[OSList] Management and Organization

Sat Aug 2 01:12:59 PDT 2014

Hi Harold,

I did 4 days of training with Dave Snowden. He is actually quite dismissive
of a range of methods such as OST and AI, and calls the people who use them
fluffy bunnies! His style is to be quite provocative because he wants
people to wake up and think, he also calls six sigma sick stigma. He
doesn't like people who he believes are relabelling existing methods as
complexity methods.

At the same time, he recognises that all these methods have value in the
right context, and contextual applicability is a term he often uses.

I asked him about Open Space, and within his
paradigm/approach/understanding of complexity it does not fit in. His
methods try to avoid premature convergence by breaking up moments of shared
understanding or group think. His methods push people to scan more data and
possibly unrelated data by increasing confilct, etc.

So I think OST doesn't work for the way Dave Snowden wants to approach
complexity, however that is different to the question of whether it is a
method that does work in complex space. Personally I think it does when
used appropriately.

Hope that offers another angle.

Smiles Bhav...

I am grateful for ^

On 2 August 2014 09:02, Harold Shinsato <harold at shinsato.com> wrote:

>  Chris - thank you again for the mention of the Cynefin framework. I very
> much enjoyed your youtube presentation about the framework to the Art of
> Hosting Community at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRn3BM56W74. It was
> well worth the 55 minutes. I especially enjoyed your questions and answers
> section.
>
> After I listened, YouTube presented a related video of a keynote by David
> Snowden to a Lean, Agile & Scrum conference in Europe. His talk is titled
> "Making Sense of Complexity". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6RfqmTZejU
>
> I found his talk brilliant. I enjoyed the insights, but also the
> challenges. David called himself a "Constructive Irritant" or a curmudgeon.
> I'm not sure I'd recommend the talk to everyone in this group - but there
> is one piece that was particularly confrontational and important. I
> carefully transcribed it for you here. David Snowden makes these remarks
> while showing a slide of a dragon towering over two Knights, and one Knight
> says "Oh No! A big, evil, DRAGON!". The other says "Quick! Somebody hold a
> meeting". Here is what David says (it is at 49:05 in the talk):
>
> "This sort of hold a meeting mentality, or worse still, I mean if there
> was an Agile version of this, it would be 'Quick let's hold an Open Space',
> because we can all have a nice time and nobody will be challenged. Just to
> make a controversial statement: Open Space is the enemy of innovation
> because it enforces consensus. There are actually larger group techniques
> certainly which we and others have developed which actually increase
> conflict because if you don't increase conflict you don't get diversity and
> you don't get proper testing. So the Law of Two Feet is the *enemy* of
> innovation because it allows people to avoid confrontation where they need
> to do confrontation. Right, it doesn't mean it doesn't have value, but it's
> a contextual method."
>
> This statement from David actually interfered with my sleep. I made me
> question for a couple hours my deep emotional investment in OST. As
> mentioned earlier, I saw and still see Cynefin as a way to help promote the
> use of OST. Earlier in David's talk, when he described how to work in the
> complex space, his recommendations sounded a lot like an OST event. But
> quote I offer from him was clearly hostile to OST. My first reaction to his
> "irritant" statement was that OST does *not* enforce consensus. But other
> parts of his statement raise interesting questions. Is there value in
> setting up large group processes that don't allow people to avoid
> confrontation? Can OST prevent needed conflict?
>
> My take on Open Space as a method is that it has been traversing the chasm
> on the innovation cycle between Early Adopter phase, and Early Majority. I
> had expected Agile to help push Open Space over to Early Majority. It
> sounds like OST may already be in the Early Majority phase in the Agile
> community based on David Snowden's missive against it. I've also predicted
> that OST will start facing open and active hostility as it starts to break
> into Early Majority. David Snowden may be some evidence this is happening.
>
> I'm quite curious how others receive this statement against OST from David
> Snowden.
>
> Harrison, I quite enjoy what you've written, and I think there's something
> in OST that most consultants and organizational development experts are
> going to miss simply because the fundamental assumptions of their
> traditions go 180 degrees in the opposite direction of Open Space, wave
> riding, and the ancient mystery we might now call our self-organizing
> universe. For me, I don't think there is any end to the digging, because
> there is no way a "theory of everything" will ever be able to capture it
> all. And still, there are some of us that have not yet tired of digging.
> But my aim in the digging into game theory, Agile, Cynefin, brain science,
> Tavistock and group relations, sociology, psychology, etc. etc. is not "how
> to deal with massive complexity ... by ... making models, and gathering
> data." The joy in the digging is not to try to get to the bottom of it.
> There is no bottom. There will never be a theory of everything. But making
> maps, as long as we understand their fundamental limits, is a wonderful
> thing. As long as we don't confuse them with the territory.
>
>     Harold
>
>
>
> On 7/31/14 12:59 PM, Harrison Owen wrote:
>
> Good thinking Peggy, and having spent no small amount of time, paper, and
> ink exploring the world of emergence or self organization – I can
> definitely appreciate the effort. Helping people to develop an awareness of
> the flow of the enterprise is definite plus. Having said that, I find
> myself needing to issue a caveat. Producing a model, even a very good
> model, of the flow of self organization as it relates to complexity, is not
> to suggest that we can fully understand the process, even less that we
> could predict or control it. My experience has been that the more I know,
> in the sense of actual experience and perception, the less I understand.
> Perhaps it is the advance of senility, but I find my rational capacity
> totally overwhelmed and over-awed by the magnificent mystery of our
> evolving cosmos. This is not simply the majesty of infinite space/time –
> but equally the fantastic complexity, diversity and connectedness of the
> smallest creatures. The Hummingbirds, for example who feed at my window.
> The Paramecium (single celled protozoa that swim in my lake). A single snow
> flake.
>
>
>
> Some might take my statement as the despairing cry of an old man. The “old
> man” part is dead on... but there is no despair. Just the opposite, in
> fact. It feels just wonderful! I am reminded of conversations over the
> years with various “Systems Thinking” friends. Bright people all, with
> enthusiasm unbounded. They were certain that if they thought hard enough,
> collected data long enough – for sure they could design the perfect system,
> or at least understand the one of which they were a part (their business,
> etc.). They sensed victory just over the hill, and I surely wished them
> well. For myself, inspired by their effort, I tried to do the same. But for
> me, the harder I tried, the worse it got. In fact it became an infinite
> regression into ultimate complexity. One could call it an exercise in
> despair. But that is not how it felt... Liberation was more to the point
> with the realization that you just couldn’t get there from here...Wonderful!
>
>
>
> But how to deal with massive complexity in real life situations if not by
> thinking about it, making models, and gathering data? It is not that
> thought, models and data were somehow evil or useless, but in terms of my
> quest, they only led down a rabbit hole out of which I could not come. And
> the harder I tried, the deeper I sunk... It felt just wonderful to just
> stop digging! But the complexity of life remained.
>
>
>
> Somewhere along the line an odd curiosity captured my attention. As our
> marvelous natural experiment in self organization (AKA OST) proceeded, it
> dawned on me that contrary to all of my preconceived notions, multiple
> groups of people of all sorts and conditions from every part of the world
> seemingly engaged their complex, self organizing world in an effective and
> productive fashion without benefit of prior instruction, models of whatever
> sort, intense facilitation (handholding)... In a word it appeared to be a
> natural act. Even more counter intuitive (counter to my intuition and
> expectations) was the fact that in those (relatively few) situations in
> which either I or some colleague had endeavored to “prepare” the
> participants with conceptual models, exercises of various sorts, or
> explanation of the process (other than the normal OS invitation to sit in
> circle) there was no visible sign of improved performance, so far as I
> could see, and in fact there was some indication of a decline. Now, almost
> 30 years into the experiment I also have to say that my most difficult
> groups, without exception, were those composed of The Professionals. Those
> people who made it their business to THINK about all the details
> (facilitators, systems theorists, etc.). Eventually even these folks “got
> with the program” and everything happened just as it usually does in Open
> Space. But the shift occurred, as I saw it, only when they stopped thinking
> about it.
>
>
>
> I think there may be a lesson here. Engaging complexity is not primarily a
> rational act. Even though complexity is a basic existential concern for all
> of us, right up there with Death – the resolution to our dilemma will not
> be found through rational enterprise (thinking about it). A major
> frustration for us all! But the good news is that we do not have to travel
> that route. Indeed we really don’t have to travel at all. We’re already
> there!
>
>
>
> Proof is a slippery word, but I think it fair to say that the 30 year
> Natural Experiment of Open Space has rendered a verdict almost as good.
> Highly Probable. Given our experience of 1000’s of groups effectively
> dealing with complex, conflicted, inflammable issues prepared only by a
> 10-15 minute invitation/introduction...It is highly probable that the
> essential skills and mechanisms were already present within the group prior
> to their arrival at the circle. In short they were “already there.” No need
> to think about it. Just Do it!
>
>
>
> Once done, it is then time for rational reflection. In truth our innate
> capacity for dealing with complexity, once awakened, flows so seamlessly
> that most people hardly notice. At the end of every Open Space in my
> experience the people evidenced some real sense of joy, satisfaction,
> completion... and little appreciation of how it all happened. It just was.
> That is all they know, and all they care to know. That status may be more
> than sufficient in the moment, but it is also true that rational reflection
> in all its forms (model building, data collection, etc) can enhance the
> appreciation, and deepen the experience.
>
>
>
> As one who has spent a lifetime doing all that “rational activity” from
> model building to data collection (well, story collection J), I can truly
> appreciate and applaud the effort. Useful undertaking, I think. BUT none of
> that can hold a candle to the profound sense of wonder and awe that I
> experience in the silence of my not-knowing. That is truly wonderful.
>
>
>
>
>
> Harrison
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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>
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