are we there yet? (long)

Birgitt Williams birgitt at mindspring.com
Mon Feb 17 10:31:21 PST 2003


Apparently, one of the questions that was asked of Albert Einstein, was
"what is the most important question for a person to answer?". He replied
"to determine for him or herself whether the universe is friendly or
unfriendly".

I believe that all of our core beliefs, beliefs and assumptions are rooted
in how each of us answers this. And in turn, the way that we structure our
experiences and our reality is based on this.

For me, if we can collectively answer that the universe is friendly, we will
achieve what you are seeking in this discussion and we will recognize that
underneath everything, we are already there.

Birgitt

-----Original Message-----
From: OSLIST [mailto:OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU]On Behalf Of Bernd
Weber
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 7:28 AM
To: OSLIST at LISTSERV.BOISESTATE.EDU
Subject: Re: are we there yet? (long)


Dear John,

wonderful to hear that you allready experience situations, where OS is the
"natural" norm for meetings.
I believed, that this such a 'de-conditioning' (see below)should be possible
by OS, but did not experience it yet. 8 years of "social investment" is not
little, but of course not too much.

I am happy about these anarchy/anarchism question of yours and perhaps I can
contribute a useful aspect.

Hierarchy has been sucessful in "forcing" many people into colaboration for
several thousands of years. So I suppose it will not "disappear" very soon,
and in that sens
 we (human-kind) are not there yet.

You wrote: "the power of cultural norms is that they are not spoken. they
are assumed." I agree, and want to mention again (I already did it in this
group some time ago): one of the stronges cultural norms in our (globalized
occidental) culture is logical thinking. It is assumed. Worse: it is a
conditioned reflex. Who of you would be able to give an immediate answer to
the question: which are the four logical axioms? O suppose only people with
philosophical specialization. Nobody teaches and reflects on logics at
schools for everybody. Nobody learns logics at school. But everybody uses
it. Logical thinkin is a MUST without beeing tought. Isn't that remarkable?

In China and Japan the Tao "logics" (Yin-Yang, Tao-Te-King) is taught even
to the little ones at school. So they can select and decide, which one to
apply. We can not. So we are interculturally a lot more handicapped than
they are. Because we can not reflect about something we do not have the
words for.

People say "It's logic!" and  mean: "It's evident. Its not worth thinking
any more about it."By saying "You are not logical in your
argumentation"(especially when feelings seem to be important) men show their
dominace to women. And here we are: Hierarchy's natural procedurs depend on
the existence of logical reflexes of every of its (members') bodies. You
have to have a defined position, if you want to survive in a hierarchy. When
there is a contradiction is is solved by excluding the wrong or subduing the
weaker. And whatever action you do in hierarchy, it has to be founded on a
"cause" (a norm). You can not 'just' decide upon your conscience or
responsability. Either you follow a norm or you follow an order. Military is
the perfect model of a human hierarchy machine.

Men-hierarchy-logics.
If you reflect on there principles of organization and communication, it is
already subversive.  That is the function of not teaching, what is the basis
of our mental and social organization.

The OS principles are NOT logic. They do not define in a "proper" way, what
they are talking about. They permit contradiction in themselves (and
therefore between differnt people).

Yes, I also see that relation between OS, self-organization and anarchy.
order/chaos exclude each other only if you are forced to think in logical
ways, not in living processes (Yin-Yang or dialectics)

You ask: "is there any hope that we will be able to evolve in
healthy, life-giving ways for the majority of human kind?"
I DO believe that we all have this capacity

"and, is liberation from desires and tendencies to dominate over others-be
it individually, in
groups, in nations-is this liberation the path to political structures of
anarchism?"

I think, this would be a necessary  individual contribution of those of us,
who want to walk this path. But it is not THE path; if we translate path as
strategy, it seems clear, that we would need more than only individual
preparation. For example an ongoing dialogue/multilogue. I suppose this is a
part of it. Thank you for opening it. And then, without doubt, the path of
the non-violent warrior would have to develop some more political
organization, because political structures of anarchism are blocked by the
still mutually re-enforcing political structures od men (yeah, I am one of
them) - military, global capitalism organized in mainly hierarchically
structured global players (actually the main global players are +/- 50%
multinational enterprises and 50% national economies/decreasing), and modern
technology/weaponry, all of which are based on the logical axioms, producing
and re-producing permanently in small and big circles what I call
"everyday's trance".

But still: the new difference is: we have now other possibilities to get the
necessary information for sucessful self-organization than the generations
before ever had. And the internal contradictions in hierarchies are
increasing (many big players had to develop matrix structures, do deal with
increasing complexity, which is NOT logical)

There was this IT - democracy thread on this and other lists. I think,
democracy is on one hand a pre-condition for preparing people to the
responsability they have to show in an anarchist society, on the other hand,
anarchism is  for me the fulfillment of living (= participatice) democracy.

Thanks again to bring me in contact with this vision/utopy. I can really
need the positive energy I feel right now, especially in times of
preparation of another war by the already mentioned

military-macho-capitalist-industrial-technology-LOGICAL-complex


Bernd

On Sun, 16 Feb 2003 11:02:37 -0500, john engle wrote:
dear colleagues,

this might be some rambling but perhaps the process of articulating my
reflections and receiving any comments from you will help me. i very much
appreciate this thread about decolonization and also about 'are we there
yet?'.

as i reflect on these issues, particularly the question 'are we there yet?',
i recall what one of my colleagues said to me at the end of our first
haitian regional osonos last june. steven werlin, dean of students at shimer
college in waukegan illinois, a college that uses open space in classrooms,
staff meetings, meetings with people in community etc., "so, do you think
that there will come a time when you convene a group of open space
practitioners like this and simply open the meeting saying, 'welcome,' and
then simply say, 'have fun' and walk away from the group?" he was suggesting
that there might not be any need to talk about principles, to give people a
structure to organize themselves, etc. just simply let it happen, allowing
self-organizing principles full liberty to be lived out.

while i believe that day is years away, if ever, i believe it was an
important question. we already observe that with port au prince-based limye
lavi (light of life) foundation, their is no talk of principles or any
propts during the quarterly open space meetings. the 8 or 9 people present
just get to the office or wherever the meeting is being held and start
posting subjects. the foundation has been using open space for 8 years. not
all staff members have been there for 8 years but it doesn't take more than
one meeting (three consequetive days from 10:00 am to 3:00 pm) to see how it
works and integrate oneself.

the power of cultural norms is that they are not spoken. they are assumed. i
hope that the day will come, even if its not in my lifetime, that when one
goes to a meeting, it will be assumed that people will sit in a circle and
that everyone present will have the opportunity to create the agenda. unlike
today, when people often come to meetings/conferences expecting chairs to be
in rows facing the speaker/presentors, i dream there will be a day when
people will be surprised and bewildered if they show up at a meeting or
conference site and chairs are facing the front.

when this happens, no mention of words like open space will be necessary. it
will be the new norm, that which is assumed. again, maybe this will never
happen. maybe human kind will not evolve to this point because our
obsessions with domination will lead to self-destruction of our species.

this leads me to another subject. i am eager to hear perspectives from you
on this list about this one. assuming that open space principles would
become norm in how people function and that we don't self-destruct as a
species, is the natural social order one of anarchism? a state where local
structures and orders emerge and evolve based on the wishes-passion bound by
responsibility-of members? i have learned in recent months that there is a
big difference between anarchy and anarchism. anarchism has order, as i
understand it. but an order that emerges organically because of the
responsibility that members have taken to determine their unique order. the
uniqueness being is that the structure/order fully respects the individual.
the individual has great liberty and great responsibility.

i will end with sharing the fact that i have found myself saying, when in
political discussions these days, "i believe i am an anarchists." i watch as
one regime or party takes control and becomes guilty of the same things that
they accused their predecessors of. tendencies to seek to dominate over
others seem to be the spoken or unspoken norm in most cultures. except from
being liberated from this (obsession with dominating over others and
concentration of power), is there any hope that we will be able to evolve in
healthy, life-giving ways for the majority of human kind? and, is liberation
from desires and tendencies to dominate over others-be it individually, in
groups, in nations-is this liberation the path to political structures of
anarchism?

i look forward to hearing reflections from others interested in this
subject.

john

http://www.beyondborders.net/experiment.htm

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