Turtles (short)

[Harrison Owen]

Masud -- It would seem that cells have the same problem. If the cell
membrane is totally porous (open) the cell will die. If it is totally
closed, the cell will die. Either way, the cell will die. And truthfully, no
matter what -- the cell will die. So maybe it is a dance between openness
and closed-ness. And when you stop dancing, it is all over. In the interim,
the real question (for me) is how do you dance with elegance?

Harrison

Harrison Owen
7808 River Falls Drive
Potomac, Maryland   20845
Phone 301-365-2093

Open Space Training www.openspaceworld.com
Open Space Institute www.openspaceworld.org
Personal website http://mywebpages.comcast.net/hhowen/index.htm
OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives Visit:
http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html



-----Original Message-----
From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of Masud
Sheikh
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 11:18 AM
To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Subject: Re: Turtles (short)

Thank you for your response Harrison,
Something similar (and different) was going through my mind, which was
this:

When living systems interact with non-living (dead) systems, and if
the "dead" systems start dominanting living system/s, the larger system
starts to die.

There is something related that is important: For any system (once formed)
to survive, it has to manage the degree of change it accepts from outside
the current boundaries of the system. So, for instance the debate started
recently by Huntington's new article about the danger about U.S.A. losing
its identity with increase in its Spanish speaking population - to which
debate, of course there are is more than one side

Masud Sheikh

Harrison Owen wrote:
>Masud
>
>I see where you are going, but would suggest that the real issue is what I
>might call "degrees of freedom" -- or maybe better the "size" of the
>possibility space. With financial systems, for example, it is quite true
>that the system, as originally put in place, was designed by someone -- or
>some several ones. The intent is always to limit the degrees of freedom or
>possibility space. This is known as having "tight financial controls."
>However, once the system in place and begins to interact with all the
>environmental factors known as users, auditors, government rules and
>regulations, rise and fall of the currency markets etc. -- the process of
>self-organization begins again as the total system (including all of the
>above -- users -- and much more)interact and "search for fitness." I am
not
>an accountant, but as a user of some fairly large systems (I used to work
>for the US federal government), I have never seen a system that worked the
>way it was designed, and in fact if attempts were made to totally restrict
>the degrees of freedom, the system typically shut down (died).
>
>I believe we can see the same sort of thing operative in other, supposedly
>man-made, "closed systems." For instance software. You might think that
the
>degrees of freedom in a piece of software would be small to non-existent,
>and yet there is always a shakedown period as the system "stabilizes." And
>some (most) of them never fully hit stasis. By the way, I don't really
think
>there is any such thing as a "CLOSED SYSTEM" either.
>
>So from where I sit, it is still true that there is no such thing as a
>non-self-organizing system. However there are large differences in degrees
>of freedom (possibility space). With a small space, the ongoing adaptive
>process may appear miniscule, but it is still taking place. And when it
>stops, the system is dead -- just like the organic counterparts.
>
>Harrison
>
>Harrison Owen
>7808 River Falls Drive
>Potomac, Maryland   20845
>Phone 301-365-2093
>
>Open Space Training www.openspaceworld.com
>Open Space Institute www.openspaceworld.org
>Personal website http://mywebpages.comcast.net/hhowen/index.htm
>OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
>To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives Visit:
>http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of Masud
>Sheikh
>Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 8:50 AM
>To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
>Subject: Re: Turtles (short)
>
>HO wrote:
>"Or put rather bluntly - there is no such thing as a non-self-organizing
>system. There are only some mildly deluded folks who think they did the
>organizing. Outrageous for sure, and possibly a break with reality, but
that
>is pretty much where I found myself."
>
>I believe the statement "there is no such thing as a non-self-organizing
>system" is true for living systems, but not for non-living systems. For
>instance, in any "organization" there are systems of people, who find that
>the best team-building may be done around the coffee machine or bar,
rather
>than in a classroom, teaching "teamwork". There are other systems (e.g.
the
>financial reporting system) that are non-living. Both the living and
>non-living systems interact with - and impact - each other.
>
>Let me stop here, and invite others to join in
>
>My best wishes
>Masud
>
>*
>*
>==========================================================
>OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
>------------------------------
>To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options,
>view the archives of oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:
>http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html
>
>To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs:
>http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist
>
>*
>*
>==========================================================
>OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
>------------------------------
>To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options,
>view the archives of oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:
>http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html

*
*
==========================================================
OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
------------------------------
To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options,
view the archives of oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:
http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html

To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs:
http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist

*
*
==========================================================
OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
------------------------------
To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options,
view the archives of oslist at listserv.boisestate.edu:
http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html

To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs:
http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist