A question about OS listserv

Harrison Owen hhowen at comcast.net
Sat Jan 15 06:40:06 PST 2005


Artur – thanks for sharing the fruits of your study. Most interesting and
very helpful. There is one point, however where I might take issue. That is
the suggestion that the list is fundamentally American. I would agree that
it is basically English Language, but American, No. Just for the heck of it
I went back over the postings of the last month or two (all that remained on
my computer), and as near as I could determine, most (60-70%) were non USA
folks. There are also a number of folks whose point of origin remains a
mystery to me. Truthfully, I rather like that.

 

I was also a little curious about your suggestion that Americans (at least
those who show up on the OSLIST) are overly polite. As I hear from some of
my European and Far Eastern friends, Americans (on the contrary) are pretty
much “in your face” sorts of people. I, for one, yield to no person when it
comes to curmudgeonly, straight out sort of engagement.  And I am not even
from Texas! So Artur, I hear your words (“This means that, with almost no
other Latin Europeans in the list, I often have the sensation that I am the
only impolite member of the list - sorry for that.”)

But I don’t think you should feel like the Lone Ranger (mythical American
folk hero who does it all on his own). You got buddies around. So put that
in your pipe and smoke it!!!! (and if you need translation, I will be glad
to supply.)

 

Harrison

Harrison Owen

7808 River Falls Drive

Potomac, Maryland   20845

Phone 301-365-2093

Open Space Training www.openspaceworld.com <http://www.openspaceworld.com/>


Open Space Institute www.openspaceworld.org

Personal website http://mywebpages.comcast.net/hhowen/index.htm
OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU 

To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives Visit:
http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html

-----Original Message-----
From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of Artur
Silva
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 7:21 AM
To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Subject: Re: A question about OS listserv

 

Very interesting questions, Peggy (and Juanita).

 

I have been thinking about questions similar to those ones after some time.
Being part or having been part of many mailing lists, Web forums and other
e-tools (not to speak about the old BBS's); being the moderator of some,
very active in one or two, and very little to nothing in some others, but
also as I have prepared and currently teach a course on "Moderating virtual
forums", I began to try to understand, some years ago, why some of them (and
not only this one - even if this one is special) flourish, but others die or
have something like one post per month...

 

Two years ago, when I made the initial preparation of the referred course, I
made a large comparison of many mailing lists (and other forums), one of
them being the OSLIST, and arrived to some conclusions. I agree with most of
what has already been answered, but I will add my answers to some of the
questions, as those answers have been originated with a different purpose
and may eventually be useful  to the owners of the World Cafe list.  Here we
go:   

 

Peggy Holman <peggy at opencirclecompany.com> wrote: 

What has enabled the Open Space listserv to flourish?

1.  Technical Questions

 

1.1. The OSLIST is a mailing list. This may seem obvious, but I have come to
the conclusion that, to create a community, a mailing list is better than
other tools, like Web forums, wikis, blogs, etc, as the messages come to
one's mailbox, one per one or in groups, and can then be read or not, but
one is not obliged to access some site to read and contribute.

 

1.2 The OSLIST is based on the Listserv (and not on some others products
that support mailing lists, like Majordomo, Mailman, etc). There are some
useful facilities that LISTSERV and Majordomo have that are missing in
Mailman and others.

 

1.3. The specific configuration used allows for:

 

- immediate access after subscription;

- non moderated immediate distribution of messages from members;

- option between receiving messages one per one or in a daily Digest
(essential feature when one is full of work or "testing" a list; not so
useful - as Lisa mentioned - when people repeat in full the message they are
answering to...);

- access to the Archives of all previous messages;

- system that works almost all the time (availability higher that 99% of the
time, I would say)

 

2. Moderation Style

 

The self-organization way of working in the OSLIST that has been mentioned,
with no evident moderator/facilitator is the contrary to some other lists
where there is an evident moderator and/or facilitators that are intervening
all the time and "facilitate too much", often "closing" the dialogs, or
directing them, having a consequence that all diversity is suppressed.
Another consequence is that in the OSLIST I never  noticed any attempt to
force people that don't intervene to participate. What in other lists are
called "lurkers" here are "respected non active participants".

 

The presence of Harrison is also very important, as many have mentioned -
but even more important is the help he provides to all (specially to
newcomers) and the caution he uses in  never speaking as the "owner" of the
truth or the one that must have the "last word".

 

The presence of many "old timers" that allow for what can be called
"distributed facilitation" (self-organized, of course) is also a must. There
is not "facilitation" - but there is informal "guidance". 

 

Presencial meetings

 

I think the quality of the dialogs in the OSLIST are only possible because
there are annual OSonOS. It is not important that every person goes often,
but this assures that the majority of participants are personally known by
at least some others, which almost suppresses flames (as Chris referred).

 

Community of Practitioners (CoP's)

 

Participants of the OSLIST are real practitioners of OST - many regularly
facilitate OST meetings, others have facilitated some. This allows the
conversations to be "focused" mainly in "practical subjects", even in the
theory, and the concept of OS in general (not only OST) are also welcomed.
This is different from a "communities of interest" (for instance, people
interested in cinema but that don't work in the cinema business) that are
much less focused and quickly lose impetus. And it is also different from a
group that" would like to be", but is not currently (yet) a CoP - an
frequently will never be, just because they call themselves something they
are not. 

 

The fact that people that only attended a training or only red the book, or
even didn't read it but heard about OST, are very well accepted must be
understood as "legitimate peripheral participation", allowing for "situated
learning" of the apprentices - a normal feature of CoP's.

 

OST Fundamentals

 

There are lists on subjects different from OST that work very well (and in
some aspects even better - see last question), but the fact that in this
list the majority of participants have OST experience helps to follow the
"OST fundamentals", including the law (not only by deleting messages, but by
not reading at all some threads  - hence joining some breakout sessions, but
not others), easy acceptance of butterflies and bees, etc. On the contrary,
I don't think that I formerly need the "OST principles" to explain anything
in the OSLIST that doesn´t happen in other lists.

 

Interestingly I think that this is not so much an "aplication" to this list
of those OS fundamentals, but the fact that mailing list (and generally the
internet) happen to share some of those fundamentals..

 

 

Other points

 

There were other points in my comparison but I think that the majority of
them have already been referred by others. 

 

 

What wishes do you have for the list's future?


More of the same, of course. But not only. I think the list has some small
problems where I would like to see improvements. 

 

a) The vast majority of the participants still come from the USA, which
implies the dominance of a culture that is alien to others, including the
European. Matters and opinions that are "obvious" to an American, are used
directly or indirectly, even if they are strange to some others. The
frequent use of religious remarks is an example, but there are others.

 

b) this list has a limitation that I think also happens in many other CoP's
- dialog is great, "normal science" (OST "science") is improved, but I
wouldn't expect "profound changes" or "paradigm revolutions" to happen
easily, nor remotely related subjects to be addressed often. And discussion
(even if respectful) is often suppressed, for what, in my Latin European way
of thinking, seems an excessive (and Aemrican) preoccupation of being
"polite". [This means that, with almost no other Latin Europeans in the
list, I often have the sensation that I am the only impolite member of the
list - sorry for that]. 

 

This two points are related. In (a): even if we have many nationalities
present, the fact that it is difficult for foreigners to write in English
and costs more time, and the fact that they are few implies that the list is
"American oriented" (that is not a fault of the American members of the list
that always make a noticeable effort to accept other cultures, but almost a
demographic matter). In (b), there is the possibility that we became
isolated from other tendencies (either theoretical or practical) that could
be interesting to the evolvement of OST. I am afraid that the Open Cafe
community may suffer from the same problem - if not why not create only one
list for both, clearly similar, approaches?

 

My two Euro-cents, from the far West of Europe

 

Artur

 

PS: and this one is NOT the other mail I have pre-annouced...

   

  _____  

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=29915/*http:/info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250>
more. Manage less. * *
==========================================================
OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU ------------------------------ To subscribe,
unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of
oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:
http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about
OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist


*
*
==========================================================
OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
------------------------------
To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options,
view the archives of oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:
http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html

To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs:
http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.openspacetech.org/pipermail/oslist-openspacetech.org/attachments/20050115/7c3c1780/attachment-0016.htm>


More information about the OSList mailing list