Turtles (short)

[Harrison Owen]

Masud

I see where you are going, but would suggest that the real issue is what I
might call "degrees of freedom" -- or maybe better the "size" of the
possibility space. With financial systems, for example, it is quite true
that the system, as originally put in place, was designed by someone -- or
some several ones. The intent is always to limit the degrees of freedom or
possibility space. This is known as having "tight financial controls."
However, once the system in place and begins to interact with all the
environmental factors known as users, auditors, government rules and
regulations, rise and fall of the currency markets etc. -- the process of
self-organization begins again as the total system (including all of the
above -- users -- and much more)interact and "search for fitness." I am not
an accountant, but as a user of some fairly large systems (I used to work
for the US federal government), I have never seen a system that worked the
way it was designed, and in fact if attempts were made to totally restrict
the degrees of freedom, the system typically shut down (died).

I believe we can see the same sort of thing operative in other, supposedly
man-made, "closed systems." For instance software. You might think that the
degrees of freedom in a piece of software would be small to non-existent,
and yet there is always a shakedown period as the system "stabilizes." And
some (most) of them never fully hit stasis. By the way, I don't really think
there is any such thing as a "CLOSED SYSTEM" either.

So from where I sit, it is still true that there is no such thing as a
non-self-organizing system. However there are large differences in degrees
of freedom (possibility space). With a small space, the ongoing adaptive
process may appear miniscule, but it is still taking place. And when it
stops, the system is dead -- just like the organic counterparts.

Harrison

Harrison Owen
7808 River Falls Drive
Potomac, Maryland   20845
Phone 301-365-2093

Open Space Training www.openspaceworld.com
Open Space Institute www.openspaceworld.org
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-----Original Message-----
From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of Masud
Sheikh
Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 8:50 AM
To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Subject: Re: Turtles (short)

HO wrote:
"Or put rather bluntly - there is no such thing as a non-self-organizing
system. There are only some mildly deluded folks who think they did the
organizing. Outrageous for sure, and possibly a break with reality, but that
is pretty much where I found myself."

I believe the statement "there is no such thing as a non-self-organizing
system" is true for living systems, but not for non-living systems. For
instance, in any "organization" there are systems of people, who find that
the best team-building may be done around the coffee machine or bar, rather
than in a classroom, teaching "teamwork". There are other systems (e.g. the
financial reporting system) that are non-living. Both the living and
non-living systems interact with - and impact - each other.

Let me stop here, and invite others to join in

My best wishes
Masud

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