the future of the oslist -- news and a proposal

[Michael M Pannwitz]

Dear Peggy and michael h,
I am specifically interested in complete archives, including what Peggy 
has on her computer dating back to 1996. Of course, they should be in a 
safe, permanent home. And I will contribute financially.
Regarding the other stuff, I will raise that issue in the fall boscop 
retreat next week and be back to you with whatever we come up with.
Greetings from Berlin
mmp

Peggy Holman schrieb:
> Michael,
> 
> Many thanks for the research.  I hope we can use the opportunity to
> also convert the original list messages that date from 1996 that I've
> got on my computer but aren't in the archives as part of the
> transition.
> 
> And I'm certainly willing to contribute to the $500.  This list has
> been a gift that keeps giving!
> 
> Peggy
> 
> 
> On Aug 19, 2010, at 11:05 PM, Michael Herman wrote:
> 
>> harold -- here's more.  i you suggested the mailman route i went
>> looking some more.  i found this...
>> http://blog.anthonyrthompson.com/listserv-to-mailman/ and it seems
>> to be the blueprint for converting the archives we have into a
>> format that the mailman software would require.  so we could blow
>> off l-soft altogether.
>> 
>> i still like the idea of migrating/converting/maintaining the
>> publicly searchable archive as first task and then creating a new
>> list alongside of other lists that exist, and send messages from
>> all of them to the one searchable archive.
>> 
>> so this article i've found seems to prove that it's quite possible
>> to make the shift you're suggesting.  then the question becomes...
>> who can do it and then, who can maintain the thing, who can handle
>> ongoing support, admin, updating and all that... and can that be
>> done by anyone for the long term, and can that possibly be done for
>> less than $500 year.
>> 
>> i've sent a message to the author of this conversion guide i've
>> linked to above and asked what conversion might cost, cuz i can
>> understand in theory what he's talking about, but i can't possibly
>> implement the actual steps he's detailed.
>> 
>> m
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> Michael Herman Michael Herman Associates
>> 
>> http://MichaelHerman.com http://RonanParkTrail.com 
>> http://ManorNeighbors.com http://ChicagoConservationCorps.org 
>> http://OpenSpaceWorld.org
>> 
>> 312-280-7838 (mobile)
>> 
>> 
>> On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 12:12 AM, Michael Herman
>> <michael at michaelherman.com> wrote: harold -- the $500 is not really
>> a cost we can get around.  if we want to keep our 29000 messages.
>> we need to run "listserv" (l-soft's brand name email discussion
>> list software) in order to keep our archives publicly available and
>> searchable.  that cost includes hosting... but mostly it's for the
>> use of the software.  then the question of where the conversation
>> continues is wide open.  googlegroups is free and easy, so seemed a
>> good first choice.  but we can go anywhere with that.  it's the
>> archives that are not very easily written into another platform and
>> the archives that actually require some spending (or dependence on
>> the goodwill of some other organization already running the l-soft
>> listserv software).
>> 
>> does this make sense?
>> 
>> 
>> m
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> Michael Herman Michael Herman Associates
>> 
>> http://MichaelHerman.com http://RonanParkTrail.com 
>> http://ManorNeighbors.com http://ChicagoConservationCorps.org 
>> http://OpenSpaceWorld.org
>> 
>> 312-280-7838 (mobile)
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 11:44 PM, Harold Shinsato
>> <harold at shinsato.com> wrote: Hi Michael,
>> 
>> I can see you've put a lot of work into this already. I know that a
>> lot of times you get what you pay for - but it's not always a
>> linear equation.
>> 
>> There is a web hosting company - dreamhost.com - that offers full
>> service hosting free to US 501(c)(3) companies. They also offer
>> listserve type features - specifically the open source GNU
>> "Mailman" software.
>> 
>> This would also provide the feature of full portability (as long as
>> we could install the GNU mailman software on our webhosting
>> company.) And since many of these low cost web hosting companies
>> are offering unlimited storage at their $100 a year plans - it
>> would be quite feasible to also port the full message archive. And
>> in the case of Dream host, it should be possible for $0 a year.
>> 
>> Googlegroups is a viable free option, and maybe we can get the
>> listserve style feature at a lower cost per year.
>> 
>> Harold
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 8/19/10 7:32 PM, Michael Herman wrote:
>>> justin -- glad to talk through it with you.  ring anytime.  and
>>> the $500 annually would go to l-soft (makers of "listserv" which
>>> powers the list.  the set-up fee would be for initiating the new
>>> list and migrating all users and archives.  the annual $500
>>> covers dedicated hosting, list maintenance/upgrades, sort of
>>> stuff.
>>> 
>>> raffi -- one of the things i like about this particular solution
>>> is that we anchor one big archive with the 29000 messages we
>>> have, but we continue the conversation elsewhere, on a list
>>> called 'oslist' but also on any other regional lists, with the
>>> content from all of them hitting the central searchable archive.
>>> this means that where we have the conversation no longer matters.
>>> start a googlegroup.  if we hate that then we can move someplace
>>> else, but wherever we go, we just keep forwarding a copy of
>>> everything to the archive.  that way we're tied only to listserv.
>>> until we write our own listware, we're always going to be tied to
>>> somebody's product.  so sticking with the ones that brought us
>>> this far would seem the best option.  i don't see any reason to
>>> spend anything to convert our listserv (brand name) archive into
>>> google or yahoo or any other list platform, and just depend on a
>>> different company/platform.  but this way, we only depend on
>>> l-soft for the archiving.  the conversations can happen anywhere,
>>> starting and stopping in whatever ways they will.
>>> 
>>> thanks to everyone else who's said so far that they'd like to
>>> help with the funding end.
>>> 
>>> m
>>> 
>>> --
>>> 
>>> Michael Herman Michael Herman Associates
>>> 
>>> http://MichaelHerman.com http://RonanParkTrail.com 
>>> http://ManorNeighbors.com http://ChicagoConservationCorps.org 
>>> http://OpenSpaceWorld.org
>>> 
>>> 312-280-7838 (mobile)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 6:44 PM, Thomas Herrmann
>>> <thomas at openspaceconsulting.com> wrote: I agree with all the
>>> thanks Michael – Txs for the work you’ve done already!
>>> 
>>> Sound like a great proposal to me, even if I cannot make a
>>> technical evaluation I trust you and others on the list to have
>>> that competence.
>>> 
>>> I think the Swedish OSI might have some kronor to put into this
>>> transition/maintenance. Let me know and I’ll put a proposal
>>> forward to our board. Best regards
>>> 
>>> Thomas
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Från: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] För Michael
>>> Herman Skickat: den 19 augusti 2010 19:38 Till:
>>> OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU Ämne: the future of the oslist --
>>> news and a proposal
>>> 
>>> 
>>> hello all, a bit of very important news and a proposal for the
>>> future of the oslist.
>>> 
>>> the oslist -- in it's current form -- will cease to exist within
>>> the next year.  i have been in contact with our boise state hosts
>>> and with the makers of the software that drives our list and
>>> archives.  i've developed a bit of a work-around plan (working
>>> around paying the software company or anyone else large sums of
>>> money annually to run the future of the list).  the softward
>>> company has confirmed for me that this (rather non-standard use
>>> of their software) is indeed technically feasible.  another nice
>>> thing about it is that it makes the oslist structure look even
>>> more like what we do in open space meetings.
>>> 
>>> the oslist at boise state is done as of june 30th 2011, they are
>>> cancelling their license and migrating all university groups to
>>> googlegroups.  on that date, oslist will disappear, unless we do
>>> something to move it.
>>> 
>>> IF we can find another organization to host us as bsu has, then
>>> we can (pay someone to) migrate our archive and user list and go
>>> on our merry way, subject again to the whims of their IT
>>> department.
>>> 
>>> IF, instead, we choose to fund our own implementation of the
>>> listserv (brand name) software, we can migrate our archives and
>>> continue our conversation.
>>> 
>>> ALTERNATIVELY, or more creatively... we can contract with l-soft
>>> directly to set-up and maintain our archive, control that for
>>> ourselves going forward, AND set it up in a way that would add to
>>> the archive going forward any postings from any other email list,
>>> like germany, europe, australia, uk, etc.  what's more, this
>>> turns out to be the cheapest option, because we only need to pay
>>> for listserv software for the archiving function, rather than for
>>> a full-blown list that will deliver to 700 people at a cost of
>>> almost $2 for EVERY message sent to the list (this assumes we
>>> would pay for the service rather than license and run this for
>>> ourselves.  harrison is fond of saying that we have done all this
>>> without a marketing department.  why add an IT department now?)
>>> this is my suggestion.
>>> 
>>> and this is what i'm proposing (offering) to do now:
>>> 
>>> 1. migrate all of our members to a new oslist at googlegroups
>>> (yes, googlegroups.  people who pay attention to such things seem
>>> to prefer the functionality there and since our list is public
>>> anyway, there are no issues with privacy and control of content.
>>> but we will also archive in two other places, a gmail account AND
>>> a listserv system that will keep adding all new posts to the old
>>> listserv archive.)
>>> 
>>> 2. migrate the archive (12 years, i think, and on our way to
>>> 29,000 messages) to a new list that will have only one member
>>> account.
>>> 
>>> 3. make that one member account (oslist at gmail.com, for instance)
>>> a member of the new oslist at googlegroups.com AND any other lists
>>> around the world.  THEN set that member account to forward
>>> everything it receives to the migrated archive.  so other lists
>>> become like breakouts and the oslist archive a global community
>>> record wall of what's happening.
>>> 
>>> it this way, we achieve:
>>> 
>>> 1. a new, free, and durable oslist at googlegroups, with all the
>>> bells and whistles there 2. the survival of the 29,000-message
>>> archive in publicly-searchable perpetuity, hosted by l-soft
>>> (makers of listserv software) 3. the addition of all new oslist
>>> and other list postings to the central archive
>>> 
>>> what does it cost?
>>> 
>>> 1. continuing the oslist conversation in a new googlegroups
>>> oslist account costs nothing. 2. forwarding to the archive of all
>>> os community list mail from any list, costs nothing 3. migration
>>> of the oslist archive and setup of new archive list function
>>> costs $500 4. the cost of maintaining the archive would be $500
>>> per year
>>> 
>>> i'd expect that $500 is fundable through donations and could
>>> easily be handled in the normal course of business and budgeting
>>> of the osi-usa.  i assume it's better to have a legal entity with
>>> a standing bank account take responsibility for it, rather than
>>> an individual or loose group of colleagues.  but i'll leave it to
>>> osi-usa or another group to say they'll take this on.
>>> 
>>> i *think* that any other solution to this results in one or more
>>> of the following... loss of the archives, costs that run to $3000
>>> or $4000 annually (and are totally variable based on list size),
>>> reliance on volunteer community members to be our global IT
>>> department, additional cost of paying community members to admin
>>> the system, reliance on the goodwill of some other organization
>>> (which might be generous initially but could pull the plug with
>>> less warning than we've been given now), no ability to archive
>>> many lists in our one online record.
>>> 
>>> i will check with boise state to confirm their support for our
>>> migration.  i'm told by l-soft that migrating the archive to a
>>> new location/list is pretty simple stuff.
>>> 
>>> i'm willing to implement this, but not fund it.  i'd like at
>>> least four others to sign on as stewards of the shift.  more
>>> would be fine.  and i hope osi-usa will be the official steward
>>> for donations/funding matters.
>>> 
>>> i don't have time right now to discuss this with 700 subscribers.
>>> i'm just one guy, one list member.  this is just my personal
>>> recommendation and proposal.  BUT... if there are concerns about
>>> any of this, i'm glad to try to keep up with clarifying
>>> questions.
>>> 
>>> if you think this is a good way to proceed, please say so.  if
>>> you have something to contribute to the process (time, attention,
>>> money, etc) please say so.  if you have concerns, let's hear
>>> them, too -- BUT if you think we shouldn't do something in this
>>> proposal, then bring your own suggestions and proposals for what
>>> we should do instead, making sure that the solution as modified
>>> (or replaced) is still complete (technically, financially, etc.).
>>> 
>>> 
>>> since we don't have anything to discuss about IF we should move
>>> or really even WHEN we should move, the only question is HOW to
>>> preserve the archive and WHERE to continue the main conversation.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ideally, this would all happen when things quiet down a bit at
>>> the end of the year, mid- to late-december.  that's when i would
>>> be most able to support these things.  anyone else could do it
>>> sooner or later, but i do think that distinguishing our two
>>> tasks, maintaining the archive AND continuing the conversation,
>>> is a valuable way to think about this now.
>>> 
>>> what can you contribute to this (new) beginning?
>>> 
>>> m
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> 
>>> Michael Herman Michael Herman Associates
>>> 
>>> http://MichaelHerman.com http://RonanParkTrail.com 
>>> http://ManorNeighbors.com http://ChicagoConservationCorps.org 
>>> http://OpenSpaceWorld.org
>>> 
>>> 312-280-7838 (mobile)
>>> 
>>> 
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>> 
>> -- Harold Shinsato harold at shinsato.com http://shinsato.com twitter:
>> @hajush
>> 
>> 
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> 
> 
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> 

-- 
Michael M Pannwitz, boscop eg
Draisweg 1, 12209 Berlin, Germany
++49-30-772 8000
mmpanne at boscop.org
www.boscop.org


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