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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:red'>Artur – thanks for sharing the fruits
of your study. Most interesting and very helpful. There is one point, however
where I might take issue. That is the suggestion that the list is fundamentally
American. I would agree that it is basically English Language, but American,
No. Just for the heck of it I went back over the postings of the last month or
two (all that remained on my computer), and as near as I could determine, most
(60-70%) were non </span></font><font color=red face=Arial><span
style='font-family:Arial;color:red'>USA</span></font><font color=red
face=Arial><span style='font-family:Arial;color:red'> folks. There are also a
number of folks whose point of origin remains a mystery to me. Truthfully, I
rather like that.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:red'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:red'>I was also a little curious about your
suggestion that Americans (at least those who show up on the </span></font><font
color=red face=Arial><span style='font-family:Arial;color:red'>OSLIST</span></font><font
color=red face=Arial><span style='font-family:Arial;color:red'>) are overly
polite. As I hear from some of my European and Far Eastern friends, Americans
(on the contrary) are pretty much “in your face” sorts of people. I,
for one, yield to no person when it comes to curmudgeonly, straight out sort of
engagement. And I am not even from </span></font><font color=red face=Arial><span
style='font-family:Arial;color:red'>Texas</span></font><font color=red
face=Arial><span style='font-family:Arial;color:red'>! So Artur, I hear your
words (“</span></font>This means that, with almost no other Latin
Europeans in the list, I often have the sensation that I am the only impolite
member of the list - sorry for that.”)</p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:red'>But I don’t think you should feel
like the Lone Ranger (mythical American folk hero who does it all on his own).
You got buddies around. So put that in your pipe and smoke it!!!! (and if you
need translation, I will be glad to supply.)</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:red'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:red'>Harrison</span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=2
color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:red'>Harrison Owen</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=2
color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:red'>7808 River Falls Drive</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=2
color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:red'>Potomac, Maryland 20845</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=2
color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:red'>Phone 301-365-2093</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'></X-SIGSEP><font
size=3 color=red face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:red'><!--StartFragment --><X-SIGSEP>Open Space Training <a
href="http://www.openspaceworld.com/" eudora=autourl>www.openspaceworld.com</a>
</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
color=red face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'>Open
Space Institute <a href="http://www.openspaceworld.org" eudora=autourl>www.openspaceworld.org</a></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
color=red face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'>Personal
website <a href="http://mywebpages.comcast.net/hhowen/index.htm"
eudora=autourl>http://mywebpages.comcast.net/hhowen/index.htm</a></span></font><font
color=blue><span style='color:blue'><br>
<a href="mailto:OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU">OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU</a></span></font><font
color=red><span style='color:red'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;text-align:center'><font
size=3 color=red face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:red'>To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the
archives Visit: <a
href="http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html" eudora=autourl>http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html</a></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> </span></font><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>OSLIST</span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> [mailto:</span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>OSLIST</span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU]
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b></span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>Artur
Silva</span></font><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Saturday, January 15, 2005
7:21 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> </span></font><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>OSLIST</span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: A question about OS
listserv</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Very interesting questions, Peggy (and Juanita).</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>I have been thinking about questions similar to those
ones after some time. Being part or having been part of many mailing lists, Web
forums and other e-tools (not to speak about the old BBS's); being the
moderator of some, very active in one or two, and very little to nothing
in some others, but also as I have prepared and currently teach a course on
"Moderating virtual forums", I began to try to understand, some years
ago, why some of them (and not only this one - even if this one is special)
flourish, but others die or have something like one post per month...</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Two years ago, when I made the initial
preparation of the referred course, I made a large comparison of many
mailing lists (and other forums), one of them being the OSLIST, and
arrived to some conclusions. I agree with most of what has already been
answered, but I will add my answers to some of the questions, as those
answers have been originated with a different purpose and may eventually
be useful to the owners of the World Cafe list. Here we
go: </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><em><b><i><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>Peggy
Holman <peggy@opencirclecompany.com></span></font></i></b></em> wrote: </p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><i><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-style:italic'>What
has enabled the Open Space listserv to flourish?</span></font></i></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>1. Technical Questions</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>1.1. The OSLIST is a mailing list. This may seem
obvious, but I have come to the conclusion that, to create a community, a
mailing list is better than other tools, like Web forums, wikis, blogs, etc, as
the messages come to one's mailbox, one per one or in groups, and can then be
read or not, but one is not obliged to access some site to read and contribute.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>1.2 The OSLIST is based on the Listserv (and not on
some others products that support mailing lists, like Majordomo, Mailman, etc).
There are some useful facilities that LISTSERV and Majordomo have that are
missing in Mailman and others.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>1.3. The specific configuration used allows for:</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>- immediate access after subscription;</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>- non moderated immediate distribution of messages
from members;</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>- option between receiving messages one per one or in
a daily Digest (essential feature when one is full of work or
"testing" a list; not so useful - as Lisa mentioned - when people
repeat in full the message they are answering to...);</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>- access to the Archives of all previous messages;</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>- system that works almost all the time (availability
higher that 99% of the time, I would say)</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>2. Moderation Style</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>The self-organization way of working in the OSLIST
that has been mentioned, with no evident moderator/facilitator is the
contrary to some other lists where there is an evident moderator and/or
facilitators that are intervening all the time and "facilitate too
much", often "closing" the dialogs, or directing
them, having a consequence that all diversity is suppressed. Another
consequence is that in the OSLIST I never noticed any attempt to
force people that don't intervene to participate. What in other lists are
called "lurkers" here are "respected non active
participants".</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>The presence of Harrison is also very important, as
many have mentioned - but even more important is the help he provides to all
(specially to newcomers) and the caution he uses in never speaking as the
"owner" of the truth or the one that must have the "last
word".</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>The presence of many "old timers" that allow
for what can be called "distributed facilitation"
(self-organized, of course) is also a must. There is not
"facilitation" - but there is informal "guidance". </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Presencial meetings</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>I think the quality of the dialogs in the OSLIST are
only possible because there are annual OSonOS. It is not important that
every person goes often, but this assures that the majority of participants are
personally known by at least some others, which almost suppresses flames (as
Chris referred).</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Community of Practitioners (CoP's)</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Participants of the OSLIST are real practitioners of
OST - many regularly facilitate OST meetings,
others have facilitated some. This allows the conversations to
be "focused" mainly in "practical subjects", even in the
theory, and the concept of OS in general (not only OST) are also welcomed. This
is different from a "communities of interest" (for instance, people
interested in cinema but that don't work in the cinema business) that are much
less focused and quickly lose impetus. And it is also different from a group
that" would like to be", but is not currently (yet) a CoP - an
frequently will never be, just because they call themselves something they are
not. </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>The fact that people that only attended a training or
only red the book, or even didn't read it but heard about OST, are very well
accepted must be understood as "legitimate peripheral participation",
allowing for "situated learning" of the apprentices - a normal
feature of CoP's.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>OST Fundamentals</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>There are lists on subjects different from OST that
work very well (and in some aspects even better - see last question), but the
fact that in this list the majority of participants have OST experience helps
to follow the "OST fundamentals", including the law (not only by
deleting messages, but by not reading at all some threads - hence
joining some breakout sessions, but not others), easy acceptance of butterflies
and bees, etc. On the contrary, I don't think that I formerly need the
"OST principles" to explain anything in the OSLIST that doesn´t
happen in other lists.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Interestingly I think that this is not so much an
"aplication" to this list of those OS fundamentals, but the fact that
mailing list (and generally the internet) happen to share some of those
fundamentals..</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Other points</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>There were other points in my comparison but I think
that the majority of them have already been referred by others. </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><em><i><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>What wishes do you have
for the list's future?</span></font></i></em></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
More of the same, of course. But not only. I think the list has some small
problems where I would like to see improvements. </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>a) The vast majority of the participants still come
from the USA, which implies the dominance of a culture that is alien to others,
including the European. Matters and opinions that are
"obvious" to an American, are used directly or indirectly, even if
they are strange to some others. The frequent use of religious remarks is an
example, but there are others.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>b) this list has a limitation that I think also
happens in many other CoP's - dialog is great, "normal science" (OST
"science") is improved, but I wouldn't expect "profound
changes" or "paradigm revolutions" to happen easily, nor
remotely related subjects to be addressed often. And discussion (even if
respectful) is often suppressed, for what, in my Latin European way of
thinking, seems an excessive (and Aemrican) preoccupation of being
"polite". [This means that, with almost no other Latin Europeans in
the list, I often have the sensation that I am the only impolite member of the
list - sorry for that]. </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>This two points are related. In (a): even if we have
many nationalities present, the fact that it is difficult for foreigners to
write in English and costs more time, and the fact that they are few implies
that the list is "American oriented" (that is not a fault of the
American members of the list that always make a noticeable effort to accept
other cultures, but almost a demographic matter). In (b), there is the
possibility that we became isolated from other tendencies (either theoretical
or practical) that could be interesting to the evolvement of OST. I am afraid
that the Open Cafe community may suffer from the same problem - if not why not create
only one list for both, clearly similar, approaches?</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>My two Euro-cents, from the far West of Europe</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Artur</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>PS: and this one is NOT the other mail I have
pre-annouced...</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=1 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Do you Yahoo!?<br>
Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. <a
href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=29915/*http:/info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250">Do
more. Manage less.</a> * *
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