Dangerous idea?
Harrison Owen
hhowen at comcast.net
Sat Nov 20 18:26:20 PST 2004
Doug -- I guess I have to say that if we were to resort to viruses, the
other guys would have won. I think we might spend our time better attempting
to create conditions under which the terrorist behavior is no longer
supported by those they (the terrorists) purport to champion. On the face of
it I see little difference between a beheading of some poor soul and a US
Marine blowing away a wounded Iraqi prisoner. Barbaric symptoms all.
Harrison
Harrison Owen
7808 River Falls Drive
Potomac, Maryland 20845
Phone 301-365-2093
Open Space Training www.openspaceworld.com
Open Space Institute www.openspaceworld.org
Personal website http://mywebpages.comcast.net/hhowen/index.htm
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-----Original Message-----
From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of Douglas D.
Germann, Sr.
Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2004 8:21 PM
To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Subject: Dangerous idea?
Hi--
I had this thought yesterday, and was going to put it on my blog, but then
I thought perhaps it is too dangerous an idea to post too widely.
It is attempting to harness a negative in the service of positive, but it
still repulses almost as much as it attracts. Is there a seed of good here
that could be developed? I know the people on this list can be trusted to
find it if it exists....
Could we as internet community deny these terrorist
websites access to the world of publicity by using viruses,
or something like them, in a positive way?
(I had in mind the sites that are posting the videos of beheadings, and
similar atrocities.)
:-Doug.
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>From Sat Nov 20 21:42:02 2004
Message-Id: <SAT.20.NOV.2004.214202.0500.>
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 21:42:02 -0500
Reply-To: pculhane at magma.ca
To: OSLIST <OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU>
From: Phil Culhane <pculhane at magma.ca>
Subject: Re: Dangerous idea?
In-Reply-To: <000501c4cf71$7fdb7780$6501a8c0 at harrison>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Amen to that.
I wish more Americans would stop to ask why some Saudi Moslems decided to
ram some planes into some buildings...and why other Moslems around the world
cheered - rather than sending more troops, more bombs.
>From the point of view of much of the rest of the world, we (speaking for
first world North Americans as a stereotypical group now, forgive me), are
more than incredibly lucky...we're incredibly greedy! So much wealth, and
all we can focus on doing is expropriating most of what's left for
ourselves.
I often wonder how much "terrorism" would remain if all that money being
poured into the U.S. War Machine were poured into clean water, health and
education around the world - not trying to Americanize everyone, but just
using our position of incredible good fortune to help the rest of humanity
enjoy their lives, their ways.
-----Original Message-----
From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU] On Behalf Of Harrison
Owen
Sent: November 20, 2004 9:26 PM
To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Subject: Re: Dangerous idea?
Doug -- I guess I have to say that if we were to resort to viruses, the
other guys would have won. I think we might spend our time better attempting
to create conditions under which the terrorist behavior is no longer
supported by those they (the terrorists) purport to champion. On the face of
it I see little difference between a beheading of some poor soul and a US
Marine blowing away a wounded Iraqi prisoner. Barbaric symptoms all.
Harrison
Harrison Owen
7808 River Falls Drive
Potomac, Maryland 20845
Phone 301-365-2093
Open Space Training www.openspaceworld.com
Open Space Institute www.openspaceworld.org
Personal website http://mywebpages.comcast.net/hhowen/index.htm
OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
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>From Sat Nov 20 20:13:56 2004
Message-Id: <SAT.20.NOV.2004.201356.0800.>
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 20:13:56 -0800
Reply-To: chris at chriscorrigan.com
To: OSLIST <OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU>
From: Chris Corrigan <chris.corrigan at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Givens: some comments
In-Reply-To: <a06020404bdc50cc3681c at 80.176.234.159>
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On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 15:27:40 +0000, kerry napuk <k at napuk.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Chris
>
> Your handling of "givens" is positively clever and thanks for posting
> it. However, does not the objective remain to remove the "givens"
> from the agenda and allow free exchange and dialogue?
>
Well yes and no. It is not up to me to tell the client whether or not
their attachment to givens is a bad thing. Yesterday I facilitated a
very high profile meeting hosted by our provincial premier and of
course it was loaded with givens. We weren't using OST, but I tried
to open as much space as I could.
If the client wants free exchange and dialogue then yes, we discuss
constarints on that. In the example of the streatgic planning OST I
facilitated, the client wanted both dialogue and and information
useful to the immediate strategic needs of the organization. The
design didn't prohibit anything; the leadership just said "talk about
anything you want, but if you want us to include it in the plan, find
a way to fit it into the five streams." They didn't define those
streams beforehand, other than categorically "Finances" and as a
result of the conversations and the way the group chose to sort it's
work, the fields of each of these categories became defined -
perfectly. That's why I think of it as an elegant design.
> What do you do when the sponsor hangs onto "givens" and refuses to
> yield and you know in your heart of hearts that it will damage or
> undermine the event?
>
Like you, I'll offer another process. But if the potential damage is
serious, then I don't do the event. I have an ethical sense of what a
legitimate engagement process is and when it crosses the line for me I
back off. If people are being "led down the garden path," that is,
invited to do something under false pretenses, I won't facilitate that
at all.
Cheers,
Chris
> Regards
>
> Kerry
>
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--
-------------------------
CHRIS CORRIGAN
Consultation - Facilitation
Open Space Technology
Weblog: http://www.chriscorrigan.com/parkinglot
Site: http://www.chriscorrigan.com
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>From Sat Nov 20 20:26:44 2004
Message-Id: <SAT.20.NOV.2004.202644.0800.>
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 20:26:44 -0800
Reply-To: chris at chriscorrigan.com
To: OSLIST <OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU>
From: Chris Corrigan <chris.corrigan at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Givens -- Again : some comments
In-Reply-To: <EJEFLAMBAOKPLBMDFNDGOELECCAA.dlgottlieb at chello.nl>
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In a complicated way, I think givens can be very empowering. But they
have to be real givens.
I think the last time I talked about this a couple of years ago, I
used the story of people inventing the airplane. The Wright brothers
had a good sense of the givens of flight: gravity, air pressure, lift
and power etc. They knew that they had to combine a certain set of
technologies in a way which allowed them to exceed these givens in
order to fly. And they did it.
Coincidentally, the week before the Wright brothers flew their plane,
the editors of the New York Times published an editorial which stated
in essence that powered human flight was an impossibility.
Also coincidentally, the editors of the New York Times did not invent
the airplane.
What I have always taken from this story is the value of using givens
to transform one's thinking. By studying and understanding all the
things that prevent humans from flying, the Wrights produced a
solution that permitted flight. The Times editors on the other hand
were pitching a belief as a given and they were proved wrong almost
instanly. A story like that will keep you on the ground for ever.
I have no problem identifying and naming real givens in order to
overcome them. I don't like to "create" givens that limit the
endeavour in order to maintain the illusion of comfort and control.
People are capable of the most amazing transformations. Telling them
otherwise is disingenuous. They'll prove you wrong everytime and take
to the air while you remain rooted on the ground.
Chris
-------------------------
CHRIS CORRIGAN
Consultation - Facilitation
Open Space Technology
Weblog: http://www.chriscorrigan.com/parkinglot
Site: http://www.chriscorrigan.com
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