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<title>Re: [OSLIST] Turtles - self-organization</title>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:red'>Mayke Wrote:</span></font> I do agree that
the smaller the system is the more obvious self-organization can be, i.e. the
bigger the influence of a single individual or organizational unit can be. But
even in large, slow-moving organizations people have come up with amazing
strategies - constructive or destructive - in order to influence their
environment.</p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:red'>I am not sure that it much to do with the
size of an organization. After all, how big is big? In a self-organizing world,
it is all fractal, so that even the “smallest” parts have virtually
an infinity of space. There is the old saw about how long is the coast of </span></font><font
color=red face=Arial><span style='font-family:Arial;color:red'>England</span></font><font
color=red face=Arial><span style='font-family:Arial;color:red'> (or any
island)? The answer, it turns out is totally dependant upon the unit of
measure. If you use a meter – then the answer would be X,000 meters long.
But if the unit of measure were to be a quark (if a quark even has dimension)
the answer might be pretty close to infinity. And when it comes to moving
an organization in new and different directions – a tiny touch in the
right time and place can do it. After all, how powerful is that butterfly in </span></font><font
color=red face=Arial><span style='font-family:Arial;color:red'>Thailand</span></font><font
color=red face=Arial><span style='font-family:Arial;color:red'> who keeps
changing the weather patterns in </span></font><font color=red face=Arial><span
style='font-family:Arial;color:red'>California</span></font><font color=red
face=Arial><span style='font-family:Arial;color:red'>? I think we need to look
more closely at not only the limits of individual “power,” but also
the potential. I always find it strange and wonderful that in an Open Space it
is often the case that the lowest person on the organizational totem pole, who
asks what is perceived to be a “dumb question” – can often shift
the entire enterprise. And how did he/she do that?</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:red'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:red'>Harrison</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:red'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:red'> </span></font></p>
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12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:red'> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=2
color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:red'>Harrison Owen</span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=2
color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:red'>Potomac, Maryland 20845</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=2
color=red face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:red'>Phone 301-365-2093</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'></X-SIGSEP><font
size=3 color=red face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:red'><!--StartFragment --><X-SIGSEP>Open Space Training <a
href="http://www.openspaceworld.com/" eudora=autourl>www.openspaceworld.com</a>
</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
color=red face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:red'>Open
Space Institute <a href="http://www.openspaceworld.org" eudora=autourl>www.openspaceworld.org</a></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> </span></font><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>OSLIST</span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> [mailto:</span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>OSLIST</span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU]
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Mayke Wagner, essence<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Sunday, February 13, 2005
10:53 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> </span></font><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>OSLIST</span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Turtles -
self-organization</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:
.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>I love
this discussion!<br>
Here is what I think:<br>
<br>
In my opinion, organizations are living systems, since the objects, rules,
procedures, hierarchies, etc. were made by people in the first place. And how
people and teams in organizations handle these objects, rules, procedures,
hierarchies, etc. again depends on the people. I do agree that the smaller the
system is the more obvious self-organization can be, i.e. the bigger the
influence of a single individual or organizational unit can be. But even in
large, slow-moving organizations people have come up with amazing strategies
- constructive or destructive - in order to influence their environment.
This understanding of a living system in mind has completely changed my
approach to resistance and sabotage in organizational development processes. I
consider resistance and sabotage not as annoying obstacles but as valuable
information and valid strategies of people in this organization which have to
be integrated in the development process in order for the "change" to
come into life.<br>
<br>
I am looking forward to your opinions and thoughts,<br>
<br>
Mayke<br>
___________________________________________<br>
essence - Beratung, Training, Coaching<br>
Mayke Wagner<br>
Hanser 3<br>
88279 Amtzell<br>
GERMANY<br>
<br>
mayke.wagner@t-e-a-m.org<br>
Tel (+49) 07520 / 9232 02<br>
visit us: <http://www.t-e-a-m.org></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:
.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Von: </span></b>Artur Silva
<arturfsilva@yahoo.com><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Antworten an: </span></b>OSLIST
<OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Datum: </span></b>Sun, 13 Feb 2005 07:15:30
-0800<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>An: </span></b>OSLIST@LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Betreff: </span></b>Re: [OSLIST] Turtles
(short)</span></font></p>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><i><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold;
font-style:italic'>Masud Sheikh <masheikh@cogeco.ca></span></font></i></b>
wrote: </p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>HO wrote:<br>
"Or put rather bluntly - there is no such thing as a non-self-organizing<br>
system. There are only some mildly deluded folks who think they did the<br>
organizing. Outrageous for sure, and possibly a break with reality, but that<br>
is pretty much where I found myself."<br>
<br>
I believe the statement "there is no such thing as a non-self-organizing<br>
system" is true for living systems, but not for non-living systems. For<br>
instance, in any "organization" there are systems of people, who find
that<br>
the best team-building may be done around the coffee machine or bar, rather<br>
than in a classroom, teaching "teamwork". There are other systems
(e.g. the<br>
financial reporting system) that are non-living. Both the living and<br>
non-living systems interact with - and impact - each other.<br>
<br>
Let me stop here, and invite others to join in</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:
.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
Masud - thanks for taking the lead on this.<br>
<br>
Harrison - there are two things that I don't understand in this last post and
in some others from you. I think I have already referred to this, but let's go
again.<br>
<br>
1. You refer often to Kaufman's conditions for self-organization. Clearly those
conditions are NOT current and they occur only in special situations. So it
seems to me that there is a contradiction between your references to those
conditions and your persistent affirmations that "there is not such thing
as a non-self-organizing-systems". Can you clarify your thoughts about
this please?<br>
<br>
2. I agree with Masud that the statement is true for "living
systems". So when we consider the humans as part of an ecosystem we can
see them as a "living systems". But human organizations are not only
"living material". Masud gave an example with the financial system,
but there are others. An organization is a mix of living people with objects,
rules, procedures, hierarchies, etc that are not "living" in the
biological sense. Those rules and procedures inhibit, in my opinion, their
being "living systems". That's is precisely the reason why we talk
about opening the space - the fact that quite often in organizations and even in
communities the space is pretty closed. Any comments?<br>
<br>
Artur<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font></p>
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style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
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