Survival of the Cooperative

Spady's ejespady at mydurango.net
Thu Feb 10 09:40:56 PST 2005


I guess you are saying that I should just keep my mouth shut.  I agree with you that we don't all have to agree and of course we won't.  I, too, was upset by someone stating that they KNOW that long term democracy will not work in this case.  Talk about "oversimplfied"!!  Not only do I disagree, but I don't think one person's beliefs should be written as fact.

I'll go back to staying out of this stuff ........and just get what I need to learn about OST from this list.  It's clear that it is not open to share......
Judy

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Agneta Setterwall 
  To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU 
  Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 10:26 AM
  Subject: Re: Survival of the Cooperative


  Judy, 
  When I read what you have written I feel upset. I feel upset and hurt by the irony, the aggressiveness, the selfrighteousness, the oversimplyfied statements. 
  We are, I believe, many many persons in the world who in a way love US, and at the same time are frightened by the role US plays today. We are also frightened by terrorism and by fundamentalism of all kinds. All kinds.
  We don´t have to agree at all on this list. And, we have to refrain from verbal tricks if we want this list to be the global open space where we can handle complexity together.

  I might be wrong.
  Agneta Setterwall, Sweden


  Spady's wrote: 
    Funda writes:
    "a long term democracy (at least freedom of expression for everybody) can not be created by force."

    The big question I have for you to think about is...Who has force been used against in the Iraq war?  It isn't the people who are trying to build the democratic society.  The U.S. and it's allies forced the tyrants out so that the Iraqi people are no longer supressed and can live in long term democracy.  So.......how can you say that it won't work??  You have to break it down to who the force is being used on.  Can the tyrants like Saddam freely express themselves??........absolutely not.  He gave up that right when he chose to kill innocent people.

    I guess "time will tell" if the long term democracy works in Iraq but at this point, I don't think you can accurately conclude that it won't......

    As for your comments on why we can't discuss 'this and that' and all have a group hug........do you honestly think that's even possible with people like Saddam??.....or UBL? Please.........

    Judy

      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Funda Oral 
      To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU 
      Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 6:57 AM
      Subject: Survival of the Cooperative


      from the essay :

      "The researchers at the Santa Fe Institute have denominated self-organizing
      systems Complex Adaptive Systems. The key word is adaptive, which indicates
      that the system, be that molecular or human, is constantly adapting to its
      internal and external environment seeking a better fit, a better way of
      getting along in the world. This might also be called learning, for the
      system is not only finding better ways to be, it is also remembering them
      for future use. In short a body of knowledge is being built which will
      enable higher levels of survival."

      "Collective consciousness in this case is not to be confused with deep shared consciousness manifest in the Jungian archetypes, but rather a functional intelligence that appeared capable of observing a situation, consider the options, and then take concerted action – all without a word spoken and in an incredibly short period of time (minutes). How this works, I don’t have a clue, but in the situations where the collective consciousness became manifest I found myself reminded of the behavioral shift of the ant colony when they moved from random search to well ordered columns, bringing home the tart, all of which seemed to happen with the snap of a finger. I suppose if ants can do it, humans might be capable as well."



      some reflections on wars, cooperation, open space etc ;



      I agree that a sudden need or crises can cause quick self organisation and a shift in collective consciousness  (i.e wars, natural disasters).

      However self organisation for a quick reaction doesn't mean that a healthy community ( democracy, peace, long term cooperation, civilization)

      has been built.



      I studied business and not psychology or sociology but from life experiences i know that "fear" prevents a open space, a long term democracy 

      (at least freedom of expression for everybody) can not be created by force.



      Wars are different then natural disasters as they are made by human.



      Survival should be the easiest achievement when a group of human being comes together. So the big question for me is why we are still at that level 

      after 14M years? why we can not discuss how we can develop alltogether in peace, joy and richness? why we don't discuss how we can 

      establish a better cooperation, better ways of exchange among different cultures, religions, regions, countries etc ?  



      Funda



        

        



        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Jack Ricchiuto 
        To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE..EDU 
        Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 4:20 AM
        Subject: Re: Survival of the Cooperative


        Reflecting the way ecologists today are starting to redefine "fitness", author Robert Ulanowicz defines fitness as “the ability of a species to play a role in the web of ecological processes.”


        Jack

        ~~~~~~~~~~
        jack ricchiuto
        two.one.six/three.seven.three/seven.four.seven.five
        www.designinglife.com / www.appreciativeleadership..org 


          ------------Original Message------------
          From: Steve Gawron <gawron at megsinet.net>
          To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
          Date: Wed, Feb-9-2005 6:02 PM
          Subject: Re: Survival of the Cooperative
          Hello Don and all,

          There is an interesting book by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi which supports that
          concept of survival of ideas in a Darwinian context.  The book is called
          "Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience", ISBN 0-06-016253-8

          In brief, a "flow" experience is akin to reading a book you cannot put down.
          I hope you enjoy the read.

          Steve Gawron

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Don Ferretti" <dferrett at placer.ca.gov>
          To: <OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU>
          Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 4:34 PM
          Subject: Survival of the Cooperative


          > I can give you a lot of detail to back this up but I will not take up
          > air time here to do that. I just wanted to say that I know for a fact
          > that the "survival of the fittest" mantra was not even spoken by Darwin.
          > But, his whole body of work seems to have been boiled down to that idea.
          > I have my theory as to why that is. But, if you really look at all of
          > that work, the role of cooperation, adaptation and flexibility  plays a
          > much more important role. We did not make it this far through
          > competition, but through pervasive cooperation.
          >
          > http://placer.networkofcare.org
          > www.placer.ca.gov/cfc
          > First 5 - Placer CFC
          > Don Ferretti - Director
          > 530.886.1824
          > 530.886.1810 (fax)
          >
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