<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Chris,<div><br></div><div>Oh, yeah! (from an old coot myself) I thank you for reminding me and us of Bertalanffy! I forgot that I use that definition of open systems from biology quite frequently as an explanation that has metaphoric and actual application in human terms. Thus... Far out! :-)</div><div><br></div><div>John</div><div><br></div><div><div>On Feb 13, 2014, at 7:29 AM, Chris Kloth wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">At the risk of seeming to be an old
coot, I do plead guilty to cootness, I would like to clarify one
aspect of the history of "open systems." <br>
<br>
John posted "The term "open systems" comes from thermodynamics,
especially from Prigogine and Stengers..."<br>
<br>
While I love how Prigogine and Stengers and others who have
explored what contemporary physics (chaos, complexity, string and
other theories) have added to our understanding of human systems,
I am looking at my copy of Ludwig von Bertalanffy's General System
Theory, published in 1950. He is usually credited with both the
earliest description of Open Systems (importing energy, using
energy, expelling energy) in nature (he was a biologist) as well
as the application of open systems to human systems in that same
publication. <br>
<br>
In a practical sense the theory is so fundamental that it
continues to inform much of how we understand the world today,
including chaos, complexity, etc. The reason I like to keep old
Ludwig's work in front of us is that I find that when folks I am
working with begin to explore the systems they are part of it is
easier to start with the subsystems (individual people, groups,
communities) we are able and willing to make choices about,
influence and shape... together (oops, have I mentioned
interdependence lately?) :-0! They also more easily begin to grasp
that those subsystems are part of a larger environment or
ecosystem that is more complicated and chaotic... like severe
weather (he said with the snow outside his house piled as high as
his car windows... oops, have I mentioned vulnerability lately?)<br>
<br>
Thus, (the coot substitute for the currently popular vernacular
"So, ..." and the popular alternative of my youth "Like, ...), I
thank John and others for keeping the latest thinking on how
science may inform our questions and answers about systems in our
conversations, but I like to give credit where credit is due.<br>
<br>
Just sayin'! ;-)<br>
<br>
Shalom, <br>
<br>
Chris Kloth
<br>
ChangeWorks of the Heartland<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:chris.kloth@got2change.com">chris.kloth@got2change.com</a>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.got2change.com/">www.got2change.com</a>
<br>
phone - 614.239.1336
<br>
fax - 614.237.2347
<br>
<br>
Think Globally, Act Locally
<br>
<br>
Please think about the environment before printing this e-mail.
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 2/11/2014 11:19 PM, Lucas Cioffi wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:CAEj+rxptuzEi2Za9iPa0iu24ONdopmPxeF_DMjRVQbsmfFdhhg@mail.gmail.com" type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Hi All, </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I read that "Open Space works because self-organization
works." But I remember from physics class that disorder
(entropy) in the Universe is always increasing, so when the
order of something increases (such as during OS), the order of
something else must decrease.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Paraphrased from <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy">Wikipedia</a>: </div>
<div>"The second law of thermodynamics states that in general
the total entropy of any system (the disorder, randomness, or
our lack of information about it) will not decrease other than
by increasing the entropy of some other system."</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><b>So when participants organize themselves during Open
Space does something else become disorganized?</b> Or is it
that all the disorder created (by consuming the muffins,
coffee, fuel, paper, electricity, etc) always outweighed by
the order created by the self-organization?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For what it's worth, below is an interesting thread I found
from the list archives from a few years ago that mentions
entropy...</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Lucas Cioffi</div>
<div>Charlottesville, VA</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
From: <b class="gmail_sendername">John Watkins</b> <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:johnw536@mac.com">johnw536@mac.com</a>></span><br>
Date: Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 12:25 AM<br>
Subject: Re: [OSList] Designing an OS way<br>
To: Artur Silva <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:arturfsilva@yahoo.com">arturfsilva@yahoo.com</a>>,
World wide Open Space Technology email list <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:oslist@lists.openspacetech.org">oslist@lists.openspacetech.org</a>><br>
Cc: "<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:76066.515@compuserve.com">76066.515@compuserve.com</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:76066.515@compuserve.com">76066.515@compuserve.com</a>><br>
<br>
<br>
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">Artur,
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>The term "open systems" comes from thermodynamics,
especially from Prigogine and Stengers, who also refer to
them as "dissipative" systems. It does not mean open to
change; it means open in the sense of importing "energy"
from outside itself and excreting "energy" back into the
surrounding system. Such systems are most often
self-organizing and self-recreating (autopoiesis). They
"sort" energy into that which will help them recreate
themselves and that which will not, and they dissipate the
rest, creating, paradoxically, internally order and
externally more entropy. Bureaucracies are actually great
examples of open systems in this regard.</div>
<span class=""><font color="#888888">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>John</div>
</font></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
OSList mailing list
To post send emails to <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:OSList@lists.openspacetech.org">OSList@lists.openspacetech.org</a>
To unsubscribe send an email to <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:OSList-leave@lists.openspacetech.org">OSList-leave@lists.openspacetech.org</a>
To subscribe or manage your subscription click below:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org">http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
</blockquote></div><br></body></html>