[OSList] Self Organizing vs. Physics & Entropy...

[John Watkins]

Chris,

Oh, yeah!  (from an old coot myself)  I thank you for reminding me and us of Bertalanffy!  I forgot that I use that definition of open systems from biology quite frequently as an explanation that has metaphoric and actual application in human terms.  Thus...  Far out!  :-)

John

On Feb 13, 2014, at 7:29 AM, Chris Kloth wrote:

> At the risk of seeming to be an old coot, I do plead guilty to cootness, I would like to clarify one aspect of the history of "open systems." 
> 
> John posted "The term "open systems" comes from thermodynamics, especially from Prigogine and Stengers..."
> 
> While I love how Prigogine and Stengers and others who have explored what contemporary physics (chaos, complexity, string and other theories) have added to our understanding of human systems, I am looking at my copy of Ludwig von Bertalanffy's General System Theory, published in 1950. He is usually credited with both the earliest description of Open Systems (importing energy, using energy, expelling energy) in nature (he was a biologist) as well as the application of open systems to human systems in that same publication. 
> 
> In a practical sense the theory is so fundamental that it continues to inform much of how we understand the world today, including chaos, complexity, etc. The reason I like to keep old Ludwig's work in front of us is that I find that when folks I am working with begin to explore the systems they are part of it is easier to start with the subsystems (individual people, groups, communities) we are able and willing to make choices about, influence and shape... together (oops, have I mentioned interdependence lately?) :-0! They also more easily begin to grasp that those subsystems are part of a larger environment or ecosystem that is more complicated and chaotic... like severe weather (he said with the snow outside his house piled as high as his car windows... oops, have I mentioned vulnerability lately?)
> 
> Thus, (the coot substitute for the currently popular vernacular "So, ..." and the popular alternative of my youth "Like, ...), I thank John and others for keeping the latest thinking on how science may inform our questions and answers about systems in our conversations, but I like to give credit where credit is due.
> 
> Just sayin'!  ;-)
> 
> Shalom, 
> 
> Chris Kloth 
> ChangeWorks of the Heartland
> chris.kloth at got2change.com 
> www.got2change.com 
> phone - 614.239.1336 
> fax - 614.237.2347 
> 
> Think Globally, Act Locally 
> 
> Please think about the environment before printing this e-mail. 
> 
> 
> On 2/11/2014 11:19 PM, Lucas Cioffi wrote:
>> Hi All, 
>> 
>> I read that "Open Space works because self-organization works."  But I remember from physics class that disorder (entropy) in the Universe is always increasing, so when the order of something increases (such as during OS), the order of something else must decrease.
>> 
>> Paraphrased from Wikipedia: 
>> "The second law of thermodynamics states that in general the total entropy of any system (the disorder, randomness, or our lack of information about it) will not decrease other than by increasing the entropy of some other system."
>> 
>> So when participants organize themselves during Open Space does something else become disorganized?  Or is it that all the disorder created (by consuming the muffins, coffee, fuel, paper, electricity, etc) always outweighed by the order created by the self-organization?
>> 
>> For what it's worth, below is an interesting thread I found from the list archives from a few years ago that mentions entropy...
>> 
>> Lucas Cioffi
>> Charlottesville, VA
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: John Watkins <johnw536 at mac.com>
>> Date: Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 12:25 AM
>> Subject: Re: [OSList] Designing an OS way
>> To: Artur Silva <arturfsilva at yahoo.com>, World wide Open Space Technology email list <oslist at lists.openspacetech.org>
>> Cc: "76066.515 at compuserve.com" <76066.515 at compuserve.com>
>> 
>> 
>> Artur,
>> 
>> The term "open systems" comes from thermodynamics, especially from Prigogine and Stengers, who also refer to them as "dissipative" systems.  It does not mean open to change; it means open in the sense of importing "energy" from outside itself and excreting "energy" back into the surrounding system.  Such systems are most often self-organizing and self-recreating (autopoiesis).  They "sort" energy into that which will help them recreate themselves and that which will not, and they dissipate the rest, creating, paradoxically, internally order and externally more entropy.  Bureaucracies are actually great examples of open systems in this regard.
>> 
>> John
>> 
>> 
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