Turtles - self-organization

Mon Feb 14 08:29:38 PST 2005

Mayke Wrote: I do agree that the smaller the system is the more obvious
self-organization can be, i.e. the bigger the influence of a single
individual or organizational unit can be. But even in large, slow-moving
organizations people have come up with amazing strategies  - constructive or
destructive - in order to influence their environment.

I am not sure that it much to do with the size of an organization. After
all, how big is big? In a self-organizing world, it is all fractal, so that
even the "smallest" parts have virtually an infinity of space. There is the
old saw about how long is the coast of England (or any island)? The answer,
it turns out is totally dependant upon the unit of measure. If you use a
meter - then the answer would be X,000 meters long. But if the unit of
measure were to be a quark (if a quark even has dimension) the answer might
be pretty close to infinity.  And when it comes to moving an organization in
new and different directions - a tiny touch in the right time and place can
do it. After all, how powerful is that butterfly in Thailand who keeps
changing the weather patterns in California? I think we need to look more
closely at not only the limits of individual "power," but also the
potential. I always find it strange and wonderful that in an Open Space it
is often the case that the lowest person on the organizational totem pole,
who asks what is perceived to be a "dumb question" - can often shift the
entire enterprise. And how did he/she do that?

Harrison

Harrison Owen

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Open Space Training www.openspaceworld.com <http://www.openspaceworld.com/>

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Personal website http://mywebpages.comcast.net/hhowen/index.htm
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-----Original Message-----
From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of Mayke
Wagner, essence
Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 10:53 AM
To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Subject: Re: Turtles - self-organization

I love this discussion!
Here is what I think:

In my opinion, organizations are living systems, since the objects, rules,
procedures, hierarchies, etc. were made by people in the first place. And
how people and teams in organizations handle these objects, rules,
procedures, hierarchies, etc. again depends on the people. I do agree that
the smaller the system is the more obvious self-organization can be, i.e.
the bigger the influence of a single individual or organizational unit can
be. But even in large, slow-moving organizations people have come up with
amazing strategies  - constructive or destructive - in order to influence
their environment. This understanding of a living system in mind has
completely changed my approach to resistance and sabotage in organizational
development processes. I consider resistance and sabotage not as annoying
obstacles but as valuable information and valid strategies of people in this
organization which have to be integrated in the development process in order
for the "change" to come into life.

I am looking forward to your opinions and thoughts,

Mayke
___________________________________________
essence - Beratung, Training, Coaching
Mayke Wagner
Hanser 3
88279 Amtzell
GERMANY

mayke.wagner at t-e-a-m.org
Tel (+49) 07520 / 9232 02
visit us:  <http://www.t-e-a-m.org>

Von: Artur Silva <arturfsilva at yahoo.com>
Antworten an: OSLIST <OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU>
Datum: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 07:15:30 -0800
An: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Betreff: Re: [OSLIST] Turtles (short)

Masud Sheikh <masheikh at cogeco.ca> wrote: 

HO wrote:
"Or put rather bluntly - there is no such thing as a non-self-organizing
system. There are only some mildly deluded folks who think they did the
organizing. Outrageous for sure, and possibly a break with reality, but that
is pretty much where I found myself."

I believe the statement "there is no such thing as a non-self-organizing
system" is true for living systems, but not for non-living systems. For
instance, in any "organization" there are systems of people, who find that
the best team-building may be done around the coffee machine or bar, rather
than in a classroom, teaching "teamwork". There are other systems (e.g. the
financial reporting system) that are non-living. Both the living and
non-living systems interact with - and impact - each other.

Let me stop here, and invite others to join in

Masud - thanks for taking the lead on this.

Harrison - there are two things that I don't understand in this last post
and in some others from you. I think I have already referred to this, but
let's go again.

1. You refer often to Kaufman's conditions for self-organization. Clearly
those conditions are NOT current and they occur only in special situations.
So it seems to me that there is a contradiction between your references to
those conditions and your persistent affirmations that "there is not such
thing as a non-self-organizing-systems". Can you clarify your thoughts about
this please?

2.  I agree with Masud that the statement is true for "living systems". So
when we consider the humans as part of an ecosystem we can see them as a
"living systems". But human organizations are not only "living material".
Masud gave an example with the financial system, but there are others. An
organization is a mix of living people with objects, rules, procedures,
hierarchies, etc that are not "living" in the biological sense. Those rules
and procedures inhibit, in my opinion, their being "living systems". That's
is precisely the reason why we talk about opening the space - the fact that
quite often in organizations and even in communities the space is pretty
closed. Any comments?

Artur

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