[OSList] The OST Game

[Phelim McDermott]

Hi Paul and all 

....also here we come back to Carse's distinction between a finite and an infinite game. 

A finite game has a goal..... to win. (Our predominant culture)
an infinite game is played for the pleasure of the game itself..

if life were played for the infinite game as apposed to the finite game our society would be different..

this is Carse's thesis as I understand it. 

I think when i discovered OST i realised it was the infinite game possibility that flirted with my interest. 

however as Carse says an infinite game can easily and often is played as a finite game.. 


Best regards,

Phelim McDermott

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> On 21 Oct 2013, at 22:46, paul levy <paul at cats3000.net> wrote:
> 
> Or maybe goal setting is just another gorgeous example of the mystery of self-organisation ? 
> 
> Those who cannot hear the music think that the dancer is mad...
> 
> Warm wishes 
> Paul Levy
> 
>> On Monday, 21 October 2013, Harrison Owen wrote:
>> John I like what you say... and given the (only) two conclusions I have managed to reach after all these years: A) All systems are open. B) All systems are self organizing... the devil draws me to a third conclusion. Goal seeking systems are purely a figment of our imagination created in a desperate attempt to satisfy our unending (and futile) need for control. You know the scenario. We (I) created it, We (I) set the goals, We (I) control... Lovely idea, but it never happened and never will. Of course, that is all pure speculation and heresy.
>> 
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>> Harrison
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>> Harrison Owen
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>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of OSLIST Go to:http://lists.openspacetech.org/listinfo.cgi/oslist-openspacetech.org
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>>  
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>> From: oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org [mailto:oslist-bounces at lists.openspacetech.org] On Behalf Of John Watkins
>> Sent: Monday, October 21, 2013 11:19 AM
>> To: World wide Open Space Technology email list
>> Subject: Re: [OSList] The OST Game
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> I don't think self organizing systems are goal seeking systems.  By definition, goal seeking systems are homeostatic, and not emergent or transformational.  I think self organizing systems are purpose seeking systems; hence, as Peggy says, always looking for new meanings to emerge in a dialectic of emergence, but never settling into any one final "eternal return," like "strange attractors," always wobbling into new versions of themselves.  I think the question of game vs. not game might be solved by saying emergent self organizing systems are systems at play, "lila" in the tantric view, "the play of the goddess," indeterminate, recursive, entangled, confounding traditional goal seeking or linear causal or probabilistic behavior.
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>> John
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>> On Oct 20, 2013, at 7:43 AM, Peggy Holman wrote:
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>> Great thread!
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>> To Paul's question
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>> what is the goal (if any) of self-organizing behavior?
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>> Harrison referenced one of Kauffman's conditions for self-organizing -- the search for fitness.
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>> I believe that in human systems, the search for fitness looks like a search for meaning. 
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>> Harrison said:
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>> You don’t have a self without a world, nor do you have a world without selves. It is not one OR the other, but definitely a both/and. Dialectic, polar, all at once. Nice I always thought.
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>> Nice thing about a search for meaning.  It can start as a solo act.  And you may pick up friends along the way.  Sometimes that evolves into a movement (Agile, Open Space, etc.). And sometimes it even disappears into a world view. 
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>> Or not.
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>> Peggy
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>> Sent from my iPad
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>> 425-746-6274
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>> www.peggyholman.com
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>> On Oct 15, 2013, at 3:59 AM, "Harrison Owen" <hhowen at verizon.net> wrote:
>> 
>> Dan said: : “what is the goal (if any) of self-organizing behavior?” Good question indeed. Stuart Kaufmann (Biologist) says that one of the conditions for self organization is what he calls, “The search for fitness.” I take this to be a modification of Darwin’s “Survival of the fittest.” The idea is that self organizing systems engage in a search for ways to enhance the way they fit with the environment and fit together internally. Those most fully aligned with the environment, with all their parts engaged tend to survive. Works for me.
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>> Harrison
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>> Harrison Owen<
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