Turtles (short)

[Mikk Sarv]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Harrison Owen" <hhowen at comcast.net>
To: <OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 5:40 PM
Subject: Re: Turtles (short)


> Masud
>
> I see where you are going, but would suggest that the real issue is what I
> might call "degrees of freedom" -- or maybe better the "size" of the
> possibility space. With financial systems, for example, it is quite true
> that the system, as originally put in place, was designed by someone -- or
> some several ones. The intent is always to limit the degrees of freedom or
> possibility space. This is known as having "tight financial controls."
> However, once the system in place and begins to interact with all the
> environmental factors known as users, auditors, government rules and
> regulations, rise and fall of the currency markets etc. -- the process of
> self-organization begins again as the total system (including all of the
> above -- users -- and much more)interact and "search for fitness." I am
not
> an accountant, but as a user of some fairly large systems (I used to work
> for the US federal government), I have never seen a system that worked the
> way it was designed, and in fact if attempts were made to totally restrict
> the degrees of freedom, the system typically shut down (died).
>
> I believe we can see the same sort of thing operative in other, supposedly
> man-made, "closed systems." For instance software. You might think that
the
> degrees of freedom in a piece of software would be small to non-existent,
> and yet there is always a shakedown period as the system "stabilizes." And
> some (most) of them never fully hit stasis. By the way, I don't really
think
> there is any such thing as a "CLOSED SYSTEM" either.
>
> So from where I sit, it is still true that there is no such thing as a
> non-self-organizing system. However there are large differences in degrees
> of freedom (possibility space). With a small space, the ongoing adaptive
> process may appear miniscule, but it is still taking place. And when it
> stops, the system is dead -- just like the organic counterparts.
>
> Harrison
>
> Harrison Owen
> 7808 River Falls Drive
> Potomac, Maryland   20845
> Phone 301-365-2093
>
> Open Space Training www.openspaceworld.com
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>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of Masud
> Sheikh
> Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 8:50 AM
> To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
> Subject: Re: Turtles (short)
>
> HO wrote:
> "Or put rather bluntly - there is no such thing as a non-self-organizing
> system. There are only some mildly deluded folks who think they did the
> organizing. Outrageous for sure, and possibly a break with reality, but
that
> is pretty much where I found myself."
>
> I believe the statement "there is no such thing as a non-self-organizing
> system" is true for living systems, but not for non-living systems. For
> instance, in any "organization" there are systems of people, who find that
> the best team-building may be done around the coffee machine or bar,
rather
> than in a classroom, teaching "teamwork". There are other systems (e.g.
the
> financial reporting system) that are non-living. Both the living and
> non-living systems interact with - and impact - each other.
>
> Let me stop here, and invite others to join in
>
> My best wishes
> Masud
>
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