Turtles (short)

[Alan Klein]

If the people involved in the system are not organizing it, then who is? If
the response is "the boss", then the boss is part of the system and so the
system is still self-organizing. And, in any case, each member (at least
each living member) of the system is making ongoing choices about how they
will organize themselves in response to the rest of the system.

Physical objects are part of the scenery. Sure they form limitations on the
choices we make, but half of an infinite range of choices is still an
infinite range of choices!

~Alan Klein

-----Original Message-----
From: Artur Silva
1. You refer often to Kaufman's conditions for self-organization. Clearly
those conditions are NOT current and they occur only in special situations.
So it seems to me that there is a contradiction between your references to
those conditions and your persistent affirmations that "there is not such
thing as a non-self-organizing-systems". Can you clarify your thoughts about
this please?

2.  I agree with Masud that the statement is true for "living systems". So
when we consider the humans as part of an ecosystem we can see them as a
"living systems". But human organizations are not only "living material".
Masud gave an example with the financial system, but there are others. An
organization is a mix of living people with objects, rules, procedures,
hierarchies, etc that are not "living" in the biological sense. Those rules
and procedures inhibit, in my opinion, their being "living systems". That's
is precisely the reason why we talk about opening the space - the fact that
quite often in organizations and even in communities the space is pretty
closed. Any comments?

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