SPAM-LOW: Re: AW: How can we foster sustainable outcomes?

Wed Jul 1 08:49:49 PDT 2009

Hi Suzanne,

I understand how you feel.  Many of your questions are  as much about  
consulting (a practice) as they are about OS (an intervention  
methodology).  When I first began consulting on my own I had consulted  
with some companies that used more of what consultant think of as the  
"expert" model of consulting.  Excuse me if this is old info, but are  
you familiar with Edgar Schein's book, "Process Consultation  
Revisited"?  Also Peter Block's "Flawless Consulting" is another good  
resource on process consultation.  It is important to strike a balance  
between what the client wants and what will work to get them where  
they hope to go.

Best, Lucy Garrick

NorthShore Group
Organization Strategy, Planning and Leadership Consulting
Professional Coaching
http://www.northshoregroup.net
Blog:  Global Outlook from the NorthShore
Phone: +1*206-335-5635
Time Zone: Seattle, WA USA Pacific Standard (PST)

On Jul 1, 2009, at 3:55 AM, Suzanne Daigle wrote:

> (warning very long...)
>
> As I follow and reflect on the discussion about visual protocol and  
> offering visual results from an Open Space experience and then think  
> about how we connect benefits of self-organizing to a client’s  
> desired outcome, so many questions surface for me.
>
> How can we honor a client’s desired outcome which assumes  
> predictability and control when Open Space invites something quite  
> different?  With my limited experience with Open Space (I’ve only  
> done two as an unpaid volunteer) and a long corporate career, my gut  
> tells me that the Open Space way of lighting up passion and  
> responsibility in individuals and collectives will lead to results  
> that far exceed what a client could initially expect.  I know  
> because all my life, I’ve seen how much gets accomplished when  
> people are passionate about what they do.  Open Space is all about  
> that. Many clients want a clear-cut route to improved results,  
> better service, higher quality, etc.  This we cannot promise.   
> Rather, OS is a journey, a new way of doing which means undoing what  
> didn’t work, and seeing what we don’t’ want to see to create what we  
> can’t know.
>
> How can we effectively convey to a client the importance of gut feel  
> and intuition, inviting them to an experience that they must “feel”  
> and not just “think”? The dilemma is that you cannot know Open Space  
> until you’ve done Open Space and not just once.  How can you  
> describe what get’s ignited in people when they get to choose (Law  
> of Two Feet), feel Equal and live/work according to principles (4 OS  
> principles) – something that makes so much sense but that is so  
> different than what our current hierarchical world dictates?
>
> Once people are activated in an Open Space way, I think it ignites a  
> longing that is in each of us and the difficulty is that you just  
> don’t want to go back to the old way. How then do we blend  
> traditional and self-organizing?
>
> I struggle with these questions and as I embark on this wild ride of  
> OS, I imagine myself building trust at the beginning of my  
> relationship with clients talking about the issues that they care  
> about and that they know: their business.  Hopefully by connecting  
> and being honest, I will establish enough trust so that they will  
> want to try this new way, knowing deep inside them that the old ways  
> aren’t working any more.  It’s about finding the courage of our  
> voice and actions, doing this together in a supportive way.
>
> Knowing that we cannot immediately and fully internalize all that OS  
> represents, I then struggle with how we can optimize and capture  
> what Open Space does inside you.  What I did with incredible help  
> from Michele Young, who assisted me on the two Open Spaces that I  
> facilitated, was create a visual show that not only tried to capture  
> in its authenticity what happened there but also tried to convey the  
> spirit of the invitation and preparation and the OS concepts and  
> themes of this new way of being so that people through pictures can  
> remember what it “felt” like to be part of this.  I questioned  
> myself in doing so wondering if this went against the principles of  
> self-organizing, equality, and the self-effacing role of a  
> facilitator. Then I told myself: heck…I’m doing it anyway as a gift.
>
>  IONS Conference Open Space in Tucson
> http://www.authorstream.com/Presentation/daigle_Suzanne-208049-ions-away-presentation-open-space-spiritual-inspirational-ppt-powerpoint/
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 8:35 AM, Harrison Owen <hhowen at verizon.net>  
> wrote:
> Thanks Michael -- I think J
>
>
> Harrison
>
>
> Harrison Owen
>
> 189 Beaucaire Ave
>
> Camden, ME 04843
>
> 207-763-3261 (Summer)
>
> 301-365-2093 (Winter)
>
> Website www.openspaceworld.com
>
> Personal Website www.ho-image.com
>
> OSLIST To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of  
> Michael M Pannwitz
> Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 7:46 AM
> To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
> Subject: Re: AW: How can we foster sustainable outcomes?
>
>
> Liebe Catherine,
>
> ich hab zu Deiner Frage schon mal in dieser Liste auf Englisch
>
> geschrieben, aber hier kommts nochmal auf deutsch (ich fänds super,
>
> wenns auch noch jemand, der es auf französisch und italienisch und
>
> Latein probiert, aufschreibt, damit es sich in der ganzen Schweiz
>
> verbreiten kann):
>
>
> Mich interessieren Nachhaltigkeit oder nachhaltige Ergebnisse in  
> meiner
>
> Rolle als Begleiter überhaupt nicht.
>
>
> Wenn der Veranstalter allerdings sowas will, nehm ich ihm ja auch in
>
> keiner Weise krumm, dann sage ich ihm, was er tun kann, damit die
>
> Wahrscheinlichkeit von nachhaltiger Umsetzung von Verabredungen zu
>
> Vorhaben steigt und welcher Aufwand von Veranstaltern dazu mit  
> ziemlich
>
> gutem Erfolg dafür betrieben worden ist.
>
>
> Gleich zu Anfang möchte ich Dir aber verraten, dass die Form der
>
> Dokumentation dabei eine eher untergeordnete Rolle spielt (hierzu  
> hatte
>
> ich auch auf die Berichte von John Engle verwiesen aus Situationen, in
>
> denen es kein Papier, keine Stifte gibt und in denen viele der
>
> Teilnehmenden auch nicht lesen oder schreiben können).
>
>
> Also hier meine Hinweise an den Veranstalter:
>
>
> 1. Ein Vorbereitungstreffen mit einer Gruppe, die in etwa die  
> erwartete
>
> Teilnehmerschaft abbildet, also das ganze System, wie es sich zu  
> diesem
>
> Zeitpunkt für ihn darstellt, zusammenbringen. Sie / er gehört dazu.
>
> Optimal ist, wenn diese Gruppe authorisiert ist mit ihr / ihm  
> gemeinsame
>
> alles zu entscheiden: Thema, Einzuladende, Einladung, Organisation,  
> etc.
>
> Ich biete ihm die Begleitung des in der Regel 3,5stündigen Treffens  
> an.
>
> 2. Eine Einladung, in der nicht nur zu der Veranstaltung eingeladen
>
> wird, sondern auch schon zu dem 8 bis 12 Wochen später stattfindendem
>
> "Nächsten Treffen", bei dem die Vorhaben, die in der  
> Handlungsplanung am
>
> Ende der OST Veranstaltung verabredet wurden, angeschaut werden...wo
>
> sind wir jetzt?, gibts neue Vorhaben?, wie gehts weiter?...plus  
> mögliche
>
> weitere "Nächste Treffen".
>
> 3. Ein Verfahren, in dem so gut wie es irgendwie möglich ist
>
> sichergestellt wird, dass all diejenigen auf jeweils spezifische Art  
> und
>
> Weise vom Veranstalter und Mitgliedern der Vorbereitungsgruppe
>
> eingeladen werden, die dafür notwendig erscheinen, die Erwartungen  
> unter
>
> der gewählten Überschrift auch tatsächlich einzulösen.
>
> 4. Eine dreitägige Veranstaltung, also 16 Stunden auf drei Tage  
> verteilt
>
> (Nachmittag, ganzer Tag, Vor-oder Nachmittag), zweimal schlafen, mit
>
> einer Handlungsplanung am letzten Tag.
>
> 5. Eine Dokuwand mit allen aus den Anliegengruppen entstehenden
>
> Ergebnissen, die nochmal von allen gegen Ende des 2. Tages gemeinsame
>
> zur Kenntnis genommen wird mit der Möglichkeit, dann noch zu jedem
>
> Ergebnisblatt auf einem Ergänzungsblatt weitere Fragen, Hinweise, etc.
>
> festzuhalten.(Diese gesammelten Werke können entweder als Papierdoku  
> in
>
> der Nacht vom 2. auf den 3. Tag hergestellt werden und den  
> Teilnehmenden
>
> am dritten Tag morgens gegeben werden oder als pdf/eDoku nach der
>
> Veranstaltung auf einer www erscheinen, zu der die Teilnehmenden  
> Zugang
>
> haben).
>
> 6. Eine Kontaktliste der Teilnehmenden mit von den TeilnehmerInnen
>
> überprüften Kontaktdaten für alle Teilnehmenden, die das wollen, am  
> Ende
>
> der Veranstaltung an alle Teilnehmenden für die Kommunikation nach der
>
> Tagung verteilen (die Kontaktliste wurde im Laufe der Veranstaltung  
> von
>
> den Teilnehmenden selber erstellt).
>
> 7. Kopien der Verabredungen, die in der Handlungsplanung zu den  
> Vorhaben
>
> entstanden sind, an alle Teilnehmenden innert einer Woche nach der
>
> Veranstaltung verschicken samt Einladung zu dem bereits bekannten
>
> "Nächsten Treffen".
>
> 8. Deutliche Hinweise darauf, das alles von den Teilnehmenden so  
> weit es
>
> irgend möglich ist, selbst getan wird (ihre Anliegengruppen  
> selbständig
>
> organisieren,Dokublätter anfertigen,Kontaktliste erstellen...)
>
>
> Für Veranstalter, die Nachhaltigkeit wollen, ist das alles sehr  
> einfach,
>
> einleuchtend, notwendig.
>
> Für Veranstalter, die das nicht (wirklich) wollen, ist das alles eine
>
> eher unüberwindbare Barriere.
>
>
> So, das ist das, was ich mache und ich möchte nicht, dass es als  
> Rezept
>
> verstanden wird. Wenn jemand es so ausprobiert, würde es mich
>
> überraschen, wenn es nicht klappt....
>
>
> Herzlich Grüße aus Berlin
>
> mmp
>
>
> Catherine Pfaehler wrote:
>
> > Dear Reinhard
>
> >
>
> > As you describe it in depth, it becomes more understandable and  
> really
>
> > sounds wonderful.
>
> >
>
> > What about writing a book on methods and hints for visual  
> protocols? I
>
> > especially like your idea of the participants doing the visual  
> protocols
>
> > themselves. Some might even discover they have a talent they  
> weren't aware
>
> > of!
>
> >
>
> > And my original question remains open - what do others do to foster
>
> > sustainable outcomes?
>
> >
>
> > Heartfully, C.
>
> >
>
> > Catherine Pfaehler Senn
>
> > lic.oec.HSG
>
> > Open Space Begleitung
>
> > St. Alban-Vorstadt 15
>
> > CH - 4052 Basel
>
> > +41-(0)76 - 488 15 46
>
> > c.pfaehler at open-space-begleitung.ch
>
> > www.open-space-begleitung.ch
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>
> > Von: Reinhard Kuchenmueller [mailto:mail at visuelle-protokolle.de]
>
> > Gesendet: Samstag, 27. Juni 2009 07:01
>
> > An: c.pfaehler at bluewin.ch; OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
>
> > Betreff: AW: How can we foster sustainable outcomes?
>
> >
>
> > Dear Catherine,
>
> >
>
> > it seems t get a dialogue between you and me - and Harrison  
> defending his
>
> > turf - while all the others are busy discussing Paris Stammtisch  
> and some
>
> > problems of dogma and exegesis in the holy principles.
>
> >
>
> >  My focus lies on  the os meeting. My heart belongs to the  
> paricipating
>
> > people, my head to the client behind everything.  In a meeting of  
> lets say
>
> > 200 participants everybody can choose between lets say ten group  
> themes in
>
> > every time slot. If it goes for two days, with five time slots,  
> that makes
>
> > 50 groups of which the everage participant chooses five groups.  
> All the
>
> > other groups, their themes, their surprising developments, their  
> exitement,
>
> > their outcome, does not exist for him. All the groups make some  
> protocols,
>
> > but in the worst possible way, in handwriting, and some typed  
> short version.
>
> > Our everage participant does rarely read the outcomes of other  
> groups. The
>
> > facilitator made himself invisible and is of little help. So his  
> horizon is
>
> > built from 10 percent of the whole meeting. He goes home with a  
> beautiful
>
> > experience  of team building and self organisation, and some  
> memeory of 10
>
> > percent of the meeting. The client goes home with some written  
> excerpts, and
>
> > if he is lucky he will be confronted with some ideas afterwards,  
> of people
>
> > who want to ontinue their threads. Who is helping him to build the  
> bridge
>
> > between his basic theme, his exspectations, and the outcome? The
>
> > facilitator? By which means?
>
> >
>
> > I would wish all the os people could take part just once in a  
> visualized os
>
> > event. Some witnesses, fair minded, impartial, are moving from  
> group to
>
> > group, gathering process, results and atmosphere on small picture  
> cards.
>
> > Nobody is noticing them. They put these picture cards into a big  
> picture
>
> > wall, all the time, so that everybody who passes can get all the  
> procedures
>
> > in some seconds time. And in the evening all the picture cards,  
> digitalized
>
> > in the meantime, are shown to the plenum as a slide show with some  
> music,
>
> > for about 10 minutes The participants not only increase the memory  
> of their
>
> > own group from 20 to 60 percent, as scientists can proove, but at  
> the same
>
> > time they get an overview about the whole big theme in all its  
> complexity.
>
> > As if they can suddenly see the whole tree, of which they were  
> busy handling
>
> > some branches so far. I experienced a deep satisfaction among the
>
> > participants every time we did that work. Of course all that is  
> against the
>
> > old os dogma, but that does not bother the people at all.
>
> >
>
> > And the client? He gets a detailled insight into all the groups.  
> The little
>
> > images can be used in many ways to foster sustainable outcomes, as  
> you say.
>
> > They can be clustered, regrouped, with atonishing results, showing  
> what
>
> > people really said and mean.They can be used as material to work  
> with in
>
> > smaller groups who continue with some items, they can be put into  
> the
>
> > intranet, printed as leaflets, little books, calendars, posters,  
> hang in the
>
> > corridors ...  As means to take the results really seriously.
>
> >
>
> > AND NOW THE BIG QUESTION: is that worth the extra costs of extra  
> people, who
>
> > visualize the event? Some clients say yes, it is. It makes the  
> difference
>
> > between a beautiful experience of self orgsnization and the  
> welding of a
>
> > tool for the organization.
>
> >
>
> > I myself would not propose to visualize every os meeting by external
>
> > visualizers.  I would like very much to experiment with internal
>
> > visualization. We developed different ways of visualizing  by  
> participants.
>
> > Once we made 800 union people in vienna draw in little groups, 72  
> images,
>
> > with an amazing result.
>
> >
>
> > I can imagine, that in every os group two or three people start to  
> doodle,
>
> > to draw what they experience, on little cards. A bit like world  
> cafe (I
>
> > propose to the world cafe people to use little cards as well). And  
> then like
>
> > said before, the cards can be hung into the picture wall, group by  
> geoup,
>
> > and shown in the evening as slide show. I would very much like to  
> develop
>
> > this method and to make it available to the whole os community.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > mit freundlichen Grüßen
>
> > best regards
>
> >
>
> > Reinhard Kuchenmüller
>
> >
>
> > VISUELLE PROTOKOLLE
>
> >
>
> > tel. +39-0566 88929
>
> > www.visuelle-protokolle.de
>
> > ________________________________________
>
> > Von: Catherine Pfaehler [c.pfaehler at bluewin.ch]
>
> > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 25. Juni 2009 17:15
>
> > An: Reinhard Kuchenmueller
>
> > Cc: 'OSLIST'
>
> > Betreff: How can we foster sustainable outcomes?
>
> >
>
> > Dear Reinhard
>
> >
>
> > You have a very interesting point there. I have often wondered how  
> the
>
> > sustainable implementation of visible results can be fostered  
> "better" by
>
> > me, as in the post-OS-meeting, I often find my clients to focus on  
> different
>
> > things than what I would have expected.
>
> >
>
> > Then, again, on the other side, I am well aware that a most  
> important side
>
> > result of an OS event is always teambuilding, communication and a  
> stronger
>
> > commitment to their organisation by many participants. And if I  
> succeed in
>
> > allowing the client to really be responsible for what happens with  
> the
>
> > results, then I need to let go after having asked the evaluation  
> questions
>
> > and some others like "Does anything need a vessel for coordination  
> now?" and
>
> > "What has been developing since the OS event?".
>
> >
>
> > Other opinions??
>
> >
>
> > Heartfully, C.
>
> >
>
> > Catherine Pfaehler Senn
>
> > lic.oec.HSG
>
> > Open Space Begleitung
>
> > St. Alban-Vorstadt 15
>
> > CH - 4052 Basel
>
> > +41-(0)76 - 488 15 46
>
> > c.pfaehler at open-space-begleitung.ch
>
> > www.open-space-begleitung.ch
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>
> > Von: Reinhard Kuchenmueller [mailto:mail at visuelle-protokolle.de]
>
> > Gesendet: Montag, 22. Juni 2009 19:12
>
> > Betreff: AW: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST - Foundations of OST?
>
> >
>
> > my two cents:
>
> >
>
> > a principle is defined as a law superordinated to every other law.
>
> > Condition: A certain effect can always be retraced to the same  
> constellation
>
> > of facts. (wikipedia).
>
> >
>
> > In this sense Harrison's principles are definitively no principles  
> at all.
>
> > But he was really clever: two martinis and four mundane sentences  
> - and the
>
> > whole world is repeating them like a mantra. Mantras, as the east  
> knows
>
> > since thousands of years, don't have to have a meaning, the  
> essence lies
>
> > behind them. It only gets painful, if you start to worship the  
> mantras
>
> > instead of the essence.
>
> >
>
> > Why is open space so effective? Certainly not because of the  
> mantras. As I
>
> > see it, we have to dig deeper:
>
> >
>
> > I could think of principles like:
>
> >
>
> > People are basically interested  - to engage themselves
>
> >                                           - to take responsibility
>
> >                                           - to interlink themselves
>
> >
>
> > That happens as soon as one stops to treat people like obstinate  
> mules.
>
> >
>
> > And there exist conditions, which foster that, which support this  
> so called
>
> > self organisation.
>
> >
>
> > Certainly open space technology, as it is practised worldwide, is an
>
> > excellent condition for self organisation.
>
> >
>
> > And your 'foundations' define it well.
>
> >
>
> > Rather often a client spends money for an open space event, and  
> for the
>
> > facilitator who proposes open space as a tool for the clients'  
> purposes.
>
> > This aspect seems to be underestimated in the debate.
>
> >
>
> > In my view the facilitator is responsible to link the proposed and  
> choosen
>
> > form of the event, in our case open space, with the system and the  
> purpose
>
> > of the client. What the client pays for is not the self  
> organisation of his
>
> > people, that is only a beautiful side effect, and a bridge to  
> engage people
>
> > in the affairs of the client - and more often simultaneously in  
> their own
>
> > working conditions.
>
> >
>
> > I cannot understand the disinterest of many open space  
> facilitators towards
>
> > the outcome and its linkage with the system of the client.
>
> >
>
> > That, in my eyes, is also the reason for the disinterest towards  
> optimal
>
> > forms of recording the outcome - and as a visual facilitator I of  
> course
>
> > propagate a visual form of protocol.
>
> >
>
> > The discussions in the os list are mainly conducted with the back  
> to the
>
> > clients, and that is a pity.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > mit freundlichen Grüßen
>
> > best regards
>
> >
>
> > Reinhard Kuchenmüller
>
> >
>
> > VISUELLE PROTOKOLLE
>
> >
>
> > tel. +39-0566 88929
>
> > www.visuelle-protokolle.de
>
> > ________________________________________
>
> > Von: OSLIST [OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] im Auftrag von Artur  
> Silva
>
> > [arturfsilva at YAHOO.COM]
>
> > Gesendet: Sonntag, 21. Juni 2009 18:25
>
> > An: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
>
> > Betreff: Re: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST - Foundations of OST?
>
> >
>
> > Larry:
>
> >
>
> > I am sorry but only today I had the time to answer you.
>
> >
>
> > We certainly need foundations or principles to Open Space.
>
> >
>
> > But I prefer the word "foundations" instead of "principles"  
> because, due to
>
> > the man of the hat, this word is connected forever (only) with  
> "the 4
>
> > principles". And I think that that there are other principles  
> (foundations)
>
> > as important as, or even more important than, the 4 so called  
> principles.
>
> >
>
> > Indeed I think (sorry Harrison) that the expression "The 4  
> principles" was
>
> > badly chosen.
>
> >
>
> > Because it they are "what always happens" they are not principles  
> at all.
>
> > And because we think that we must state the principles in the  
> beginning of
>
> > every session (I myself to that the majority o the times - but not  
> always")
>
> > and I am more and more convinced that they are useless. You can  
> state them
>
> > or nor, and the same things will occur. They are probably "one  
> less thing to
>
> > do/state".
>
> >
>
> > But there are other principles or foundations that are essential,  
> in the
>
> > sense that if they are not present different things will happen.
>
> >
>
> > In the discussion I opened in our wiki some years ago I proposed the
>
> > following:
>
> >
>
> > 3. I would suggest, as HO wrote in the old User’s Guide, that OST  
> begins
>
> > with:
>
> >
>
> >  *   A THEME that is compelling enough, but also general and open  
> enough to
>
> > let people dream about and
>
> >  *   A GROUP OF COMMITED PEOPLE (reason for the presences to be  
> almost
>
> > always voluntary)
>
> >  *   Enough DIVERSITY in the group
>
> > 4. To those foundations one can add others that are generally  
> accepted by
>
> > all practitioners:
>
> >
>
> >  *   The CIRCLE (even if, in some cases, some argue that a  
> "virtual circle"
>
> > will do)
>
> >  *   The Bulletin Board
>
> >  *   The Market Place
>
> >  *   The "law of two feet" (one of the most, if not the most  
> important
>
> > feature, from where butterflies and bumblebees "germinate" and many
>
> > conflicts "evaporate")
>
> >  *   The "four principles" (as I have promised ;-)
>
> >
>
> > (http://www.openspaceworld.org/cgi/netwiki.cgi?FoundationsofOST)
>
> >
>
> > If I were to rewrite this today, I would surely suppress the last  
> line. But
>
> > all the other "foundations" (including the law of two feet) are  
> essential.
>
> > If you suppress one of them you will have a meeting; but not,  
> IMHO, an OST
>
> > meeting. But we may not talk at all about the "4 principles" and  
> everything
>
> > will happen as usual.
>
> >
>
> > Best regrsds to all
>
> >
>
> > Artur
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > --- On Thu, 5/28/09, Larry Peterson <larry at spiritedorg.com> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > From: Larry Peterson <larry at spiritedorg.com>
>
> > Subject: Re: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST - Foundations of OST?
>
> > To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
>
> > Date: Thursday, May 28, 2009, 5:22 PM
>
> >
>
> > Maybe a “foundation” is another word for how I often describe the
>
> > “principles”.  I encourage people, when I open a space, to make some
>
> > assumptions about the gathering to assume what are stated as  
> principles and
>
> > to act on that basis during the event.  I think these only become  
> “assumed”
>
> > after some evolution of consciousness and I don’t experience most  
> folks in
>
> > organizations being there.  I think it is important to articulate  
> them, to
>
> > influence the “social construction” of the boundaries of the OST  
> event along
>
> > with the most important part – the focus question or theme.  Yep,  
> it may be
>
> > a bit of ritualized behaviour but I think it helps increase the
>
> > possibilities what will emerge in the self-organizing process that  
> will
>
> > happen anyway.  Besides, I (we as facilitators) are one of the  
> “selves” in
>
> > the self-organization.
>
> >
>
> > Larry
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Larry Peterson & Associates in Transformation
>
> > Toronto, Ontario, Canada
>
> > larry at spiritedorg.com<http://us.mc546.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=larry@spi
>
> > ritedorg.com>   416.653.4829
>
> > http://www.spiritedorg.com<http://www.spiritedorg.com/>
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of  
> Artur
>
> > Silva
>
> > Sent: May-27-09 5:54 PM
>
> > To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
>
> > Subject: Re: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST - Foundations of OST?
>
> >
>
> > Harrison, Larry and all:
>
> >
>
> > I am afraid that I continue to read only the messages from this  
> list from
>
> > time to time...
>
> >
>
> > Today, I read this answer from Harrison to a reply from Larry to  
> an original
>
> > comment by Harrison. The 3 messages referred are listed below, and  
> I ask you
>
> > to first read the parts of those messages that I have transformed  
> in bold.
>
> >
>
> > (...) Thanks for having done that ;-)
>
> >
>
> > Now, I am happy that Harrison agrees that "the 4 principles and  
> one law are
>
> > neither laws nor principles actually" and that there will come a  
> day when
>
> > The Law and The Principles can be assigned to that wonderful  
> status of “One
>
> > more thing not to do.”
>
> >
>
> > But Larry commented, very wisely as usual, about the importance of  
> some form
>
> > of “boundaries” or “container” for self-organization.
>
> >
>
> > So, maybe it is the appropriate time to reintroduce a discussion  
> that I have
>
> > tried to introduce many moons ago, about what are the foundations  
> of OST.
>
> >
>
> > I mean,
>
> >
>
> > 1) if the principles are not "principles" after all, but only what  
> always
>
> > happens, and eventually even "one more thing not to do" (and I  
> remember you
>
> > that I have done some OST experiments without reference to the  
> Principles -
>
> > and all went well as usual), but
>
> >
>
> > 2) Some form of boundary or container is needed
>
> >
>
> > where this boundary or container does comes from?
>
> >
>
> > I have proposed to call that the "foundations" (not principles) of  
> OST and
>
> > proposed some ideas (that are only preliminary ideas) I would like  
> to read
>
> > (again) your opinions about.
>
> >
>
> > You can found my (preliminary) proposals, of some time ago, here
>
> > http://www.openspaceworld.org/cgi/netwiki.cgi?FoundationsofOST
>
> >
>
> > and here
>
> >
>
> > http://listserv.boisestate.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0401&L=oslist&P=R23925&I=-3&
>
> > X=6543D44B5D0A7C3BC4&Y=arturfsilva%40yahoo.com.
>
> >
>
> > Looking forward to hear from you all
>
> >
>
> > Warn regards from a warm night in Lisbon
>
> >
>
> > Artur
>
> >
>
> > ------
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > --- On Wed, 5/27/09, Harrison Owen <hhowen at verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > From: Harrison Owen <hhowen at verizon.net>
>
> > Subject: Re: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST
>
> > To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
>
> > Date: Wednesday, May 27, 2009, 7:23 AM
>
> > Right on Larry – and I found a very curious and embarrassing typo  
> in my
>
> > small piece. I said, “They (the Principles and the Law) are  
> descriptive as
>
> > opposed to descriptive.” I meant to say,”They are descriptive as  
> opposed to
>
> > prescriptive.” Point is neither the Law nor the Principles tell  
> you what to
>
> > do – they simply alert everybody to what will be taking place no  
> matter
>
> > what. I think that is a useful function, but it really doesn’t  
> change a
>
> > thing. In short – there will come a day when The Law and The  
> Principles can
>
> > be assigned to that wonderful status of “One more thing not to do.”
>
> >
>
> > Harrison
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Harrison Owen
>
> >
>
> > 7808 River Falls Drive
>
> >
>
> > Potomac, Maryland   20854
>
> >
>
> > Phone 301-365-2093
>
> >
>
> > Skype hhowen
>
> >
>
> > Open Space Training www.openspaceworld.com<http://www.openspaceworld.com/ 
> >
>
> >
>
> > Open Space Institute www.openspaceworld.org<http://www.openspaceworld.org/ 
> >
>
> >
>
> > Personal website www.ho-image.com<http://www.ho-image.com/>
>
> >
>
> > OSLIST: To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the  
> archives
>
> > Visit:
>
> > www.listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html<http://listserv.boisestate 
> .
>
> > edu/archives/oslist.html>
>
> >
>
> > -----Original Message-----
>
> > From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of  
> Larry
>
> > Peterson
>
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 9:44 AM
>
> > To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
>
> > Subject: Re: Anti Laws of OST
>
> >
>
> > For me, there is more sense in the “Principles and Law” than non- 
> sense.
>
> > Stewart Kauffman explores the importance of some form of  
> “boundaries” or
>
> > “container” for self-organization, particularly that of cells.  He  
> believes
>
> > (with strong scientific evidence) that real physical work only  
> gets done
>
> > within some “boundaries” or it dissipates.  Cells, he asserts, co- 
> create
>
> > their “boundaries” with their environment through self-organizing
>
> > relationships in every moment.  The boundaries are permeable,  
> constructs,
>
> > open to interchange with their environment. (No such thing as a  
> closed
>
> > system!)
>
> >
>
> > Harrison, I believe you have articulated a set of socially  
> constructed
>
> > permeable “boundaries” for enhancing human self-organization –  
> including the
>
> > focus/theme, principles and law.  These set a temporary set of  
> “boundaries”
>
> > or a “container” both focused and open that change the perceived  
> conditions
>
> > for self-organization at an event or meeting.  Self-organization is
>
> > happening all the time, in every moment.  Our mental maps (in  
> practice) and
>
> > feelings shape what we do as we self-organize – what topics we  
> propose and
>
> > who we connect to.  Are they necessary for self-organization (Open  
> Space) –
>
> > no, it is happening all the time as order emerges.  Do they (or  
> other
>
> > similar statements about the social framework for our self- 
> organizing) help
>
> > people to self-organize in exciting and creative ways?  I think so.
>
> >
>
> > Larry
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Larry Peterson & Associates in Transformation
>
> > Toronto, Ontario, Canada
>
> > larry at spiritedorg.com<http://us.mc546.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=larry@spi
>
> > ritedorg.com>   416.653.4829
>
> > http://www.spiritedorg.com<http://www.spiritedorg.com/>
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of  
> Harrison
>
> > Owen
>
> > Sent: May-25-09 2:59 PM
>
> > To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
>
> > Subject: Re: [OSLIST] Anti Laws of OST
>
> >
>
> > Just to render the whole thing non-sensical, the 4 principles and  
> one law
>
> > are neither laws nor principles actually. To be honest they are  
> just my (and
>
> > others’) observations of what seemed to be happening in any case.  
> In a word
>
> > they are descriptive as opposed to descriptive – You could say it  
> is all a
>
> > joke. Rather like “technology” in the phrase Open Space  
> Technology. The
>
> > joke, however turned out to be outrageously funny – because  
> somehow or
>
> > another truth broke through. We are in serious trouble! Everybody  
> knows that
>
> > what happens in Open Space simply can’t happen. Unfortunately it  
> does – and
>
> > that makes a joke out of a whole mess of other stuff – like most  
> of what we
>
> > think we know about meetings, the management of meetings, and  
> management
>
> > itself. Double trouble!!
>
> >
>
> > Harrison
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Harrison Owen
>
> >
>
> > 7808 River Falls Drive
>
> >
>
> > Potomac, Maryland   20854
>
> >
>
> > Phone 301-365-2093
>
> >
>
> > Skype hhowen
>
> >
>
> > Open Space Training www.openspaceworld.com<http://www.openspaceworld.com/ 
> >
>
> >
>
> > Open Space Institute www.openspaceworld.org<http://www.openspaceworld.org/ 
> >
>
> >
>
> > Personal website www.ho-image.com<http://www.ho-image.com/>
>
> >
>
> > OSLIST: To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the  
> archives
>
> > Visit:
>
> > www.listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html<http://listserv.boisestate 
> .
>
> > edu/archives/oslist.html>
>
> >
>
> > .org/oslist
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > * * ==========================================================
>
> > OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU ------------------------------ To  
> subscribe,
>
> > unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of
>
> > oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:
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>
> > ==========================================================
>
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>
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>
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> > view the archives of oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:
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> > ==========================================================
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> > ------------------------------
>
> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options,
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> > view the archives of oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:
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> >
>
>
> --
>
> Michael M Pannwitz, boscop eg
>
> Draisweg 1, 12209 Berlin, Germany
>
> ++49-30-772 8000
>
> mmpanne at boscop.org
>
> www.boscop.org
>
>
>
> Check out the Open Space World Map presently showing 447 resident Open
>
> Space Workers in 71 countries working in a total of 140 countries  
> worldwide
>
> Have a look:
>
> www.openspaceworldmap.org
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
> ==========================================================
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