the future of the oslist -- news and a proposal

Fri Aug 20 00:54:38 PDT 2010

what month did the list start, peggy?  i'm wondering how many messages you
have from that date through march 9th, 1998.  might be only 300 or 400?

--

Michael Herman
Michael Herman Associates

http://MichaelHerman.com
http://RonanParkTrail.com
http://ManorNeighbors.com
http://ChicagoConservationCorps.org
http://OpenSpaceWorld.org

312-280-7838 (mobile)

On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 2:49 AM, Peggy Holman <peggy at peggyholman.com> wrote:

> Michael,
>
> Many thanks for the research.  I hope we can use the opportunity to also
> convert the original list messages that date from 1996 that I've got on my
> computer but aren't in the archives as part of the transition.
>
> And I'm certainly willing to contribute to the $500.  This list has been a
> gift that keeps giving!
>
> Peggy
>
>
> On Aug 19, 2010, at 11:05 PM, Michael Herman wrote:
>
> harold -- here's more.  i you suggested the mailman route i went looking
> some more.  i found this...
> http://blog.anthonyrthompson.com/listserv-to-mailman/ and it seems to be
> the blueprint for converting the archives we have into a format that the
> mailman software would require.  so we could blow off l-soft altogether.
>
> i still like the idea of migrating/converting/maintaining the publicly
> searchable archive as first task and then creating a new list alongside of
> other lists that exist, and send messages from all of them to the one
> searchable archive.
>
> so this article i've found seems to prove that it's quite possible to make
> the shift you're suggesting.  then the question becomes... who can do it and
> then, who can maintain the thing, who can handle ongoing support, admin,
> updating and all that... and can that be done by anyone for the long term,
> and can that possibly be done for less than $500 year.
>
> i've sent a message to the author of this conversion guide i've linked to
> above and asked what conversion might cost, cuz i can understand in theory
> what he's talking about, but i can't possibly implement the actual steps
> he's detailed.
>
> m
>
>
>
> --
>
> Michael Herman
> Michael Herman Associates
>
> http://MichaelHerman.com
> http://RonanParkTrail.com
> http://ManorNeighbors.com
> http://ChicagoConservationCorps.org
> http://OpenSpaceWorld.org
>
> 312-280-7838 (mobile)
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 12:12 AM, Michael Herman <
> michael at michaelherman.com> wrote:
>
>> harold -- the $500 is not really a cost we can get around.  if we want to
>> keep our 29000 messages.  we need to run "listserv" (l-soft's brand name
>> email discussion list software) in order to keep our archives publicly
>> available and searchable.  that cost includes hosting... but mostly it's for
>> the use of the software.  then the question of where the conversation
>> continues is wide open.  googlegroups is free and easy, so seemed a good
>> first choice.  but we can go anywhere with that.  it's the archives that are
>> not very easily written into another platform and the archives that actually
>> require some spending (or dependence on the goodwill of some other
>> organization already running the l-soft listserv software).
>>
>> does this make sense?
>>
>>
>> m
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Michael Herman
>> Michael Herman Associates
>>
>> http://MichaelHerman.com
>> http://RonanParkTrail.com
>> http://ManorNeighbors.com
>> http://ChicagoConservationCorps.org
>> http://OpenSpaceWorld.org
>>
>> 312-280-7838 (mobile)
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 11:44 PM, Harold Shinsato <harold at shinsato.com>wrote:
>>
>>>  Hi Michael,
>>>
>>> I can see you've put a lot of work into this already. I know that a lot
>>> of times you get what you pay for - but it's not always a linear equation.
>>>
>>> There is a web hosting company - dreamhost.com - that offers full
>>> service hosting free to US 501(c)(3) companies. They also offer listserve
>>> type features - specifically the open source GNU "Mailman" software.
>>>
>>> This would also provide the feature of full portability (as long as we
>>> could install the GNU mailman software on our webhosting company.) And since
>>> many of these low cost web hosting companies are offering unlimited storage
>>> at their $100 a year plans - it would be quite feasible to also port the
>>> full message archive. And in the case of Dream host, it should be possible
>>> for $0 a year.
>>>
>>> Googlegroups is a viable free option, and maybe we can get the listserve
>>> style feature at a lower cost per year.
>>>
>>>     Harold
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 8/19/10 7:32 PM, Michael Herman wrote:
>>>
>>> justin -- glad to talk through it with you.  ring anytime.  and the $500
>>> annually would go to l-soft (makers of "listserv" which powers the list.
>>> the set-up fee would be for initiating the new list and migrating all users
>>> and archives.  the annual $500 covers dedicated hosting, list
>>> maintenance/upgrades, sort of stuff.
>>>
>>> raffi -- one of the things i like about this particular solution is that
>>> we anchor one big archive with the 29000 messages we have, but we continue
>>> the conversation elsewhere, on a list called 'oslist' but also on any other
>>> regional lists, with the content from all of them hitting the central
>>> searchable archive.  this means that where we have the conversation no
>>> longer matters.  start a googlegroup.  if we hate that then we can move
>>> someplace else, but wherever we go, we just keep forwarding a copy of
>>> everything to the archive.  that way we're tied only to listserv.  until we
>>> write our own listware, we're always going to be tied to somebody's
>>> product.  so sticking with the ones that brought us this far would seem the
>>> best option.  i don't see any reason to spend anything to convert our
>>> listserv (brand name) archive into google or yahoo or any other list
>>> platform, and just depend on a different company/platform.  but this way, we
>>> only depend on l-soft for the archiving.  the conversations can happen
>>> anywhere, starting and stopping in whatever ways they will.
>>>
>>> thanks to everyone else who's said so far that they'd like to help with
>>> the funding end.
>>>
>>> m
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Michael Herman
>>> Michael Herman Associates
>>>
>>> http://MichaelHerman.com
>>> http://RonanParkTrail.com
>>> http://ManorNeighbors.com
>>> http://ChicagoConservationCorps.org
>>> http://OpenSpaceWorld.org
>>>
>>> 312-280-7838 (mobile)
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 6:44 PM, Thomas Herrmann <
>>> thomas at openspaceconsulting.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>  I agree with all the thanks Michael – Txs for the work you’ve done
>>>> already!
>>>>
>>>> Sound like a great proposal to me, even if I cannot make a technical
>>>> evaluation I trust you and others on the list to have that competence.
>>>>
>>>> I think the Swedish OSI might have some kronor to put into this
>>>> transition/maintenance. Let me know and I’ll put a proposal forward to our
>>>> board.
>>>> Best regards
>>>>
>>>> Thomas
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *Från:* OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] *För *Michael
>>>> Herman
>>>> *Skickat:* den 19 augusti 2010 19:38
>>>> *Till:* OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
>>>> *Ämne:* the future of the oslist -- news and a proposal
>>>>
>>>>  hello all, a bit of very important news and a proposal for the future
>>>> of the oslist.
>>>>
>>>> the oslist -- in it's current form -- will cease to exist within the
>>>> next year.  i have been in contact with our boise state hosts and with the
>>>> makers of the software that drives our list and archives.  i've developed a
>>>> bit of a work-around plan (working around paying the software company or
>>>> anyone else large sums of money annually to run the future of the list).
>>>> the softward company has confirmed for me that this (rather non-standard use
>>>> of their software) is indeed technically feasible.  another nice thing about
>>>> it is that it makes the oslist structure look even more like what we do in
>>>> open space meetings.
>>>>
>>>> the oslist at boise state is done as of june 30th 2011, they are
>>>> cancelling their license and migrating all university groups to
>>>> googlegroups.  on that date, oslist will disappear, unless we do something
>>>> to move it.
>>>>
>>>> IF we can find another organization to host us as bsu has, then we can
>>>> (pay someone to) migrate our archive and user list and go on our merry way,
>>>> subject again to the whims of their IT department.
>>>>
>>>> IF, instead, we choose to fund our own implementation of the listserv
>>>> (brand name) software, we can migrate our archives and continue our
>>>> conversation.
>>>>
>>>> ALTERNATIVELY, or more creatively... we can contract with l-soft
>>>> directly to set-up and maintain our archive, control that for ourselves
>>>> going forward, AND set it up in a way that would add to the archive going
>>>> forward any postings from any other email list, like germany, europe,
>>>> australia, uk, etc.  what's more, this turns out to be the cheapest option,
>>>> because we only need to pay for listserv software for the archiving
>>>> function, rather than for a full-blown list that will deliver to 700 people
>>>> at a cost of almost $2 for EVERY message sent to the list (this assumes we
>>>> would pay for the service rather than license and run this for ourselves.
>>>> harrison is fond of saying that we have done all this without a marketing
>>>> department.  why add an IT department now?)  this is my suggestion.
>>>>
>>>> and this is what i'm proposing (offering) to do now:
>>>>
>>>> 1. migrate all of our members to a new oslist at googlegroups (yes,
>>>> googlegroups.  people who pay attention to such things seem to prefer the
>>>> functionality there and since our list is public anyway, there are no issues
>>>> with privacy and control of content.  but we will also archive in two other
>>>> places, a gmail account AND a listserv system that will keep adding all new
>>>> posts to the old listserv archive.)
>>>>
>>>> 2. migrate the archive (12 years, i think, and on our way to 29,000
>>>> messages) to a new list that will have only one member account.
>>>>
>>>> 3. make that one member account (oslist at gmail.com, for instance) a
>>>> member of the new oslist at googlegroups.com AND any other lists around
>>>> the world.  THEN set that member account to forward everything it receives
>>>> to the migrated archive.  so other lists become like breakouts and the
>>>> oslist archive a global community record wall of what's happening.
>>>>
>>>> it this way, we achieve:
>>>>
>>>> 1. a new, free, and durable oslist at googlegroups, with all the bells
>>>> and whistles there
>>>> 2. the survival of the 29,000-message archive in publicly-searchable
>>>> perpetuity, hosted by l-soft (makers of listserv software)
>>>> 3. the addition of all new oslist and other list postings to the central
>>>> archive
>>>>
>>>> what does it cost?
>>>>
>>>> 1. continuing the oslist conversation in a new googlegroups oslist
>>>> account costs nothing.
>>>> 2. forwarding to the archive of all os community list mail from any
>>>> list, costs nothing
>>>> 3. migration of the oslist archive and setup of new archive list
>>>> function costs $500
>>>> 4. the cost of maintaining the archive would be $500 per year
>>>>
>>>> i'd expect that $500 is fundable through donations and could easily be
>>>> handled in the normal course of business and budgeting of the osi-usa.  i
>>>> assume it's better to have a legal entity with a standing bank account take
>>>> responsibility for it, rather than an individual or loose group of
>>>> colleagues.  but i'll leave it to osi-usa or another group to say they'll
>>>> take this on.
>>>>
>>>> i *think* that any other solution to this results in one or more of the
>>>> following... loss of the archives, costs that run to $3000 or $4000 annually
>>>> (and are totally variable based on list size), reliance on volunteer
>>>> community members to be our global IT department, additional cost of paying
>>>> community members to admin the system, reliance on the goodwill of some
>>>> other organization (which might be generous initially but could pull the
>>>> plug with less warning than we've been given now), no ability to archive
>>>> many lists in our one online record.
>>>>
>>>> i will check with boise state to confirm their support for our
>>>> migration.  i'm told by l-soft that migrating the archive to a new
>>>> location/list is pretty simple stuff.
>>>>
>>>> i'm willing to implement this, but not fund it.  i'd like at least four
>>>> others to sign on as stewards of the shift.  more would be fine.  and i hope
>>>> osi-usa will be the official steward for donations/funding matters.
>>>>
>>>> i don't have time right now to discuss this with 700 subscribers.  i'm
>>>> just one guy, one list member.  this is just my personal recommendation and
>>>> proposal.  BUT... if there are concerns about any of this, i'm glad to try
>>>> to keep up with clarifying questions.
>>>>
>>>> if you think this is a good way to proceed, please say so.  if you have
>>>> something to contribute to the process (time, attention, money, etc) please
>>>> say so.  if you have concerns, let's hear them, too -- BUT if you think we
>>>> shouldn't do something in this proposal, then bring your own suggestions and
>>>> proposals for what we should do instead, making sure that the solution as
>>>> modified (or replaced) is still complete (technically, financially, etc.).
>>>>
>>>> since we don't have anything to discuss about IF we should move or
>>>> really even WHEN we should move, the only question is HOW to preserve the
>>>> archive and WHERE to continue the main conversation.
>>>>
>>>> ideally, this would all happen when things quiet down a bit at the end
>>>> of the year, mid- to late-december.  that's when i would be most able to
>>>> support these things.  anyone else could do it sooner or later, but i do
>>>> think that distinguishing our two tasks, maintaining the archive AND
>>>> continuing the conversation, is a valuable way to think about this now.
>>>>
>>>> what can you contribute to this (new) beginning?
>>>>
>>>> m
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Michael Herman
>>>> Michael Herman Associates
>>>>
>>>> http://MichaelHerman.com
>>>> http://RonanParkTrail.com
>>>> http://ManorNeighbors.com
>>>> http://ChicagoConservationCorps.org
>>>> http://OpenSpaceWorld.org
>>>>
>>>> 312-280-7838 (mobile)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   * * ==========================================================
>>>> OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU ------------------------------ To
>>>> subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of
>>>> oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:
>>>> http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about
>>>> OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs:
>>>> http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist
>>>>   * * ==========================================================
>>>> OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU ------------------------------ To
>>>> subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of
>>>> oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:
>>>> http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about
>>>> OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs:
>>>> http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist
>>>>
>>>
>>> * * ==========================================================
>>> OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU ------------------------------ To
>>> subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of
>>> oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:
>>> http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about
>>> OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs:
>>> http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Harold Shinsato
>>> harold at shinsato.com
>>> http://shinsato.com
>>> twitter: @hajush <http://twitter.com/hajush>
>>>
>>
>>
> * * ==========================================================
> OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU ------------------------------ To
> subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of
> oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:
> http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about
> OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist
>
>
> * * ==========================================================
> OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU ------------------------------ To
> subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of
> oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:
> http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about
> OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist
>

*
*
==========================================================
OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
------------------------------
To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options,
view the archives of oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:
http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html

To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs:
http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.openspacetech.org/pipermail/oslist-openspacetech.org/attachments/20100820/2729a366/attachment-0016.htm>