Open Space & Anti-Americanism

Tue Feb 8 11:58:06 PST 2005

Hello Masud and all,

First, I appreciate your thoughts as expressed in your e-mail.  I would like
to respond to your questions.

1) Can open space be opened by force?
  If open space needed to be opened at all, then it would not by definition
be opened in the first place.  The example you gave of a CEO and consultant
is not one I share.  Whatever the actions taken by the consultant on behalf
of the CEO, the CEO still owns the problem.  If he does not correct a
dysfunctional department, he will soon be relieved of his responsibilities
by the shareholders and stakeholders of his company.  The consultant may or
may not join him.
  In the case you made for unilateralist, it was the United Nations who
warned Saddam to comply with the consent of the members nations.  When he
did not comply, it was a small group of U.N. member nations lead by the U.S.
who acted upon the U.N. edict.  Opposed by some members, but  hardly,
unilateral.

2) ... does not loyalty to American ideals demand dissent of policies that
disregard those ideals.
You might misunderstand American democracy.  Our democracy is based on the
premise that if a majority of its citizens disagree with the leaders and
their actions, they have the right to change those leaders.  If you look at
last November's election, a majority of the citizens agreed with the current
leadership.  There was much dissention but the citizens were free to choose
and spoke through voting.

I looked up the definition of fatwa on this site:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatwa
I quote, a fatwa ... " is a legal pronouncement in Islam, issued by a
religious law specialist on a specific issue. Usually a fatwa is issued at
the request of an individual or a judge to settle a question where fiqh,
Islamic jurisprudence, is unclear. A scholar capable of issuing fataawa is
known as a Mufti.

Because there is no central Islamic priesthood, there is also no unanimously
accepted method to determine who can issue a fatwa and who cannot, leading
some Islamic scholars to complain that too many people feel qualified to
issue fatwas."

There is no parallel to this style of edict in the American form of
democracy.  As a citizen, are guaranteed by our constitution the right to
accept or ignore any edict whether it be the government, corporation, any
religious leader, or other citizen.  You must, however, respect the right of
the other citizens to present their opinions.  In our country, disputes are
handled under a judicial system.  While it is often inefficient, it
guarantees that all parties concerned have a right to voice their opinion on
the matter.

The United States was born when a tyrant, King George of England, tried to
impose his will upon people in America.  Even then, there were people who
dissented of behalf of King George. (we call them Canadians)  We still
respect their choices and consider them our friends though we often
disagree.  The fatwa you cited sound more akin to a statement of King George
not of Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, or Patrick Henry.

The people of Iraq will be in charge of their country when the Americans
leave.  They will own their problems and hopefully will seek help from all
nations around the world.

As a free and democratic nation, the U.S. has made many mistakes.  All we
seek is to share our liberty.  I look forward to future discussions with
you.

Steve Gawron

----- Original Message -----
From: "Masud Sheikh" <masheikh at cogeco.ca>
To: <OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 11:57 AM
Subject: FW: Open Space & Anti-Americanism

> Steve,
> My questions below are not rhetorical, and I do hope that you will take
them
> in the spirit in which I am trying to ask them:
>
> 1) Can space be opened by force?
> That sounds a lot like a CEO telling a consultant "that department is
> managed and controlled very badly. I want you to open up space in it"
>
> Of course, in the case of American involvement in Iraq, the related
question
> is "Was Bush authorized to behave like the CEO of planet Earth?"
>
> Do remember that most of the criticism has been about American
> administration's unilateralism.
>
> 2) While I empathize with American nationalism (fuelled and converted by
> Bush & Co after 9/11 as support of American policy), does not loyalty to
> American ideals demand dissent of policies that disregard those ideals?
>
> My opinions:
> 1) I am afraid that the right thing was not done before something horrible
> went wrong. Abandoning Afghanistan after the Soviets were driven out (at
the
> end of 1980s) was the wrong thing to do in Afghanistan. Manipulating
Islamic
> religious feelings (and American policy was at the forefront of doing
that)
> was the wrong thing to do in fighting the Soviets. Similarly, manipulating
> post 9/11 fearful feelings of American citizens is wrong now.
>
> 2) Re Iraq, it is still too early to say what the long-term impact of
these
> elections will be. Also, the recently held election was not the preference
> of Bush & Co. They were forced into accepting these by Ayatollah Sistani,
> called "Ayatollah Democracy" in articles last year. Here is the
Ayatollah's
> Fatwa insisting on elections:
>
> "The Occupational Authority in no way has the authority to choose members
> for the drafting committee of a Basic Law. In no way does any authority
> exist for such a drafting committee to represent the lofty interests of
the
> Iraqi people or to translate into law the wishes and basic identity of the
> Iraqi people, the pillars of which are the glorious faith of Islam and
> society's values. The current [American] plan discussed is fundamentally
> unacceptable.
>
> Accordingly, popular elections are necessary so that each Iraqi who is of
> voting age can choose his representative for a constituent assembly. And
> then any Basic Law written by this assembly must be approved by a national
> referendum. It is incumbent upon all believers with their utmost
commitment
> to demand this, and asserting the truth of this path is the best way that
> they can participate in this process."
>
> He sounds like a re-incarnated founding father of America.
>
> Take care,
> Masud Sheikh
>
> The world will be saved by individuals of integrity freely joining
together
> - Buckminster Fuller
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Gawron [mailto:gawron at megsinet.net]
> Sent: February 7, 2005 6:22 PM
> Subject: Re: Open Space & Anti-Americanism
>
> Hello David and all,
>
> As an American, I find it counter-productive to compare giving birth to
> democracy and removing a tyrant who killed millions of his country's
> citizens to anything but furthering the cause of peace.  Only an ostrich
> sticks his head in the sand and expects danger to go away.
>
> It is NOT "my country right or wrong", it is "Doing the right thing before
> something horrible goes wrong."  As an American, I would have rather we
did
> not get involved in Iraq, but on the same hand I am glad we lent a hand to
> citizens in Iraq and Afghanistan to allow them to form their own destiny.
>
> As the open space adage goes, whoever shows up is the right persons to be
> there.  As an American, I am glad we responded to a call for peace in that
> region.  If disagreeing with this is considered anti-American, then you
are
> entitled to your opinion.  But I still feel, Saddam and his henchmen were
> and are a destabilizing influence on Peace in that region and the rest of
> the world.  You can't have it both ways.
>
> I will go back to lurking now,
>
> Steve Gawron
>
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