Languages and Translations (was: Languages in Europe...)

[Artur Ferreira da Silva]

Hi Joelle and Lucy (and all)

Joelle wrote:

>Artur-- (...)
>I was quite interested to observe that the Brazilians listed only roles of
>family and relationships. I suspect, that this is because family and
>interpersonal relationships are far more important in Latin cultures. But
>I also wonder
>if the word which was used to translate "roles," (I think something like
>"rolas," ) might have a more-specific meaning in Portugese, so the
>response might
>have been shaped by the word that was used. What do you think?

And Lucy replyied:

>joelle,  the translation is really an important detail in any place of the
>word.   really the bad translation of "role" transformed a word that means
>"paper" or "part of" (he plays the part of the monster) into a swearword
>used for some cheap persons speaking about penis. complicated, you see?

This is really an amazing story about languages and translations. May I use
that story for other purposes and quote you both?

I would like to add some comments:

1. I have decided to wait for an eventual answer from Lucy, as I had the
idea that "rola" could have in Brasil this slang meaning, but I was not
sure. "rola" is indeed a white bird  (turtle-dove, says my Dictionary) that
is used in slang Portugues to refer only to "female brests", but I was
almost sure of once hearing it in Brasil with the meaning Lucy clarified.

2. This contains other lessons. Translators are often not very good,
especially if they don't know the subject they are trying to traslate. And
I have noticed often that, in such cases, they don't say "I can't translate
that". They will chose - especially in oral translation" - a "similar
word". In this case with devastating effects... I suposed that the
Brasilians, confused, tryed to give an answer... as they could... So, I
suspect your conclusion, was not necessarily correct, Joelle.

3. But even if the translator knows the meaning of the word he/she can
often do a "correct
word-translation" that is still useless. "Role" translates into Portugues,
as Lucy pointed out, as "papél", plural "papéis" (the Spanish "papeles").
The point is that "papel" also means "paper", like in "a sheet of paper". I
wonder what the Brasilians would answer to this possibility, namely if they
were low class and never heard of "papeis" in this sense....

4. Contextual translation, done by someone that knows the subject, would
understant the what should be translated was not "roles" but "social roles"
giving "papéis sociais" that can not, of course, be confused with sheets of
papers.

5. Now imagine what would happen if this was a conversation between an Arab
and a Juif mediated by an American President, with the help of a translator
without an "absolutely perfect knowledge" of BOTH languages. Terrible, I
suspect.

6. My conclusion - if you era "broadcasting" or publishing a book, good
traslations can be useful
(like in the Brasilian translation of the User's Guide).. But to mediate
"conversations", translations are NEVER a replacement for bi-linguism.

7: I think that people giving training in a foreign language in a different
country, when that training must be mediated  by a translater, must always
ask very seriously what are the qualifications of the translator in the
subject of the training and not only the "translation qualification" in
other subjects.

8. I am sure that I could do a good translation of English to Portuguese in
subjects like management or information systems. But I am affraid to
confess, Joelle, that I would be unable to transslate one of your poems, as
I don't understand poetry in English. And I could very well think that a
turtle-dove was a turtle of some special species...

Regards

Artur

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