <http://newtechusa.net/dan-mezick/>. Blog
>>>     <http://newtechusa.net/blog/>. Twitter
>>>     <http://twitter.com/#%21/danmezick/>.
>>>
>>>     Examine my new book:The Culture Game
>>>     <http://newtechusa.net/about/the-culture-game-book/>: Tools for the
>>>     Agile Manager.
>>>
>>>     Explore Agile Team Training
>>>     <http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-training/> and Coaching.
>>>     <http://newtechusa.net/services/agile-scrum-coaching/>
>>>
>>>     Explore the Agile Boston
>>>     <http://newtechusa.net//user-groups/ma/>Community.
>>>
>>>
>>>     _______________________________________________
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>>>
>> --
>> Michael M Pannwitz
>> Draisweg 1, 12209 Berlin, Germany
>> ++49 - 30-772 8000
>>
>>
>>
>> Check out the Open Space World Map presently showing 403 resident Open
>> Space Workers in 69 countries working in a total of 143 countries
>> worldwide: www.openspaceworldmap.org
>>
>
>
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