London calling-Political Discussion
Pannwitz, Michael M
mmpanne at boscop.de
Mon Jul 11 22:28:17 PDT 2005
Dear Steve,
I enjoyed your political contribution to the discussion.
As far as our missing member is concerned:
When I heard about it (from another source than this list)
I picked up the phone and talked to his wife.
She confirmed the information and was very cautious in talking to me,
explaining that she did not want the media to get involved and that
she would
keep me informed if I sent a mail which I did.
Upon seeing the name of our member in this list I felt, oooops,
thats pretty public and refrained from responding to it.
And I was glad that nobody else seemed to.
I think of him and the others everywhere.
Greetings from Berlin
mmp
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:29:31 -0500, Steve Gawron wrote:
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
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> charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>Hello All,
>
>I am disappointed at the politicization of this Open Space group. =
>Perhaps I can give a perspective that is more objective.
>
>=20
>
>Several years ago, long before 9/11, I worked with a gentleman, Vijay, =
>whose family live in an area of India where both Hindi and Muslim lived. =
> Over lunch, he confided in me that he needed to return to his home =
>village, because his mother was dying. He needed to take his two young =
>sons with him to meet his mother before she passed. His concern was =
>that extremists on both sides in his region would place soccer balls =
>with explosives in the street in each other's neighborhood. His concern =
>was that one of his sons would see such a ball, kick it, and meet his =
>demise. You see he left his home and family in India as a young man to =
>escape such senseless acts of terror.
>
>=20
>
>I asked him how he would explain the danger to his young children. He =
>told me this story. As a young man he discovered a cobra in his =
>mother's garden, he immediately destroyed the snake with a garden hoe. =
>I asked him why he did that. He said in his culture, it was an =
>obligation to destroy the danger, not only for his family, but all =
>persons in his village. I asked him why he did not try to capture the =
>cobra and move it outside of the village. This was his reply: One does =
>not try to make friends with a beast that would destroy you if it can. =
>Not only do you place your own life in danger, but all the people you =
>know.
>
>=20
>
>As I understand the terror situation, the extremists feel that the =
>western culture is threatening their society. In the West, we have =
>become decadent and uncaring about their culture. In their view, we are =
>forcing our culture upon them. Their goal is to disable our economic =
>infrastructure through fear and terror.
>
>=20
>
>Recently, a member of our group posted that one of our cohorts was among =
>the missing in London. This was the only posting and no one responded =
>to the post. The members continued to debate politics in terms of =
>philosophy. One post even said all lives are important, what about our =
>missing member?
>
>=20
>
>All cultures have their own monsters. Do we try to destroy the beast =
>with words? OR, should we listen and be sensitive in an Open Space =
>where ideas are shared without prejudice and spite?
>
>=20
>
>I will leave my soap box now and go back to listening.
>
>=20
>
>Steve
>
> ----- Original Message -----=20
> From: Marks McAvity=20
> To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU=20
> Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 10:16 AM
> Subject: Re: London calling
>
>
> Wonderfully put.
>
> =20
>
> Thanks;
>
> =20
>
> Marks
>
> =20
>
> Marks & Margaret McAvity
>
> S50, C16=20
>
> Galiano, BC V0N 1P0
>
> mcavity at primus.ca
>
> 604-947-0077(Bowen); 250-539-2881 (Galiano)
>
> 604-616-7260(Cell#1); 604-328-4406 (Cell #2)=20
>
> =20
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>-----
>
> From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of =
>Brendan Mckeague
> Sent: July 9, 2005 10:25 PM
> To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
> Subject: Re: London calling
>
> =20
>
> July 8, 2005=20
>
> If It's a Muslim Problem, It Needs a Muslim Solution=20
>
> By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN=20
>
> Yesterday's bombings in downtown London are profoundly disturbing. In =
>part, that is because a bombing in our mother country and closest ally, =
>England, is almost like a bombing in our own country.=20
>
> I am now more acutely aware that Africa is the Mother Country - in =
>the sense of the human species - the mother of us all - and while our =
>MOTHER is suffering, we will all feel the pain....I hope that we can =
>move beyond selective 'tribalism' to include our connection with all =
>life on MOTHER EARTH.
>
> One of our Australian political leaders referred to the terrorists as =
>'sub-human filth' - this type of demonising and monster-making will =
>only add to the justification for the perpetuation of the cycles of =
>vengeance and violence. Until we truly see that each of us is connected =
>on this planet - it will be difficult to create the space for authentic =
>dialogue with those who are different.=20
>
> Gandhi said it well, in words that sounded like:=20
> Unless I recognise that the evil that I see in my enemy also exists =
>within me=20
> and that the good that I know is within me also exists in my enemy,=20
> I have no way of sustaining a commitment to nonviolent solutions.
>
> This is for me one of the most powerful reasons for continuing to open =
>space for dialogue - naming the capacity for evil and hate within myself =
>and recognising the humanity of others - regardless of the acts of =
>violence they feel compelled - or inspired - to perpetrate
>
> Peace to all=20
> Brendan
>
> * * =
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU =
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>------------------------------ To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your =
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>*
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>OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
>------------------------------
>To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options,
>view the archives of oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:
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><BODY lang=3DEN-US vLink=3Dpurple link=3Dblue bgColor=3D#ffffff>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hello All,</FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
><DIV>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">I am disappointed at =
>the=20
>politicization of this Open Space group.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
>yes"> =20
></SPAN>Perhaps I can give a perspective that is more objective.</P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"> <o:p></o:p></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Several years ago, =
>long before=20
>9/11, I worked with a gentleman, Vijay, whose family live in an area of =
>India=20
>where both Hindi and Muslim lived.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
>yes"> =20
></SPAN>Over lunch, he confided in me that he needed to return to his =
>home=20
>village, because his mother was dying.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
>yes"> =20
></SPAN>He needed to take his two young sons with him to meet his mother =
>before=20
>she passed.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>His concern =
>was that=20
>extremists on both sides in his region would place soccer balls with =
>explosives=20
>in the street in each other=92s neighborhood.<SPAN=20
>style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>His concern was that one of =
>his sons=20
>would see such a ball, kick it, and meet his demise.<SPAN=20
>style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>You see he left his home and =
>family in=20
>India as a young man to escape such senseless acts of terror.</P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"> <o:p></o:p></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">I asked him how he =
>would explain=20
>the danger to his young children.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
>yes"> =20
></SPAN>He told me this story.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> =
></SPAN>As a=20
>young man he discovered a cobra in his mother=92s garden, he immediately =
>destroyed=20
>the snake with a garden hoe.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> =
></SPAN>I=20
>asked him why he did that.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> =
></SPAN>He said=20
>in his culture, it was an obligation to destroy the danger, not only for =
>his=20
>family, but all persons in his village.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
>yes"> =20
></SPAN>I asked him why he did not try to capture the cobra and move it =
>outside=20
>of the village.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>This was =
>his=20
>reply:<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>One does not try =
>to make=20
>friends with a beast that would destroy you if it can.<SPAN=20
>style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Not only do you place your own =
>life in=20
>danger, but all the people you know.</P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"> <o:p></o:p></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">As I understand the =
>terror=20
>situation, the extremists feel that the western culture is threatening =
>their=20
>society.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>In the West, we =
>have=20
>become decadent and uncaring about their culture.<SPAN=20
>style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>In their view, we are forcing =
>our=20
>culture upon them.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Their =
>goal is to=20
>disable our economic infrastructure through fear and terror.</P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"> <o:p></o:p></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Recently, a member of =
>our group=20
>posted that one of our cohorts was among the missing in London.<SPAN=20
>style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>This was the only posting and =
>no one=20
>responded to the post.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> =
></SPAN>The members=20
>continued to debate politics in terms of philosophy.<SPAN=20
>style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>One post even said all lives =
>are=20
>important, what about our missing member?</P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"> <o:p></o:p></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">All cultures have =
>their own=20
>monsters.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Do we try to =
>destroy the=20
>beast with words?<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>OR, =
>should we=20
>listen and be sensitive in an Open Space where ideas are shared without=20
>prejudice and spite?</P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"> <o:p></o:p></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">I will leave my soap =
>box now and=20
>go back to listening.</P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"> <o:p></o:p></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Steve</P></DIV>
><BLOCKQUOTE=20
>style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
>BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
> <DIV=20
> style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
>black"><B>From:</B>=20
> <A title=3Dmcavity at primus.ca href=3D"mailto:mcavity at primus.ca">Marks =
>McAvity</A>=20
> </DIV>
> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
> title=3DOSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU=20
> =
>href=3D"mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE=
>.EDU</A>=20
> </DIV>
> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, July 11, 2005 =
>10:16=20
>AM</DIV>
> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: London =
>calling</DIV>
> <DIV><BR></DIV>
> <DIV class=3DSection1>
> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
> style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Wonderfully =
>
> put.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
> style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
>Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
> style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
>Arial">Thanks;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
> style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
>Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
> style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
>Arial">Marks<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
> style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
>Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
> <DIV>
> <P class=3DMsoAutoSig><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3Dnavy =
>size=3D3><SPAN=20
> style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy">Marks & Margaret=20
> McAvity<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
> <P class=3DMsoAutoSig><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3Dnavy =
>size=3D3><SPAN=20
> style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy">S50, C16 =
><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
> <P class=3DMsoAutoSig><st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:City =
>w:st=3D"on"><FONT=20
> face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3Dnavy size=3D3><SPAN=20
> style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: =
>navy">Galiano</SPAN></FONT></st1:City><FONT=20
> color=3Dnavy><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: navy">, <st1:State=20
> w:st=3D"on">BC</st1:State> <st1:PostalCode w:st=3D"on">V0N=20
> 1P0</st1:PostalCode></SPAN></FONT></st1:place><FONT color=3Dnavy><SPAN =
>
> style=3D"COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
> <P class=3DMsoAutoSig><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3Dnavy =
>size=3D3><SPAN=20
> style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy"><A=20
> =
>href=3D"mailto:mcavity at primus.ca">mcavity at primus.ca</A><o:p></o:p></SPAN>=
></FONT></P>
> <P class=3DMsoAutoSig><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3Dnavy =
>size=3D3><SPAN=20
> style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy">604-947-0077(Bowen); =
>250-539-2881=20
> (Galiano)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
> <P class=3DMsoAutoSig><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3Dnavy =
>size=3D3><SPAN=20
> style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy">604-616-7260(Cell#1); =
>604-328-4406 (Cell=20
> #2) <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
> style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
>Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
> <DIV>
> <DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" =
>align=3Dcenter><FONT=20
> face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
> <HR tabIndex=3D-1 align=3Dcenter width=3D"100%" SIZE=3D2>
> </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
> <P class=3DMsoNormal><B><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><SPAN=20
> style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
>Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT=20
> face=3DTahoma size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
>Tahoma"> OSLIST=20
> [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] <B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: =
>bold">On=20
> Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Brendan Mckeague<BR><B><SPAN=20
> style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> July 9, 2005 10:25 =
>PM<BR><B><SPAN=20
> style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> <A=20
> =
>href=3D"mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE=
>.EDU</A><BR><B><SPAN=20
> style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: <st1:City=20
> w:st=3D"on"><st1:place w:st=3D"on">London</st1:place></st1:City>=20
> calling</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
> <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN=20
> style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
> <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt"><FONT face=3DArial =
>size=3D2><SPAN=20
> style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">July 8, 2005=20
> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
> <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt"><B><FONT face=3DArial =
>size=3D2><SPAN=20
> style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">If =
>It's a=20
> Muslim Problem, It Needs a Muslim Solution</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT =
>face=3DArial=20
> size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">=20
> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
> <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt"><FONT face=3DArial =
>size=3D2><SPAN=20
> style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN=20
> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
> <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt"><FONT face=3DArial =
>size=3D2><SPAN=20
> style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Yesterday's bombings in =
>downtown=20
> <st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
>w:st=3D"on">London</st1:place></st1:City> are=20
> profoundly disturbing. In part, that is because a bombing in our =
>mother=20
> country and closest ally, <st1:country-region w:st=3D"on"><st1:place=20
> w:st=3D"on">England</st1:place></st1:country-region>, is almost like a =
>bombing=20
> in our own country. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
> <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face=3DArial =
>size=3D2><SPAN=20
> style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I am now more =
>acutely aware=20
> that Africa is the Mother Country - in the sense of the human species =
>- the=20
> mother of us all - and while our MOTHER is suffering, we will all feel =
>the=20
> pain....I hope that we can move beyond selective 'tribalism' to =
>include=20
> our connection with all life on MOTHER EARTH.<BR><BR>One of our =
>Australian=20
> political leaders referred to the terrorists as 'sub-human filth' =
>- this=20
> type of demonising and monster-making will only add to the =
>justification for=20
> the perpetuation of the cycles of vengeance and violence. Until we =
>truly see=20
> that each of us is connected on this planet - it will be difficult to =
>create=20
> the space for authentic dialogue with those who are different. =
><BR><BR>Gandhi=20
> said it well, in words that sounded like: <BR>Unless I recognise that =
>the evil=20
> that I see in my enemy also exists within me <BR>and that the good =
>that I know=20
> is within me also exists in my enemy, <BR>I have no way of sustaining =
>a=20
> commitment to nonviolent solutions.<BR><BR>This is for me one of the =
>most=20
> powerful reasons for continuing to open space for dialogue - naming =
>the=20
> capacity for evil and hate within myself and recognising the humanity =
>of=20
> others - regardless of the acts of violence they feel compelled - or =
>inspired=20
> - to perpetrate<BR><BR>Peace to all=20
> <BR>Brendan</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>* *=20
> =
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=20
> OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU ------------------------------ To =
>subscribe,=20
> unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of=20
> oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:=20
> http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about=20
> OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: =
>http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist * *=20
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>------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C58614.303AE080--
>
Michael M Pannwitz, boscop eg
Draisweg 1, 12209 Berlin, Germany
++49-30-772 8000
www.boscop.de www.michaelmpannwitz.de
Check out the new Open Space World Map now with 295 resident Open Space Workers in 55 countries (working in a total of 115 countries worldwide)
www.openspaceworldmap.org
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